here is a very good page on expensive cables. check it out.

cfrizz · November 2006

Oh & I forgot, don't forget to pack your assless leather chaps! I've got to have some sort of entertainment while you are handling all of the equipment! That will be just the ticket!!!:D

reeltrouble1 wrote:

oooohhhhhhh I just felt the dark side of the force pass.:eek:

Max I need a gazzillion watt tube amp, one of those MANLEY or whatever hidden treasure it is you have in that damm closet of yours and a ticket to Boston, I gotta her right where I want err.........:D oh yea, the turntable rig too if your not using it. I got to call the city fathers, see if they have a real big PLUG, and some what -50 guage wire (the smaller the number the better right).

Okay so now I gotta go find those boxes I put somewhere.......

Told ya Noel.;)

RT1

disneyjoe7 · November 2006

Cathy Getting Tubes!

disneyjoe7 · November 2006

Someone doesn't understand cables

unc2701 · November 2006

MacLeod wrote:

It is my understanding that for an ABX test to be scientific and objective the first thing that has to be is that the listener has to not know which brand is which. Basically, blindfolded. Secondly, the 2 choices have to be level matched. No point in picking between a 500 watt amp and a 200 watt amp if theyre not level matched, you could pick that right every time.

As for the number of guesses, most of the studies Ive seen use 12 and the listener has to get all 12 right.

That seems like a lot but just flipping a coin should get you 6 out of 12. Besides, if the differences in whatever component you are testing are noticeable then you should be able to get 12 out of 12 every time.

1)Yes, they do need to be blinded and technically, they shouldn't even be able to see the person who does know. I've seen studies wrecked by some pretty subtle things.

2)The level matching is very important- you'd want to do it on 100% the same gear & only switch the wires. Different resistances in the wire would result in different volumes, which the human ear is very good at detecting.

3)The sample size is going to depend on how much of a badass the person is. If they can truly pick it out 75% of the time, that would suggest that cables do make a difference (75% is better than the 50% that you'd get randomly), but you'd need a bigger sample size before you'd know that they weren't full of **** vs a person who could pick right 90% of the time.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the typical ABX is that you're doing it in an unfamiliar room. This was driven home for me when I moved & the set up went from a good-by-accident room to a crap room.

F1nut · November 2006

unc2701 wrote:

Now why didn't you just start with this? Was it that hard? You don't have to tell one guy to go back to car audio, insinuate he doesn't even have a home stereo, call someone else a liar, and crap your adult diapers before dropping something useful.

All I'm saying is that you being such a knee-jerk crotchety old **** everytime someone says cables don't matter really does no one any good. That last quote does.

I'm blunt, it's my nature. You don't have to like it or read it if it bothers you, but one thing you are not going to do is tell me how to post, Clear enough?

Anyway, as for all your little insults I'll be blunt with my response. Yawn.

F1nut · November 2006

BTW Steve, what have you been smoking tonight???

disneyjoe7 · November 2006

I not telling but I see lots of Blues and Yellows

RuSsMaN · November 2006

Blinds and double blinds, although they sound (pun intended) reasonable, they really aren't good tests. More often than not (published tests) are in unfamilar settings, with unfamilar gear. I'd be suprised if the best ears got more than 50% correct. The fact that the listener KNOWS they are being tested sends it into a downward spiral. How can you even setup a control group, to reinforce the validity of the test results?

The site is typical (the original post), they provide electrical data for various types of cables. What does that really prove? It proves there is very little, or for all intents and purposes (our natural hearing ability) NO change in gain from one cable to the next. What does that have to do with 'tone'?

Amps for intance have specs, gobs of them. Amp 'a' may spec better than amp 'b' on paper electrically, but how do they sound? Amp 'b' with hideous specs, may sound night and day better (to most) than amp 'a'. Identically spec'd amps may sound COMPLETELY different. Look at anything electrical. Caps, resistors - spec'd the same, same values, same tolerences - do they all sound IDENTICAL? I'll tell you first hand, they don't. For example, I've had GRUNT Chinese tube preamps - that sounded mediocre at best - and swapped Sonicaps in the output - and they became a totally different peice of gear, for the better mind you. That being said, I've had a couple of peices modded, and frankly, they sounded better in stock form.

Unfortunately, the only tool we have for 'tone' is our ears, and our personal preferences. All the electrical charts, graphs, and spec sheets mean nothing at the end of the audio day - how does it sound?

You want to hear a difference in cables? Be familiar with your rig, and several recordings. Drop in a new set of cables and FORGET about them. Just listen as you normally would for a couple weeks. Maybe a month. Then one night, swap back to your 'old' cables, and hear the difference, for better or worse.

Is there audio voodoo and doodoo out there? Sure there is. The flip side, there is a lot of listening experience, and a lot of happy audionuts, that have taken the time to experiment, and 'find their sound'. Whether that is with 16/2 lamp cord, or Kimber Monocle - they have tuned their system and formed their own opinions - not from specs and websites, but cold hard experience.

Cheers,
Russ

PolkThug · November 2006

Bravo russman. I expected the "Has the forum reached a consensus yet?" post.:D

RuSsMaN · November 2006

I save that default reply for the political stuff.

mrbigbluelight · November 2006

Once again DisneyJoe has refined the essentials of this argument into a pure essence of ....... uhm........well, whatever it was, it was GD funny !

amulford · November 2006

All I can say is this:

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know.

heiney9 · November 2006

Wow, it has been awhile since someone started a cable debate. 3 points

1. You have to have some experience before you open your mouth

2. If cable swapping works for you, go with it.

3. If cable swapping doesn't work for you, buy the chapest cables possible.

Me personally I have heard a marked difference in cables (good and bad) therefore I choose #2.

See how simple this is ?

H9

zombie boy 2000 · November 2006

But H9...

they want you to prove it to 'em.
It helps them sleep better at night by keeping the boogeyman in the closet:D

MSALLA · November 2006

I have read countless cable threads on here and they just turn into arguments. After reading some publications I belive they can make a difference. However, no one in any of these posts ever states what makes one cable better then another. Someone has to know what makes a good cable.I'm sure these "best" cable companies don't have a magic cable wand they wave and out comes super cables. They have to know what makes one cable better than another.

SO WHAT IS IT.

I see alot of uneducated arguments on both sides. Lets get some facts.

RuSsMaN · November 2006

It's not about whats good and bad, it's about synergy in YOUR system.

zombie boy 2000 · November 2006

RuSsMaN wrote:

It's not about whats good and bad, it's about synergy in YOUR system.

AMEN!!!! How else to explain my experience with Signal Cable? How could their Classic line sound better in my set-up than their Ultra's? I mean all the specs (including resistance and capacitance) would point to the Ultra's being the hands down winner. Hell, it's even priced accordingly (i.e. more expensive).

Yet, the Classics worked better in my rig for a variety of reasons...
This kind of stands against any placebo effect, as well. Trust me, I wanted the Ultras to sound better. I ended up losing a bit of money going to and fro.

shack · November 2006

TroyD wrote:

I hear a difference. I also could care less if others don't.

Hey! That's my line!

TroyD · November 2006

ok, so I owe you a dollar

BDT

madmax · November 2006

jdhdiggs wrote:

MM- Come on, do better than that, I know you can. What was wrong there?

No need really to argue the points beyond pointing them out. When a person gets to a certain time in their listening goals and has the right group of synergistic equipment they will most likely upgrade cables for the fun of it and find the truth.

madmax

MSALLA · November 2006

RuSsMaN wrote:

It's not about whats good and bad, it's about synergy in YOUR system.

You would make a great politician:D

shack · November 2006

Originally Posted by RuSsMaN
It's not about whats good and bad, it's about synergy in YOUR system.

MSALLA wrote:

You would make a great politician:D

Unlike political BS....Russman's post is A FACT!

reeltrouble1 · November 2006

Absoulutely 100% correct Russ you have to know your rig, what it sounds like with the music that does it for you, in your listening room.

Your ears will tell you when to stop with wire upgrades/changes with whatever rig you presently have. It is not always about a "better" wire, sometimes you just need a different one dependent upon the system, electrons are dumb, they can be counted to behave the same way in a given environment, therefore, they can be manipulated.

Side note, get chaps cleaned...................

I am off to the Shed for an all day listening session to listen to the music. The last thing I will be thinking about is the wires.

RT1

jdhdiggs · November 2006

madmax wrote:

No need really to argue the points beyond pointing them out. When a person gets to a certain time in their listening goals and has the right group of synergistic equipment they will most likely upgrade cables for the fun of it and find the truth.
madmax

But you didn't point out anything... So does that mean you have no point?

MSALLA · November 2006

shack wrote:

Unlike political BS....Russman's post is A FACT!

I agree with what he is saying, but it would be nice to hear some people back up there arguments about cables with some information.

(ie. an article from mit cables states that the cables not only tranfer current but are also a filter. They also wind the wire at different ratios for better performance.)

Although it's no one's responsibility, it would be cool for some of the more experienced members to educate some of the members who are not so informed. It seems people will on any subject on the fourm except cables.
F1 did this for me on another thread and I was very greatful.

madmax · November 2006

MSALLA wrote:

Although it's no one's responsibility, it would be cool for some of the more experienced members to educate some of the members who are not so informed. It seems people will on any subject on the fourm except cables.
F1 did this for me on another thread and I was very greatful.

We used to all the time. Always got turned into a pissing match by the unenlightened.

And no, I have no point...

madmax

shack · November 2006

How much more information do you want? A search on this forum will yield many threads about cables. Look for the cable demo threads set up by dorokusai a year or so ago. Several cables were passed around and the results reported.

It may have been slightly in jest...but the fact of the matter is that I really DO NOT care if any one else believes that various intereconnects, speaker cables, etc... make a difference or not. If you like them fine, if not fine. I know what I think and I am tired of the constant prove this...prove that...snakeoil...science...ears...voodoo arguments this topic generates so I don't "discuss" the issues anymore.

MSALLA · November 2006

Hey, I don't want to be convinced of a damn thing. I had questions awhile ago and F1 answerd them for me. I just get a kick reading all these opinions with nothing really being said except I think they work and I think they don't. I never really looked at the cable posts until about a month ago and never Knew it was such a touchy subject.The fact of the matter is this thread gave NO information at all.

I belive in good cables. I can't and won't spend the money for the very best, nor do I think my system warrants them.

marker · November 2006

MSALLA wrote:

all these opinions with nothing really being said except I think they work and I think they don't.

BINGO!!! We have a winner!

madmax · November 2006

Does anyone think the ones with batteries work and if so do you think it is because of the battery?
madmax

here is a very good page on expensive cables. check it out.

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