Evolution

univera

cmy330go wrote:

Just a quick answer to your initial question.

The bible speaks of god a number of times as being eternal, or being from everlasting to everlasting. Meaning of course that he has always existed.

Airplay, we see eye to eye quite a bit. Any "explanation" of evolution, in my opinion, has to be taken a step back each time and the question asked: "well, where did "X" that created "Y" come from and so on and so on.

That would be my explanation for the existence of something of a higher power. If a spec of dust started out to create things, where did the spec of dust come from? And where did the thing that formed the dust come from, etc, etc, etc.

At the same time, to flat out say that a god is "eternal" and has always existed is an impossible concept and a really easy answer. It can't be explained. Even to say that there was a state of nothingness from which all things started is still acknowledging that there was a state of being (nothingness) , which is something. Yes, I know, a bit confusing.

Bottom line: While I believe in an evolutionary theory, there is no way things happened by total chance and didn't start from some higher nature. At every turn, one can keep asking the question of where did that come from. Something had to create the spec of dust or single molecule that got the process rolling. Some higher power had to create a vacummn, a state of nothingness, darkeness, or whatever picture you want to place in your head. An atom or spec or whatever didn't just appear out of thin air, and if it did, where the hell did the air come from?

I think God is an easy answer instead of saying what many Agnostics believe: there may or may not be a god, but until I can definitely explain or prove it one way or the other, I am content to not believe in any higher power and just say that I don't understand or can't explain it with the info I have at my disposal."

I don't subscribe to that, but it makes sense to me. And, for the record, while I have faith, it is purely spiritual and not religious based, so my inclinations are on a worldly level. Put out good energy and will be returned ten fold. Kharma.

My interpretation of a higher power is the energy around you. No direct intervention by any higher power, if you will. But make no mistake about it, I just can't see how anything happened without some type of higher intervention that we will never explain. That's as deep as I care to get and probably makes no sense!

cmy330go

univera wrote:

...At the same time, to flat out say that a god is "eternal" and has always existed is an impossible concept and a really easy answer....

What makes it so impossible? Just because our tiny minds can't quite grasp it? Take the universe for example. Most agree that there is no beginning or end to it, and science seem to be finding more evidence of this all the time. That to me is just as hard to comprehend, but the fact that it's hard to imagine doesn't make me rule it out.

cmy330go

Almost forgot.

In regards to the "in-breeding".

When humans were created and put on earth they were "perfect". Hence no defects to worry about in reproduction. However upon sinning in the Garden of Eden they became imperfect and hence mortal. This of course was then passed down through the generations and proceeded to get worse. Copy of a copy of a copy etc...

George Grand

Oh man, I never discuss religion. I am NOT taking a position here, but cmy330go nudged my brain. If we were perfect from the outset, wouldn't we have been incapable of making a bad decision like eating apples?

I REPEAT, that is not a position, just a question.

cmy330go

George Grand wrote:

Oh man, I never discuss religion. I am NOT taking a position here, but cmy330go nudged my brain. If we were perfect from the outset, wouldn't we have been incapable of making a bad decision like eating apples?

I REPEAT, that is not a position, just a question.

Good question.

Humans were created perfect, but were also given freedom of choice. We weren't made to be little robots.

And unfortunately "He chose....poorly":D

MacLeod

cmy330go wrote:

What makes it so impossible? Just because our tiny minds can't quite grasp it? Take the universe for example. Most agree that there is no beginning or end to it, and science seem to be finding more evidence of this all the time. That to me is just as hard to comprehend, but the fact that it's hard to imagine doesn't make me rule it out.

But the flip side is also true. Just because we cant explain how something was created, that doesnt mean there is a God either. Think of the people a thousand or so years ago that thought a lunar eclipse was caused by a great snake eating the moon! They couldnt explain it scientifically so they turned to the supernatural. Religion does the same thing. Cant explain what happend before the Big Bang? Ha! That means there must be a God. No, it just means we cant explain it yet but then we're just getting started! The universe is 15-20 billion years old and we've only been around studying it for a thousand years or so. Thats basically 1 second out of a year.

As for the universe being infinite, thats only half right. The universe is infinite AND finite. How you ask? Well you have to think 4 dimensionally which is hard to do because we (humans) exist in 3 dimensions but the universe exists in 4 dimensions (up/down, left/right, front/back, time).

Think of it like this. You start out in New York and start walking west. Eventually youll come right back to the point you started and you could do this forever. Youll never come up on an unpassable barrier. Its the same with space, its curved. If you were to start flying off in one direction, eventually (about 40 billion years later assuming youre flying at the speed of light) youll arrive back at your starting point.

Science doesnt have a theory of eveything but they are working on one. M Theory is the best candidate right now which basically states that everything in the universe is made up of vibrating strings of energy. This theory hopefully will one day explain everything even beyond the Big Bang.

And I just think its better for all of us to learn and explore as much as we possibly can about this universe and do everything in our power to solve its mysteries rather than saying "God made everything, period, no need to look any further."

tonyb

cmy330go wrote:

Almost forgot.

In regards to the "in-breeding".

When humans were created and put on earth they were "perfect". Hence no defects to worry about in reproduction. However upon sinning in the Garden of Eden they became imperfect and hence mortal. This of course was then passed down through the generations and proceeded to get worse. Copy of a copy of a copy etc...

Damn women and their taste for...er..apples.

Airplay355

I dunno Mac. Those ideas sound just as abstract as religion. Maybe if I knew more about it, things would make sense.

Remember in men and black where the big alien was playing with marbles that had galaxies inside? How would could we possibly know that isn't happening? I don't suspect it is, just that you can't really disprove it.

Again though, I don't know anything about what you're talking about, infact i didn't even know there was a theory like that until you mentioned it.

I think time makes things most difficult to understand. Our small finite existances on Earth make thinking in terms of 1 billion years extremely hard.

I really like talking with you guys about this stuff. It's pretty cool when people don't get nasty about it. I learned a lot more about religion from this thread then anything else, thats for sure.

brettw22

^^^ Don't forget learning about demons too........lol

GG, thank you for the note...you're still not as bad as blue....

mrbigblue: you're an honorary member, and my membership's been revoked......

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

As for the universe being infinite, thats only half right. The universe is infinite AND finite. How you ask? Well you have to think 4 dimensionally which is hard to do because we (humans) exist in 3 dimensions but the universe exists in 4 dimensions (up/down, left/right, front/back, time)

Then that's even harder to comprehend....which isn't helping your case any.

But, alas, I keep trying to remove myself from this discussion...it's just so hard! Which is surprising considering I don't have anything to add!

Demiurge

Those of you who don't believe in a power greater then yourselves must be some truly souless and empty individuals. Can those of you who don't believe in a greater being tell me why morality matters? Why killing your neighbor who gave you a dirty look is wrong? Why is dropping trow and taking a leak in the middle of the street wrong? Who are you doing it for if everyone and everything is equal? Why do you obey law, and pay taxes? Just so you don't go to jail?

The common cop out to this line of questioning for 'non-believers' is that they believe in a God, just not that God. Once again, what are you doing it all for?

This world isn't just a happy coincidence, and you can argue against evolution without even getting into the metaphysical. Human beings are arrogant, and evolutionists are arrogant, because they claim as fact what they can't possibly 'know'. There's no factual end to the scientific nature of the universe. Nobody on this planet can explain it.

There was another thread about the universe a while back, feel free to read it if you want to learn a little more about what I'm getting at.

In the end who has to worry about being wrong? Sure ain't me.

audiobliss

AMEN!!

MacLeod

It is definitely extremely hard to comprehend. 4 dimensions?!?! String theory?!? Thats why I love this stuff, cause it stretches your brain!

But these arent things just made up to fit what we've seen (the olde "snake eating the moon" thing) but rather these are things that are borne out with mathmatical equations and by making predictions that can be observed. If my theory predicts that an apple will explode if you curse at it while playing Britney Spears, its not proven true and accepted by science until you can observe an apple doing just that.

Things also have to come out mathmatically as math is pretty definitive. For example, what is 2 million x2? 4 million right? How do you know? Did you actually count all 4 million things? No, you know its right because it works out mathmatically. Same with these extreme scientific theories.

Another thing to remember and its the greatest thing about science, one scientist doesnt stand up and say apples explode with harsh language and Britney Spears music and everybody goes "ok, works for me". The scientist states his findings and then the ENTIRE scientific community tried to disprove him. So youve got all the top scientific minds thruout the world trying to prove one guy wrong. If they succeed, then the theory is proven false. If they cannot prove him wrong AND his theory makes predictions that are backed up by observation then it is accepted as accurate.

Another thing is that these are called theories, not facts. Black holes started out as theory but now theyre facts. Evolution started out as a theory but now its a fact. String theory started out as a theory and it still is a theory because its not passed scientific muster quite yet.

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

But these arent things just made up to fit what we've seen (the olde "snake eating the moon" thing) but rather these are things that are borne out with mathmatical equations and by making predictions that can be observed. If my theory predicts that an apple will explode if you curse at it while playing Britney Spears, its not proven true and accepted by science until you can observe an apple doing just that.

Boy, you're good at sabotaging yourself.

So, have scientists observed the creation of the universe through evolution? Or better yet, have they actually observed evolution taking place today in living creatures on any large scale?

Hmm, sure doesn't sound like science, then, according to what you said.

And yet, this (bad) theory is not only 'accepted' as fact, but it's heralded as being the only possibility, and it's insisted that it's the only viewpoint to be taught in school.

That's definitely not science.

MacLeod

Demiurge wrote:

Can those of you who don't believe in a greater being tell me why morality matters? Why killing your neighbor who gave you a dirty look is wrong? Why is dropping trow and taking a leak in the middle of the streat wrong? Who are you doing it for if everyone and everything is equal? Why do you obey law, and pay taxes? Just so you don't go to jail?

The common cop out to this line of questioning for 'non-believers' is that they believe in a God, just not that God. Once again, what are you doing it all for?

Every religion has its own morals and values. How bout them muslim morals and values?

You dont have to be religious to believe in the Christian values and moral teachings. Why do you have to be religious to think that not killing somebody and not stealing is a good way to behave?

This world isn't just a happy coincidence, and you can argue against evolution without even getting into the metaphysical. Human beings are arrogant, and evolutionists are arrogant, because they claim as fact what they can't possibly 'know'. There's no factual end to the scientific nature of the universe. Nobody on this planet can explain it.

A lot of the things in science are THEORIES! Thats why we call them THEORIES because they havent been proven yet so theyre still in the THEORETICAL stage.

Some things however are indisputible. We know how planets and solar systems evolve now because we can see them doing exactly what our theories predicted they would do. We know black holes exist because we predicted them and have now found them. We know we are evolving because its evidence is everywhere. Why do whales have leg bones??? A couple thousand years from now they wont.

Those of you who don't believe in a power greater then yourselves must be some truly souless and empty individuals.

In the end who has to worry about being wrong? Sure ain't me.

But this is the biggest problem I have with religion and proves what I said earlier. "If you dont belive in the same thing I do then youre ****, a lousy person, going to hell, and yo mamma dresses you funny".

There are just too many problems inherent in devoting your life to a belief that makes you look down on other people with disdain simply because they dont share your beliefs.

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

Some things however are indisputible. We know how planets and solar systems evolve now because we can see them doing exactly what our theories predicted they would do. We know black holes exist because we predicted them and have now found them.

Just because predictions based on a particular theory are true does not mean the theory is true. There are plenty of examples of that throughout history.

MacLeod wrote:

Why do whales have leg bones??? A couple thousand years from now they wont.

Ha. I'd seriously be willing to bet they don't have leg bones. I mean, I know they don't, personally, because God didn't make whales with leg bones. But what I meant was, I bet that's just bologna. I might have to look that up and see what I can find out about it, though.

MacLeod wrote:

But this is the biggest problem I have with religion and proves what I said earlier. "If you dont belive in the same thing I do then youre ****, a lousy person, going to hell, and yo mamma dresses you funny".

There are just too many problems inherent in devoting your life to a belief that makes you look down on other people with disdain simply because they dont share your beliefs.

Religion just simply is not like that. I'm sorry if that describes all the encounters you've had with religion and its followers, but you cannot say all religion is like that just because of your experiences. No, wait...I guess you can. You just did.

MacLeod

audiobliss wrote:

Boy, you're good at sabotaging yourself.

So, have scientists observed the creation of the universe through evolution? Or better yet, have they actually observed evolution taking place today in living creatures on any large scale?

Hmm, sure doesn't sound like science, then, according to what you said.

And yet, this (bad) theory is not only 'accepted' as fact, but it's heralded as being the only possibility, and it's insisted that it's the only viewpoint to be taught in school.

That's definitely not science.

Evolution is NOT A THEORY! ITS A FACT!

The Big Bang theory is a theory. Its not been proven but its the best guess we have according to our evidence and studies.

And YES! We are all observing evolution taking place! I just posted one, whales have legbones! Why in the hell would they have those unless they were a remnant of LEGS! And before you say it, yes they have found fossilized whale skeletons WITH LEGS.

Snakes still have partial leg bones. There are lizards that live underground and are completely blind yet still have eyes.

We dont evolve over a couple days. It takes millions of years.

MacLeod

audiobliss wrote:

Just because predictions based on a particular theory are true does not mean the theory is true. There are plenty of examples of that throughout history.

If a theory predicts C will happen if you add A and B and then you observe exactly that happening, then yes the theory is true and no longer a theory. Gravity isnt a theory

Ha. I'd seriously be willing to bet they don't have leg bones. I mean, I know they don't, personally, because God didn't make whales with leg bones. But what I meant was, I bet that's just bologna. I might have to look that up and see what I can find out about it, though.

Look it up bub. Youll find it. Heres is one for ya. I put in whale hind legs in Ask.com and the first one I got was this - http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/top10_vestigial_organs-9.html

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

Evolution is NOT A THEORY! ITS A FACT!

Bah-humbug. I think I like saying that!

MacLeod wrote:

And YES! We are all observing evolution taking place! I just posted one, whales have legbones! Why in the hell would they have those unless they were a remnant of LEGS! And before you say it, yes they have found fossilized whale skeletons WITH LEGS.

See my response to that one above. I bet 'reading fossils' is very interprative and hard to really tell what bones are what.

MacLeod wrote:

Snakes still have partial leg bones. There are lizards that live underground and are completely blind yet still have eyes.

We dont evolve over a couple days. It takes millions of years.

That's just an excuse. If macro-evolution were true, and there really have been all these changes, or 'evolutions' in different animals, then where are the fossils of animals during the change? There aren't any. Boom. Your theory just took a big hit.

And there are several instances in archeology where fossilised findings totally contradict evolutionary theory. For instance, there's one large rock cliff (of course I don't remember what it's called) that scientists have dated in layers. Of course the bottom layers are older. Meaning they'd be the earlier animals, pre some evolutionary changes. And the ones on top would be more advanced. And I'm not saying this should be, the scientists dated the rock and determined there was a wide space of time between layers. However, the fossils are the same.

Ironic, as it kinda supports the idea of a huge, engulfing, catastrophic, world-wide flood.

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

If a theory predicts C will happen if you add A and B and then you observe exactly that happening, then yes the theory is true and no longer a theory. Gravity isnt a theory

That is NOT true. Of course I can't remember any examples at the moment (and no I'm not going to look up any...my goal isn't to change anyone's mindset, so it's not worth the trouble), but there are several instances throghout history where scientists and, in earlier times, philosopher/all-in-ones formulated theories, based on mathematical formulas which you refer to so much, and made predictions, based on mathematical formulas, and the predictions were accurate! However, the theory was later found to be wrong due to new discoveries.

audiobliss

I'm a-gonna go listen to some music. As that would be much more productive than debating on some online forum.

MacLeod

audiobliss wrote:

See my response to that one above. I bet 'reading fossils' is very interprative and hard to really tell what bones are what.

No. A legbone is a legbone, especially when its where the leg should be.

That's just an excuse. If macro-evolution were true, and there really have been all these changes, or 'evolutions' in different animals, then where are the fossils of animals during the change? There aren't any. Boom. Your theory just took a big hit.

Are you actually reading my posts? Whales with leg bones. Snakes with leg bones. Humans with an appendix. BOOM! There is 3 examples of evolution in progress.

And there are several instances in archeology where fossilised findings totally contradict evolutionary theory. For instance, there's one large rock cliff (of course I don't remember what it's called) that scientists have dated in layers. Of course the bottom layers are older. Meaning they'd be the earlier animals, pre some evolutionary changes. And the ones on top would be more advanced. And I'm not saying this should be, the scientists dated the rock and determined there was a wide space of time between layers. However, the fossils are the same.

And that proves what?

Ironic, as it kinda supports the idea of a huge, engulfing, catastrophic, world-wide flood.

Funny you should mention that! Didja know the story of Noah and the Arc was originally the story of Babylonian King Gilgimesh? The big flood, a big wooden arc, 2 of each animal. But in this story, he was told to do so by a bunch of Samarian gods. And this story predates the Noah story by a couple thousand years.

MacLeod

audiobliss wrote:

I'm a-gonna go listen to some music. As that would be much more productive than debating on some online forum.

Chicken!

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

No. A legbone is a legbone, especially when its where the leg should be.

And when you're talking about a whale with legs, which you've of course never seen, how do you know where the leg should be?

MacLeod wrote:

Are you actually reading my posts? Whales with leg bones. Snakes with leg bones. Humans with an appendix. BOOM! There is 3 examples of evolution in progress.

Are you reading mine? Those are null, void, irrelevant. For one thing, even if I believed the interpretations of the fossils of whales and snakes, are there any fossils of snakes and whales prior to those stages? You're either not understanding what I'm saying or not wanting to.

Ok, so what, you've got fossils of animals with these weird things that could maybe possibly with a lot of faith support evolutionary theory. However, are there any fossils of these animals in DIFFERENT stages of evolution? That's my point. And no, there aren't.

And that proves what?

Well, if you don't see it, nevermind. I spent way too much time typing that the first time.

Funny you should mention that! Didja know the story of Noah and the Arc was originally the story of Babylonian King Gilgimesh? The big flood, a big wooden arc, 2 of each animal. But in this story, he was told to do so by a bunch of Samarian gods. And this story predates the Noah story by a couple thousand years.

Umm, don't think so. It originated with the Bible. Then several different cultures (not just the Babylonians) adopted it.

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

Chicken!

No, I'm just a stupid sucker, lol. I wish I could leave this alone and go listen.

unc2701

Demiurge wrote:

Those of you who don't believe in a power greater then yourselves must be some truly souless and empty individuals. Can those of you who don't believe in a greater being tell me why morality matters? Why killing your neighbor who gave you a dirty look is wrong? Why is dropping trow and taking a leak in the middle of the street wrong? Who are you doing it for if everyone and everything is equal? Why do you obey law, and pay taxes? Just so you don't go to jail?

Well, here's how I look at it: I don't do any of those things, without any hope of reward, simply 'cause I'm a good person. You, on the other hand, are just kissing god's **** so you can cash in at bonus time. Now, if god exists and he/she/it is omniscient, the moral atheist's **** is pretty well covered. The brown noser? Who knows.

MacLeod

audiobliss wrote:

Are you reading mine? Those are null, void, irrelevant. For one thing, even if I believed the interpretations of the fossils of whales and snakes, are there any fossils of snakes and whales prior to those stages? You're either not understanding what I'm saying or not wanting to.

DUDE!! The whale legbones are NOW!! Snakes have remnants of legs NOW! Im not talking about fossils. Go find a whale, pull out his skeleton and youll find little leg bones. Go find a snake in your back yard and he'll have little leg bones sticking out.

Ok, so what, you've got fossils of animals with these weird things that could maybe possibly with a lot of faith support evolutionary theory. However, are there any fossils of these animals in DIFFERENT stages of evolution? That's my point. No, there isn't.

Theyve got skeletons of whales with legs. Weve got whales now with devolved leg bones.

Umm, don't think so. It originated with the Bible. Then several different cultures (not just the Babylonians) adopted it.

Nope. The story of Gilgamesh was written on stone tablest long before the Bible.

audiobliss

unc2701 wrote:

Well, here how I look at it: I don't do any of those things, without any hope of reward, simply 'cause I'm a good person. You, on the other hand, are just kissing god's **** so you can cash in at bonus time. Now, if god exists and he/she/it is omniscient, the moral atheist's **** is pretty well covered. The brown noser? Who knows.

And how in the world do you figure that? The moral atheist is only obeying, at best, half of God's commands, and none in spirit and in truth. That ain't looking too good for him.

And the believer, sucking up? Well, everytime you did what your mom told you to when you were little...were you accused of being a brown noser? I wouldn't think so. Taking commands to heart and obeying them is no more than just that, taking them to heart and obeying them.

EDITED to actually say what I wanted it to say. Dagnabit, it must be getting late. *beats head against the wall*

unc2701

As an aside, my respect for Macleod is skyrocketing.

Oh, and he's right about the snakes & whales.

audiobliss

A very quick search on google brought up some dates for the two stories. First I googled Gilgamesh. Supposedly written down about 2700BC. The story of Noah? According to Wikipedia, it reached its current state in the 4000's BC, which of course means it was recorded before that time, as it came from two 'quasi-independent' sources.