22 Dead at VT

Bill Ayotte

I bet in the next three days we will hear that he had a myspace page, listened to "death metal" and hated his parents....Don't forget that he owned a GTA game or two....Clearly, these are the ONLY reasons he would commit such a horrible act....I really can't understand how this happens, it boggles my mind...

shawn474

I guess my feeling about all of this is that right now is not the time for all of us (the public) to speculate on why this person performed such a horrible act. All thoughts and prayers should be focused on grieving for the students who lost their lives and the for students and families whose lives will never ever be the same. A selfish, shameful act for sure; but mostly downright sad.

Shawn

ledhed

Horrible horrible horrible. When I heard this I just didn't understand. I have one friend that goes there and thank God he is ok. Just hard to believe.

Shack - I know what you mean - UT has more people and I can't imagine how I would feel if it happened there. I know so many people there...

Also, I know the rape/double homicide case you are talking about. From the accounts I have heard it is just too gruesome to even think about.



ARGH it is just hard to fathom and just so sad.

aaharvel

A 24 year old Chinese National, non-student, and probably was the one responsible for the previous bomb threats at V-Tech last week to test campus security. Was in possession of two 9mm. handguns with clips and a bullet proof vest. 32 dead, (EDIT - 15-20) wounded. That's the word so far.

Bill Ayotte

I am going to preface this with saying that this is an incredible tragedy....I really wish one of the students would have killed him, and not given him the satisfaction of doing it himself....I can just simply not believe the ineptitude of the school to inform the students of the situation. The response should have been IMMEDIATE.....I know it is easy to say hindsight is 20/20, but this is a MAJOR oversight.....TWO HOURS!!! How does this happen? They sent an e-mail....Who gives a ****? How many people do you know who get up early enough to check their e-mail before they go to work....I don't know any...This just kills me....I guess it has been reported that they couldn't fly the helo in to pick up the wounded because of the winds....Just an awful situation, it infuriates me that the notification was so slow.....I can see a half hour, maybe 45 minutes....Not two hours....I have a feeling that there is going to be a lot of money going into the hands of some of these parents because of that 2 hour lag....God a lot of people died today.......I can't believe this.

polksda

$10 says there will be all sorts of indignant moral outrage from Congress, combined with a plethora of new gun control legislation being proposed.

The left will use any excuse to wrest guns from the hands of law-abiding citizens...

treitz3

I haven't yet read this thread, but I am saddened by the news. This being my homestate.

Virginia is for lovers, not murders.

Dang.

tommyboy

polksda wrote: »

$10 says there will be all sorts of indignant moral outrage from Congress, combined with a plethora of new gun control legislation being proposed.

The left will use any excuse to wrest guns from the hands of law-abiding citizens...

More than 30 innocent people died today in this shooting, and this is all you can think about...:rolleyes:

shack

aaharvel wrote: »

A 24 year old Chinese National, non-student, and probably was the one responsible for the previous bomb threats at V-Tech last week to test campus security. Was in possession of two 9mm. handguns with clips and a bullet proof vest. 32 dead, 51 wounded. That's the word so far.

He chained the doors closed behind him so no one could escape.

I believe there is a Hell and I hope this individual spends the rest of eternity suffering for what he has done. In this case it is the only justice imaginable.

bobman1235

shack wrote: »

He chained the doors closed behind him so no one could escape.

I believe there is a Hell and I hope this individual spends the rest of eternity suffering for what he has done. In this case it is the only justice imaginable.

The only time I ever seriously consider religion is when I hope and pray that there is a hell for peopel like this to suffer in.

danger boy

Wow... what a tragic day for humans. How one or anyone could take the lives of so many innocent people is beyond belief.

This is a weird way of looking for a positive in the face of tragedy.. but I look forward to summer every year.. at least during summer break.. we don't have these senseless school shootings for three months.

I'm not looking to place the blame on anyone or anything.. but how does a person snap to the extent where he has to kill a large amount of people? Where does that come into play? If a person is unhappy in their life, change it.. don't kill people.

I thought I heard it started out as a domestic type of issue... i'm sure we'll hear more about it later.

Demiurge

Sounds like he was jealous of his girlfriend that was supposedly seeing another guy. He killed her and him, and then went on the rampage. They're also saying he may have been on a student VISA.....

Lots of speculation still, but that's the latest.

aaharvel

polksda wrote: »

$10 says there will be all sorts of indignant moral outrage from Congress, combined with a plethora of new gun control legislation being proposed.

The left will use any excuse to wrest guns from the hands of law-abiding citizens...

A full 9 hours, 10 min. after Demi's opening post. I had $10 on this happening much sooner. Not too shabby... :rolleyes:

bobman1235

aaharvel wrote: »

A full 9 hours, 10 min. after Demi's opening post. I had $10 on this happening much sooner. Not too shabby... :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know, the mainstream media would never exploit an event like this and bring up gun control too soon.... Oh wait :

engtaz

It is a shame this took place.

Prayers go out to them,
engtaz

wingnut4772

I must say as well that playing video gamed did not make me WANT to go shoot someone so I agree that it is mostly due to environment, upbringing and just being an evil freaking nut case that someone would do this and it is just awful. Have they ruled out any sort of terrorism related to this?

G-2

This incident is horrible and shows the awful acts people are capable of.

One legally or illegally (since most concealed carry laws don't allow concealed carry on the grounds of educational institutions) armed civilian on campus in either/both of the buildings at Va Tech, may have significantly changed the outcome there, or perhaps not. Unfortunately for 33 souls, no one will ever know.

Enjoy life, and tell those you love, that you love them, and do it often, because life is short.

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

Yeah, I know, the mainstream media would never exploit an event like this and bring up gun control too soon.... Oh wait :

Funny you should post that. I actually heard that crap come rolling out of the journalists mouth as the story was just breaking.

jdhdiggs

On gun control:

Now here's something that I have yet to see reported in the mainstream media. Earlier this year the Virginia General Assembly failed to act on House Bill 1572. The citizens of Virginia are permitted to carry concealed weapons if they get a proper permit from the state government --- unless you are on a college campus. This bill would have allowed college students and employees to carry handguns on campus --- with appropriate permits, of course. It died in subcommittee. After the bill was thrown out up steps Larry Hincker, a spokesman for Virginia Tech, the site of today's carnage, who says "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

So .. how safe did these students and faculty in Norris Hall feel yesterday?

Now nobody can say for certain, but If it had been legal for students, employees or faculty members with permits to carry guns on the campus, is it at all possible that there might be some students alive today who didn't make it through the carnage? Do you think the actions of the Virginia General Assembly stopped the gunman from getting his guns and carrying them to the campus? Of course not. Reports are that the guns had their serial numbers scratched off. The were acquired outside of the normal channels of commerce and illegally carried to the Virginia Tech campus. The law meant nothing to the shooter. It meant something to the victims though, and perhaps that's why there wasn't one person anywhere near the shooter with a gun that might .. just might have been used for self defense.

There are those out there who think that allowing people to carry a concealed weapon on a college campus is an absurd idea. Why so? Just how is a college campus that much different than our society as a whole? Diverse people living together in common environment pursuing different goals. Where's the big difference? What is so special about a college campus that students should not be allowed to own firearms? What if some student in the dormitory had a gun? What if he heard the argument in an adjoining room and had accompanied the student advisor when he went to quell the disturbance? Could that student with a gun have stopped this carnage before it even began? We'll never know. But is there anyone out there who can say for a certainty that the day might have played out quite differently?

Some of the less educated will come forth with lines of thought like "We don't want to return to the wild, wild west." Why not? What research have you put into your clever little "wild wild west" line? Do you know anything about the actual crime rates in the so-called wild west? Would you be surprised to learn that the crime rate in what we now refer to as the "wild wild west" was actually lower than it is in most American cities now? And why would that be? Because people were armed, for one thing. People were armed, and the bad guys knew that people were armed. Tell me ... just what chance do you think a lone gunman would have had in those days in lining up people against a wall and then calmly picking them off one by one. No ... I'll tell you. Slim to none. Oh he might get off a shot or two, but by then he would be the object of some rather intensive target practice.

And let's talk about people with concealed carry permits. Do you think they're dangerous? Do you think they're just wandering around ready to pull their gun and start shooting at the slightest provocation? Again .. check the statistics. People with concealed carry permits are among the most law abiding people in the nation. Oops ... another little preconception shot to hell, so to speak.

Let me ask you another question. In fact, let's set up a hypothetical situation. You're in a class full of people at a university. Let's say that there are 30 people in that room. A predator with a gun walks through the door. He shoots the professor, kills him. He then takes the remainder of the people in the room and lines them up against a wall. He then walks up to the first person and shots them in the head. Now ... let me allow you to change the scenario. We can freeze-frame this situation while you make a decision. Your decision is this: You can put a gun into the hands of one student or a professor in that room, or you can leave things exactly the way they are. What are you going to do? Come on now, let's have it. Which way do you want it? Do you want the predator to be the only one in the room with a gun? Or would you like to have at least the fighting chance that would result if one, maybe two of your classmates had a firearm.

Now believe it or not, there are people out there (we generally call them liberals) who would say; "Oh no, I don't want anyone else to have a gun! They might try to shoot the killer and innocent people might get caught in the crossfire!" Well you can try to find a rational basis for that argument from now until pigs fly, and you will fail. There is no rationality in that argument. It's an argument based in mindless hysteria.

Let's couch the argument a bit differently. Let's say you are the parent of a college student. You get a call from the campus police saying that your child is being held hostage in a classroom on the campus. The hostage-taker has a gun and has already shot one student. The police tell you that they have developed a plan whereby they are going to be able to sneak a gun into the hands of one of the students in the classroom, a student known to the police to be proficient in the use of a handgun. Before the police can take this step they need the unanimous consent of the parents of the students in that class. While you're thinking it over the hostage-taker executes another student. OK ... your decision. What do you say? Are you going to say "No, I don't want any of those students to be armed. I don't care how qualified they are with a gun." Or are you going to allow the gun to be passed to the student.

Now if your answer is that you would allow the gun to be passed to the student, they please explain your rational for the position that the student in question should not have been permitted to have a gun in the first place with a concealed carry permit? You may have difficulty in understanding this, but it really is rather difficult to arm these students after the fact. And insofar as the shooter is concerned ...you do understand that there is no way in hell to have prevented him to come on to that campus with guns once he made up his mind to do so, don't you?

Here's another question for you to ponder. What if the Virginia legislature had passed HB 1572 and it had been signed into law? Then the shooter would have known that there was a strong likelihood that there would be some students, professors and administrators on the campus with a gun. Is there any chance at all that this might have caused the shooter to set aside his plans for carnage? Can you say for a certainty that things would have played out as they did?

G-2

jdhdiggs wrote: »

On gun control:Now here's something...

...played out as they did?

+1000

markmarc

Having had many former students at Columbine on that awful day along with one of my good friends from high school as a teacher, it's tragic that we are already focusing on the killer instead of praying for the innocent victims and their families. By doing this we are already playing into the final hand of the mass murderer. I, for one will not go there. Instead, I'll focus on spontaneous prayer for those that so need it.

Who is willing to join me????

shack

markmarc wrote:

Who is willing to join me????

I have been doing so since yesterday...

I cannot imagine the agony I would have felt if that had happened at the University of Tennessee with my kids living and attending classes on the campus and then seeing it all unfold on TV. My heart aches for the family and friends of those victims.

bknauss

Bill Ayotte wrote: »

I am going to preface this with saying that this is an incredible tragedy....I really wish one of the students would have killed him, and not given him the satisfaction of doing it himself....I can just simply not believe the ineptitude of the school to inform the students of the situation. The response should have been IMMEDIATE.....I know it is easy to say hindsight is 20/20, but this is a MAJOR oversight.....TWO HOURS!!! How does this happen? They sent an e-mail....Who gives a ****? How many people do you know who get up early enough to check their e-mail before they go to work....I don't know any...This just kills me....I guess it has been reported that they couldn't fly the helo in to pick up the wounded because of the winds....Just an awful situation, it infuriates me that the notification was so slow.....I can see a half hour, maybe 45 minutes....Not two hours....I have a feeling that there is going to be a lot of money going into the hands of some of these parents because of that 2 hour lag....God a lot of people died today.......I can't believe this.

Bill - you're contradicting yourself. First you say they no one checks their email before work, then you ask why it took 2 hours to send out the email. In hindsight, maybe the order and timing of actions was not correct, but they did what they thought was best at the time with the info they had. Hell, they thought it was actually someone else who did it and had brought him in for questioning before the second round of shootings.

Please, I ask everyone to focus on the tragedy and the people effected. Second guessing helps nothing. Once the smoke has cleared, the proper people will analyze the situation and learn from it.

Brian Knauss
'04 VT grad

bknauss

A just a couple of personal thoughts on this terrible series of events:

I still can't wrap my head around all of this. I said "WTF" when I heard about the first shooting. But then I came back from lunch and heard about the death toll being 25, and I let out a bunch of explitive ladened sentences. I just can't put into words how I feel. I can't even imagine what the students and families of the fallen are feeling right now.

But even though this has been a horrifying 24 hours, some amazing things have happened. I've seen the students at VT act mature way beyond their age. I saw a group of students worried about the families of the dead having a seat in the basketball collesium for the events happening this afternoon. They are going to be there, but they were more worried about people they didn't even know. And I've seen people all over the world pour their hearts out. UVA painted a bridge on campus in maroon and orange and it said "Hoos for Hokies". Countless colleges are having vigils. A political cartoon showed mascots from area universities huddled around a Hokie bird. It brings a tear to my eye. I just wish the world could come together like this at times other than tragedy.

PhantomOG

bknauss wrote: »

Second guessing helps nothing.

Seriously. How many people get shot and killed each year in the US? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Are we now supposed to assume that each time a shooting takes place police are to immediately assume a rampage serial killer and force a lockdown of the surrounding area? Can you imagine the hysteria caused? :rolleyes:

Second guessing the police now does not help the situation and focuses the attention away from where it should be.

shawn474

Sadly, it seems that it sometimes takes events like these to galvanize communities. What I mean is that when something like this happens, we all seem to take a personal inventory and evaluate what's important to us while grieving for those lost. I can vividly remember after 9/11 driving and people yielding to let others in. A week later it was every man for themself. Let me be clear, I am not comparing this in any way to 9/11. I hope and pray that those who lost their lives rest in peace and that the families of those lost can eventually learn to cope. Additionally, I think that we need to keep in mind the rescue workers, police, etc. whose lives will never be the same after this tragedy.

Finally, some have already began the finger pointing (media outlets are looking for their stories). Let me be clear; Second guessing protocols, action plans and means of communication are futile at this point. All we know is what the media reports at this point. FACTS about this case will take much longer to evolve. I can guarantee that we have action plans, protocols, emergency procedures to cover exactly these scenarios at the university in which I am employed. We practice them every summer. Situations are not as cut and dry as they seem. Please reserve judgement on these individuals until the facts come out. And keep everyone involved in your thoughts and/or prayers.

Shawn

bobman1235

As people in a "society" we have a need to see the purpose or motive in what seems like a random act, and I don't think there is an easy answer for this kind of thing. We don't like to think that 32 people died for no reason other than someone had a mental illness, but... that's all it is. In the coming weeks we're going to hear truckloads of nonsense about gun control, video games, media, campus security, and it's all hot air. Things like this will always happen, and they will always seem meaningless, and we will always try to attribute meaning to them where there is none.

No one likes to think innocent kids died for nothing, but... the world is sad, and there's not always a sound bite that will make it better, or some group to point the finger to and villainize.

ohskigod

you know, I look back at the fact that the Campus Police (and they were fully trained Police Officers) at my alma mater were not even permitted to carry guns when I went to school there. I remember writing a letter for the editorial page of our campus newspaper about how ridiculous I thought it was, and you wouldnt believe the **** I caught for it.

you would have thought I advocating for the **** regime or somthing.

I genuinly feel that there is not a gun control law that could have prevented this. if someone has in in themselves to do something like this, there going to get the gun, hell or high water.

this argument doesnt diminish how much of a tragedy I think this is, but placing blame anywhere other than the lap of the piece of garbage that did the shooting is senseless. Campuses need to find out clearly what hapenned, and make sure everyone LEARNS from it.

BaggedLancer

I'm waiting to hear whether the two 9mm guns he used were obtained legally or illegally. I'm willing to bet they were obtained illegally in which case people can bring up as much crap as they want about gun control but that's not gonna stop people from getting them illegally.

jakelm

BaggedLancer wrote: »

I'm waiting to hear whether the two 9mm guns he used were obtained legally or illegally. I'm willing to bet they were obtained illegally in which case people can bring up as much crap as they want about gun control but that's not gonna stop people from getting them illegally.

Well being the facts are that the serial numbers were scratched off. I would say illegally. But funny thing is he kept reciepts for the guns... I am lost for words.