Times have really changed

hearingimpared

tommyboy wrote:

Ok guys, thats enough...


Will you guys stop stereotyping different generations, its stupid... I really don't understand why this thread was made.

Are you saying that I am stereotyping my son or his generation. I don't think so. This thread was started with facts. . . some took them on as a personal affront to themselves. Me thinks thou doth protest too much! Not you Tommyboy the other guys.

hearingimpared

ledhed wrote:

I am in no way saying that TV is a good thing. But when **** parents don't teach their children anything and instead just act as if they are not in charge for their offspring, kids have to learn something from somewhere. MTV was a poor choice, I'll admit.

And in no way am I putting my problems on someone else. This is nobody's fault except for parents. Part of it is a growing population which causes the percentages to relatively stay the same as can be seen by many studies and thus a small isolated case becomes bigger.

I may have gone overboard, I have no problem admitting that but, to try and solve something or even look at it objectively, multiple views must be realized and all I was trying to do was bring in a view that had not been addressed.

So, for my ultimate .02, It is all in the parenting, as stated many times before.

I'll give you that, "Garbage in garbage out." You have to admit that what was written in the first post is what is going on now compared to what was going on in 1973. NO?

PolkWannabie

The point that most ( from whatever generation ) are missing is ... Regardless of the liklihood, it is possible to be a great parent and have a child grow up to be a total mess ... It is also possible to be a total mess as a parent and have a child grow up to be totally wonderful ...

Some of it is parent related ... Some of it is child related ... Some of it is environment ...

As a parent one does what one can and one hopes that the time spent and lessons passed along stick ... Unlike A/V equipment, there are no guarantees, no extended warranties and no instruction booklets ...

But there are certainly a lot of conflicting opinions ...

tommyboy

hearingimpared wrote:

Are you saying that I am stereotyping my son or his generation. I don't think so. This thread was started with facts. . . some took them on as a personal affront to themselves. Me thinks thou doth protest too much! Not you Tommyboy the other guys.

I thought this thread would be more about stupid lawsuits (IMO, the biggest difference between generations),overprotecting parents and what to do to stop it... instead you guys are yapping about useless **** (I know thats sounds harsh, but I just got home and read this and didn't know where you guys were really going)

bobman1235

I'd just like to point out that I never meant anything towards anyone here who grew up in the 60's. I'm almost exclusively talking about perceptions here, and everyone's getting all bent out of shape about it. The only reason I'm focusing on the 60's is that it's an easy target, and I think a lot of the folks arguing about this grew up in that time period.

The point I've tried to make three times now is that MOST (NOT all) of what you guys are talking about - rampant drug use, crime, underage pregnancy and sex - is NOT worse now than it used to be. It's better, or at best the same. Look up some numbers, some have been posted in this thread. Teenage sex and pregnancy are at some of the lowest rates of the PAST 50 YEARS, no matter what your perception, those are cold hard facts. It' SEEMS worse because we hear about it more, and the news gets big ratings with tragedy and human interest ****.

Everyone stop being so defensive, no one's mocking your generation.

hearingimpared

PolkWannabie wrote:

The point that most ( from whatever generation ) are missing is ... Regardless of the liklihood, it is possible to be a great parent and have a child grow up to be a total mess ... It is also possible to be a total mess as a parent and have a child grow up to be totally wonderful ...

Some of it is parent related ... Some of it is child related ... Some of it is environment ...

As a parent one does what one can and one hopes that the time spent and lessons passed along stick ... Unlike A/V equipment, there are no guarantees and no extended warranties ...

You got that right PW. I know some guys whose parents were really close to my parents and were brought up like I was. Some of those guys are in jail and some are dead. It just goes up my **** when young guys want to blame their parents or a "60s" generation for the way things are today. I really believe that my older son turned out the way he did because of:

A. He has a great mother
B. He has a great father
C. He lived in a decent area
D. His friends were monitored by his parents as he was growing up
E. His nature is one of a good guy.

hearingimpared

bobman1235 wrote:

I'd just like to point out that I never meant anything towards anyone here who grew up in the 60's. I'm almost exclusively talking about perceptions here, and everyone's getting all bent out of shape about it. The only reason I'm focusing on the 60's is that it's an easy target, and I think a lot of the folks arguing about this grew up in that time period.

The point I've tried to make three times now is that MOST (NOT all) of what you guys are talking about - rampant drug use, crime, underage pregnancy and sex - is NOT worse now than it used to be. It's better, or at best the same. Look up some numbers, some have been posted in this thread. Teenage sex and pregnancy are at some of the lowest rates of the PAST 50 YEARS, no matter what your perception, those are cold hard facts. It' SEEMS worse because we hear about it more, and the news gets big ratings with tragedy and human interest ****.

Everyone stop being so defensive, no one's mocking your generation.

I'm not being defensive here and I totally disagree with your "facts." I think your "facts" are denials. They may not be that way in MA but here in Philidelphia they are a hell of a lot worse than the national average and a hell of a lot worse than in the past.

Nothing personal.

PolkWannabie

hearingimpared wrote:

I know some guys whose parents were really close to my parents and were brought up like I was. Some of those guys are in jail and some are dead.

Presactly ...

Which is why for example it's easy to tell that statements like ... "It is all in the parenting, as stated many times before" ... were not made by someone who has had the duty & priviledge of being a parent and getting that child to adulthood ... Regardless of how well someone's children turned out, no parent on the planet would make such a statement ...

... and oh yeah ... Let's not forget ...

F. Luck ... Stuff happens ... For those of us who have managed to get to the point where we've brought those in the generation behind us that we were directly responsible for to the point where they are adults and on their own ... I'm sure almost all of us could look back at the time when we were kids and find at least some scenario that we were involved in which could have had much more dire consequences then it did and that was totally contrary to how we were brought up ...

VR3

Its hard to place the blame on one distinct entity...

I have two prime examples, a friend I was very close with in my earlier childhood, has been arrested twice - however, it is not parent related or media related - but his Mother passed away, and his Dad kind of abandoned his control to find a girlfriend --- hardly an overall parenting problem, but the real source of common sense was replaced with nothing and he reacted with such...

Another example lives down the road, his parents are hardly grade A - but they have a son and a daughter, the Daughter is stand up, the son - not so much...

But, at the same time, my Mom works at a correctional facility and she has countless stories about parents and their kids, how she gets phone calls from parents wanting something done to their kids because they wont behave... some type of medicine, something for peace. There is just no discipline in the house...

I've been fairly blessed to be around a good group of friends, granted - they all do some pretty stupid stuff, but nothing to bad... granted Ive been very selective who I want to hang out with - but I just don't see alot of this stuff that is mentioned in this thread. All of my friends, their parents are very "hardcore" - they believe in toughness. I guess this comes with the Southern environment instilled in this area...

Regardless - I thought the original post was funny, good stuff - somewhat true on some ocasions. But to me the whole situation boils down to the acceptance of the minority over the majority - one Mommy and child get depressed and they bring down the country. Before we know, lil Timmy can't get spanked in school, no more prayer, no more pledge, no more rough housing, no more school yard brawls...

Everyone is being made into a pillow, and eventually we will explode I suppose...

My favorite one though is the lady spilling hot coffee on her lap, then sueing McDonalds because the cup didn't say it was hot..

F1nut

Sorry I couldn't partake in this discussion more during the day, but I had to take some responsibility and get some work done.:)

We have become a nation of pussified, politically correct, poorly educated, entitlist elitist.

Sad, but true.

hearingimpared

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

... granted Ive been very selective who I want to hang out with

This is what a parent prays and hopes that they have taught their child, that type of common sense. The problem is, will the child be selective as you have been. . .we as parents have ZERO control over that.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

but I just don't see alot of this stuff that is mentioned in this thread. All of my friends, their parents are very "hardcore" - they believe in toughness. I guess this comes with the Southern environment instilled in this area...

You just made the case. . . very "hardcore", belief in toughness, environment instilled in this area . . .these are probably the reasons why you "just don't see alot of this stuff that is mentioned in this thread."

What I see in the area I live in is just the opposite therefore constant shootings due to drug use and infestation. Children bearing children etc.

Then you go to the opposite end of the spectrum and you get these mamby pamby parents who pussify and cottle and overprotect their children into non functioning messes who can't deal with any problems except through our court systems and always blaming others for their problems.

"We are the architects of our own misery."

ledhed

hearingimpared wrote:

You got that right PW. I know some guys whose parents were really close to my parents and were brought up like I was. Some of those guys are in jail and some are dead. It just goes up my **** when young guys want to blame their parents or a "60s" generation for the way things are today. I really believe that my older son turned out the way he did because of:

A. He has a great mother
B. He has a great father
C. He lived in a decent area
D. His friends were monitored by his parents as he was growing up
E. His nature is one of a good guy.

There have been studies-and it is my personal opinion-Kids will take after their friends more than anyone else. Parents really need to monitor who their kids are hanging out with.

read-alot

I have helped my wife raise two and my advice is do not wait until your children are in their teens to try and teach them right from wrong and it pays to teach respect even if it is to parents who grew up in the 60's and 70's.
The respect problem is bad in our school systems, my daughter is teaching to pay for grad school and when you have to have uniformed police officers standing in the halls, what else can I say.

tonyb

steveinaz wrote:

This country started losing it when parents tried to be their kids "friend." A parent is far more than a friend, and parents don't have the luxury of being their kids friend until possibly, later in life. A friend is a peer, a Parent is an example to work your way up to. You have to rise above what makes you feel good, and do what is needed to help guide your child. Sometimes that isn't fun, but you take the good with the bad, and you find the courage and integrity to do the right thing.

We're too busy these days with our cell phones and crackberrys, yacht clubs and tennis dates to be raising kids..., you know, too busy doing what we want to do, no? So we stuff a $50 in little Johnny's mouth and send him to the arcade. Then we make zero tolerance tough laws, so the judicial system can finish raising our kids, that frees up time to wax the BMW dontcha know....

And finally we buy them everything they want, so we don't have to spend a dear 5 minutes communicating or interacting with them---god forbid we communicate some original feeling. Then we wonder why our children grow up to be self-centered, self-absorbed morons. Why? Because they had to take care of themselves...it's called insecurity. No rules, no structure, no one in charge---no security.

Everyone for themselves.

Being a parent is the toughest thing you'll ever do in your life---if it's done right. It's also the most rewarding. You young folk's with no children yet--take notes.

Kids don't develop character and self-esteem because of the stuff they have. They develop character by learning and watching you. Seeing what kind of person you are, your honesty, integrity. The gain esteen from your praise, and integrity from your example---and right from wrong, thru your discipline.

I think steve pretty much hit this one out of the park!

PolkThug

good stuff:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16159302/

zombie boy 2000

After reading that, I looked up at the top of the page to see if it came from The Onion.
Nope.. it's real.

What a crock o' ****.

tommyboy

Zb, he is 4 years old... Did you even know what **** were(or at least what they were capable of:D ) when you were four, I sure didn't... poor little bugger

zombie boy 2000

Tommy... Believe me, I wasn't referring to the actions of the child, but of the school's administration:D

And FYI, I've always known a good a pair of dirty pillows when I see 'em:p

bobman1235

tommyboy wrote:

Zb, he is 4 years old... Did you even know what **** were(or at least what they were capable of:D ) when you were four, I sure didn't...

Hell, at 4, you still probably remember them as "lunch".

PhantomOG

hearingimpared wrote:

Not like Bob did. He was speaking for the "Greatest Generation." Speak from experience or else state that you are speaking from opinion. Atleast that is how I try to live my life.

I'm speaking from experience from my generation. Were kids taking advanced calculus, physics, biology, etc. for college credit in high school in the 50's, 60's, and 70's? I'm sure the number is alot higher now.

Most 7 year olds can navigate a computer better than your average 50 year old.

You honestly think kids don't play sports anymore? School sports is as, if not more competitive than it ever was.

This comparing generations crap is all BULL. No one has lived in more than just THEIR generation so stop trying to say one was better than the other. Just because you have kids, doesn't mean you know what its like to be them at that time.

Are *some* things screwed up today? Absolutely. Were some things screwed up 30 years ago? You bet they were. Selective memory is not going to help the situation. And neither is ignoring all the advantages/resources/possibilities kids have today that they couldn't dream about 30 years ago. Am I saying today is better? NO. But get off the damn rocking chair with the "When I was a kid I walked barefoot 10 miles through 3 foot of snow to school everyday, uphill bothways, and only ate dirt and used motor oil and I'm a better man for it" shtick.

30 years ago, the story that was just linked probably would not have even made the local paper. Now every Joe Schmoe from here to Timbuktu can read it 5 minutes after it happens. It doesn't mean its widespread. It doesn't mean the sky is falling. We live in an information age and the media skews things way out of proportion. This thread wasn't started with "facts". It was started with a bunch of made up stories. I've posted "facts" showing clear numbers for crimes per capita today versus 30 years ago and likewise for poverty. Yes, there are 100X as many news stories about crap like this, but its not because its widespread and getting worse, its because people eat it up like gravy, just like this thread.

zombie boy 2000

Phantom...

Two things in this life of which I am very sure.

1) Sex sells.
2) Nostalgia sells.

PolkWannabie

PhantomOG wrote:

I'm speaking from experience from my generation. Were kids taking advanced calculus, physics, biology, etc. for college credit in high school in the 50's, 60's, and 70's? I'm sure the number is alot higher now.

This doesn't jive with the fact that SAT scores are 100 points lower and as a result have been dumbed down to narrow the gap ... So while the top and bottom 10% may very well be catered to, the middle 80% have not kept pace ... I don't see this as some particular generations fault per se ... Educators never seemed to learn the precept of ... if isn't broken, don't fix it ... They will be happy to tell you though how much "nicer" education is today then it was in years gone by ...

PhantomOG wrote:

Most 7 year olds can navigate a computer better than your average 50 year old.

This is a function of the available technology of the time period

PhantomOG wrote:

You honestly think kids don't play sports anymore? School sports is as, if not more competitive than it ever was.

While I would agree that organizied school sports are just as if not more competitive now ... The average kid is not involved ... When was the last time you saw a group of kids out playing in the neighborhood ? ... In the 50's and 60's parents had to drag their kids in for meals.

PhantomOG wrote:

30 years ago, the story that was just linked probably would not have even made the local paper.

It's not that it wouldn't have made the paper ... No one at the school would have considered it to be an issue. Issue ? ... Did I say issue ? ... Jeeze ... I meant PROBLEM ...

steveinaz

We've got to stop kissing our kids' asses. Parents need to take charge of their homes, and that isn't happening for the most part. The kids are running the show. There isn't but 1 alpha wolf in my home, and it's me; my kids are 23 & 25 and still know this....just like my 73yr old father still holds the gold key to the crapper in his home.

What did Erma Brown say: "someone who doesn't put food on the table, pay bills, or buy clothes for they own ****, ain't runnin a mutherf***in' thang....LOL AMEN.

PolkWannabie

LOL ... Really ... Or in other words ... My house, my rules ...

PhantomOG

PolkWannabie wrote:

This doesn't jive with the fact that SAT scores are 100 points lower and as a result have been dumbed down to narrow the gap

Ok, so lets go on some fact finding shall we?

High School Dropout rates 1972-2002
I guess we're dumber for staying in school as opposed to gettin' a job with "paw" down at the town factory, eh?

Here's some light reading on postsecondary education, but don't bother if you'd rather just spout things without proof.

Postsecondary Participation Rates by Sex and Race/Ethnicity: 1974-2003

In case you're too lazy to click the link:

All but one of the groups examined here increased their rate of postsecondary participation from 1974 to 2003. The one exception was young Hispanic males, whose participation rate declined while the rates of others increased.

PhantomOG

PolkWannabie wrote:

When was the last time you saw a group of kids out playing in the neighborhood ? ... In the 50's and 60's parents had to drag their kids in for meals.

I see/hear kids playing in my neighborhood all the time. My parents had to drag me in for dinner in the 80's. All this anecdotal BS doesn't prove squat.

PolkWannabie

What does school drop out rates have to do with average SAT scores the lowering of which over the years is a fact ...

This is not about your generation is dumb and mine is bright ... It has nothing to do with that ... The whole education system has been dumbed down ... It's not uncommon now to find remedial courses for first year college students so they can get up to speed after having been just passed along in primary and secondary schools ... Potential freshman who would have needed remedial classes in this that or the other would never have been accepted in the past. The primary incentive of universities is no longer about higher education, it's about making money.

steveinaz

If you're still not convinced the world has changed, just watch "The Nanny" show a couple times. Boy, let my kid hit my wife, I will tear that **** up. I've never seen so many limp-dicked fathers in my life. That goes for those mothers too..."but I don't want Sally to hate me" who gives a ****? You're not there to win a popularity contest, you're there to instill some positive character into your kids. If you don't have the backbone for it, PLEASE do us all a favor, don't have kids. PERIOD.

Think of it this way, the sooner you instill some discipline and structure into your kids, the quicker you can begin to really enjoy them. I took my kids everywhere with me, because they were well behaved---they didn't figure that out on their own...trust me. I loved their company, and they liked hanging out with dad.

amulford

I got rules. Period. F#ck around and don't follow 'em...

F1nut

This thread wasn't started with "facts". It was started with a bunch of made up stories.

Those original comments ARE facts!!!