here is a very good page on expensive cables. check it out.

ND13

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Excellent responses.

I am certainly with Cathy on the budget and waste of money if no improvement camp.

RT1

Ditto and I thought that was mainly what my post said.

Ted, quit kissing Cathy's ****..You'll never get her to try tubes.:D

marker

MSALLA wrote:

F1nut did leave this link http://www.mitcables.com/publications.asp on another post that I asked about. It's very informative. I don't buy when people just say anything is better just because. This link did have some real information on it.

A totally unbiased source with nothing to gain or lose either way from it for sure, huh?

marker

ND13 wrote:

Ditto and I thought that was mainly what my post said.

Ted, quit kissing Cathy's ****..You'll never get her to try tubes.:D

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! :eek: :cool:

unc2701

F1nut wrote:

Actually, I kinda thought you had the corner on written diarrhea.

Wow. That's your A game? Why didn't you just roll with "I'm rubber, you're glue?" Know what? My writing is diarrhea. 3lb, next day hangover, atomic mexican diarrhea. Makes your eyes sting, don't it? That is why you're crying, right?

F1nut wrote:

You missed that one entirely. However, DisneyJoe got it.

See? You're trying to play it off. I saw the pics, too- she's hot. But what what you're really doing is calling him a liar and that's not cool. Oh, and you're doing us all an injustice by dropping the ball on some terrific double entendre's at the same time. If he really needs a pic of his wife holdin' some high quality cable, I'll be happy to stop by.

F1nut wrote:

Let's run with the "everything that is audible must have a corresponding measurment" idea. We can measure watts, one watt is one watt. However, that doesn't tell us how that watt sounds when all is said and done. We can measure THD and tube amps always have a higher THD rating, yet a large number of folks find that tube amps sound better than sand amps.

Measurements are a rough guide, nothing more. Your ears are the ultimate authority.

The bottom line is that if you're relying on specs alone to judge how a piece of audio gear (that includes cables) sounds, you are selling yourself short and are in this hobby for the wrong reason.

Now why didn't you just start with this? Was it that hard? You don't have to tell one guy to go back to car audio, insinuate he doesn't even have a home stereo, call someone else a liar, and crap your adult diapers before dropping something useful.

All I'm saying is that you being such a knee-jerk crotchety old **** everytime someone says cables don't matter really does no one any good. That last quote does.

Anyhow, bringing it back to audio, I think that ND13 brings up a good point in that cables are very dependent on the system and personally, I think just about everyone could get a lot more improvement for $500 worth of room treatments before $500 worth of cable... but you can be damn sure that you'll hear the cables after those room treatments are in.

PolkThug

unc2701 wrote:

I think just about everyone could get a lot more improvement for $500 worth of room treatments before $500 worth of cable...

I highly recommend a kegerator!

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/closeup.php?userid=51750&pic=91_35_big.jpg

unc2701

PolkThug wrote:

I highly recommend a kegerator!

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/closeup.php?userid=51750&pic=91_35_big.jpg

as long as it's got its own dedicated 20 amp outlet. And some sorbothane on the compressor.:D

jdhdiggs

Something to piss off everyone:

To the Anti-cable crowd:
Go get some 28ga or smaller single strand wire (preferrably iron) and run about 10' of it to each speaker post. Now go get some 8 ga wire and run it to the speakers. Then tell me cables don't make a difference. ( I went 20/20 on this ABX'd as did my wife)

To the cables make a difference crowd:
Read the material and electrical engineering handbooks and put the crack pipe down if you want some REAL reasons cables can sound different so you can argue more intelligently. Also, take a psych or marketing class and open your mind a little bit.

Also: If instruments such as microphones and oscilliscopes can't hear what you are experiencing, how did it get put on your vinyl or CD? Common sense people.

In the end, Cables DO make a difference up to a point. You can measure it, in fact, you can measure it far beyond what any human could even hope to hear/experience. Beyond a certain level, the only difference is the placebo effect. For some people that threshold of hearing real changes versus a placebo effect is lower than for others.

IMHO: All properly designed and sized cables that have the same (or very similar) inductance/capacitance/resitance values and will sound exactly the same to the human ear. How similar those values need to be to no longer hear the difference depends on the person.

Noel: Anymore I give more credence to the placebo effect than having a high rez system as people running $99 CDP into a $200 receiver played on some $150 speakers claim to here "night and day" differences when playing with cables where most ABX tests are done with much higher fidelity equipment.

Rodney King

unc2701

What is this weird feeling? I think.... I think I agree with JDH on something!

See, audio can bring anyone together!

As aside, they used to prescribe placebo inhalers to kids with asthma. Know what? Most the time they worked just as good as beta agonist.

jdhdiggs

unc2701 wrote:

What is this weird feeling? I think.... I think I agree with JDH on something!

See, audio can bring anyone together!

As aside, they used to prescribe placebo inhalers to kids with asthma. Know what? Most the time they worked just as good as beta agonist.

Yeah, I was weirded out too! Crap, first Andrew, now you... FAACCKK!!!

Hey, since it's been about 10 years since my last stats class, what is a valid sample size/success rate for an ABX test? To me, 10/10 and 9/10 is ok, but not 8/10, but 16/20 would be... Whats the threshold that stats recommends for a 99.9% certainty against luck on a 50/50 proposition.

reeltrouble1

Noel, Oh, I will get her tubed!!!!!!!!!!! every sand person supporter is just a tubey in the making, see how she no longer objects, she is thinking about it she just doesn't know it yet.

RT1

ninerbj

...One time, at band camp...

unc2701

jdhdiggs wrote:

Yeah, I was weirded out too! Crap, first Andrew, now you... FAACCKK!!!

Hey, since it's been about 10 years since my last stats class, what is a valid sample size/success rate for an ABX test? To me, 10/10 and 9/10 is ok, but not 8/10, but 16/20 would be... Whats the threshold that stats recommends for a 99.9% certainty against luck on a 50/50 proposition.

I'll run it, but most the cables matter people reject ABX tests.

Edit: Huh- Doing this right is messier than you'd think- since people know that exactly half the samples will be A and the other half B, you've got a nasty conditional probability on everything after the first test. I'm gonna ignore that fact for now.

univera

cmy330go wrote:

I'd say cable debates on this forum are more tense than the recent evolution thread.:rolleyes:

Do you think cables are born **** or they become **** after being exposed to the moral decline known as homosexuality that is suppossedly "ruining" this country...I, myself, feel the $500/meter cables are the real culprits of moral decline....

Bottom line: If you aren't using Signal Cable Risers, your cables are marginal at best.:)

I wonder what John K has to say...:rolleyes:

madmax

jdhdiggs wrote:

Something to piss off everyone:

To the Anti-cable crowd:
Go get some 28ga or smaller single strand wire (preferrably iron) and run about 10' of it to each speaker post. Now go get some 8 ga wire and run it to the speakers. Then tell me cables don't make a difference. ( I went 20/20 on this ABX'd as did my wife)

To the cables make a difference crowd:
Read the material and electrical engineering handbooks and put the crack pipe down if you want some REAL reasons cables can sound different so you can argue more intelligently. Also, take a psych or marketing class and open your mind a little bit.

Also: If instruments such as microphones and oscilliscopes can't hear what you are experiencing, how did it get put on your vinyl or CD? Common sense people.

In the end, Cables DO make a difference up to a point. You can measure it, in fact, you can measure it far beyond what any human could even hope to hear/experience. Beyond a certain level, the only difference is the placebo effect. For some people that threshold of hearing real changes versus a placebo effect is lower than for others.

IMHO: All properly designed and sized cables that have the same (or very similar) inductance/capacitance/resitance values and will sound exactly the same to the human ear. How similar those values need to be to no longer hear the difference depends on the person.

Noel: Anymore I give more credence to the placebo effect than having a high rez system as people running $99 CDP into a $200 receiver played on some $150 speakers claim to here "night and day" differences when playing with cables where most ABX tests are done with much higher fidelity equipment.

Cough, cou..****...gh, cough... :rolleyes:

SCompRacer

ninerbj wrote:

...One time, at band camp...

....the Trombone player short-sheeted the Bassoonist's bunk.

univera

---

univera

Rodney King wrote:

Finally a celebrity on this forum besides Strongbad, Jesse, Russ and Doro (who is missing in action.) Oh, yea, and Disney Joe!

Rodney King in L.A., welcome to the forum. Haven't seen your "innocent" likeness around in a while.

Your valuable insight into audio is welcome. Please give us some PCP induced listening tests whenever possible. Have you recovered from those baton shots to the head?:D

unc2701

Ok, here's the ABX stats that you have to beat (ignoring the fact that you know 50% of the results will be one cable):

You have less than a 1% chance of correctly guessing:
10/10
16/20
22/30
28/40
34/50
40/60
46/70
51/80
57/90
63/100

You have less than a 5% chance of correctly guessing:
9/10
15/20
20/30
26/40
32/50
37/60
43/70
48/80
54/90
59/100

jdhdiggs

UNC-Thanks, that's about what I remembered, but the 16/20 seems low (gut), logically its right. Oh, and BTW IIRC the people threatening the boycott were all firmly in the "cables do make a difference, you're an idiot to even think of doubting me" camp

MM- Come on, do better than that, I know you can. What was wrong there?

jdhdiggs

UNC: One other question, how does that change by going to a
"Here's A, now is this one the same or different?" versus
"Here's A, Here's B, now which one is this one?"

I think the first one would be more telling and fits the story better. It's not trying to find if a person can identify which is which, but rather if it is different from the test.

Drumingman

AAGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

unc2701

Statistically they're the same- they've got a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly; they've got less than a 1% chance of pulling that off more than 16 times out of 20.

Psychologically, very different. I think the first one people would be much better at. A shift in tonal quality can be glaring, but having to memorize the same could be harder.


EDIT: The second one is the standard ABX test, BTW.

cfrizz

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! OMG you just gave me a belly ache Noel! But I surely needed this laugh! It's been a **** of a day!!!!

THANKS!!!:D

ND13 wrote:

Ditto and I thought that was mainly what my post said.

Ted, quit kissing Cathy's ****..You'll never get her to try tubes.:D

killerb

jdhdiggs wrote:

Something to piss off everyone:

To the Anti-cable crowd:
Go get some 28ga or smaller single strand wire (preferrably iron) and run about 10' of it to each speaker post. Now go get some 8 ga wire and run it to the speakers. Then tell me cables don't make a difference. ( I went 20/20 on this ABX'd as did my wife)

you are right on that one, but if you compare two conductors of the same size you throw that out the window. if you compare the same gauge wire they will share the same electrical footprint ie capacitance, resistance and inductance. that was the point of the article. he was saying if the electrical charactisics are the same what makes the cables sound different?

cfrizz

ROTFLMAO!!!!:D

You are absolutely right Ted! You WILL get me tubed, the day you come up to Boston, bringing your tube Prepro, Amp, CD & whatever else is tubed along with some umpteen dollar cables to hook it all up with!

You must then unhook all of my SUPERIOR solid state equipment, put in all of your tube stuff, and calibrate it all!

I will then be more than happy to listen to it play all of my favorite music & put in some of my favorite LOUD EXPLOSIVE movies & see how it goes! BTW it has to be a 5 channel amp & a prepro that can handle surround sound. I don't just do 2 channel!

The first time a tube gets blown from excessive use, you can pack it all back up again rehook my stuff & go home!

If I think it just knocks my socks off, I'll keep all the tube equipment, & you can return home with my solid state gear!

So anytime you are ready to do all that big man, just let me know!:p

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Noel, Oh, I will get her tubed!!!!!!!!!!! every sand person supporter is just a tubey in the making, see how she no longer objects, she is thinking about it she just doesn't know it yet.

RT1

mrbigbluelight

MSALLA wrote:

I don't care what kind of improvment it makes. I'm never going to pay 1499.00 for a power cord. If it will make my music sound better, give me "oral" as I listen to the music, make me something to eat and a drink when I'm done, I'm still not going to pay that much.

.......uhm...... do you have a link for that site ? And do they take "Paypal" ?

marker

If and when the day ever comes that everything is all wireless, will we then be arguing over the batteries or even air quality in a room affecting the sound?

Will air cleaners/purifiers pick up on this as a marketing campaign targeting audiophiles and start running adds in HTM, Stereophile , etc. Or will Monster start their own brand of air cleaners? :cool:

reeltrouble1

cfrizz wrote:

ROTFLMAO!!!!:D
So anytime you are ready to do all that big man, just let me know!:p

oooohhhhhhh I just felt the dark side of the force pass.:eek:

Max I need a gazzillion watt tube amp, one of those MANLEY or whatever hidden treasure it is you have in that damm closet of yours and a ticket to Boston, I gotta her right where I want err.........:D oh yea, the turntable rig too if your not using it. I got to call the city fathers, see if they have a real big PLUG, and some what -50 guage wire (the smaller the number the better right).

Okay so now I gotta go find those boxes I put somewhere.......


Told ya Noel.;)

RT1

MacLeod

It is my understanding that for an ABX test to be scientific and objective the first thing that has to be is that the listener has to not know which brand is which. Basically, blindfolded. Secondly, the 2 choices have to be level matched. No point in picking between a 500 watt amp and a 200 watt amp if theyre not level matched, you could pick that right every time.

As for the number of guesses, most of the studies Ive seen use 12 and the listener has to get all 12 right.

That seems like a lot but just flipping a coin should get you 6 out of 12. Besides, if the differences in whatever component you are testing are noticeable then you should be able to get 12 out of 12 every time.