World War III

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  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited July 2006
    Thom wrote:
    So there's no bad people at all on Israel's side? And every single person in Lebanon is evil, down to the infants that are being killed by Israel? Like I said, I'm not on either side, I think they both suck. But to say that Israel is above criticism is absurd. Their state was partly founded on terrorist actions.

    Im sure there are some a-holes in Israel just like there are over here. I mean we have michael moore, cindy sheehan and ted kennedy but we're still the good guys as a country. Same with Israel.

    And as far as their state being founded with terrorism, thats just not true. I cant find any instances of Israelies bombing restaurants or any of the brutal acts the REAL terrorists are doing. They had a resistance movement and the UN along with the other countries came up with the deal that gave Israel their land. It was after that when all the muslim countries decided to destroy Israel. And I also cant find an instance of Israel stating that theyre going to wipe a religion and people out of existance but you can find plenty examples of that in the muslim world.
    You even go on about how far advanced they are, so should they really be killing WAY more innocent civilians than Hezbullah, who are basically shooting bottle rockets?

    Yeah, that sucks but war is hell. Kinda goes back to the Pearl Harbor thing, if hezblah hadnt started this, there wouldnt be a problem.
    I wish I could believe that all people are good, and everyone in government cares more about the people they represent than their bank accounts, but the billions we've given/ sold to Israel over the years makes it obvious who we're going to side with. No matter what they do.

    I hate to sound like a broken record, but thats becasuse theyre the good guys like us. We're on the same team.
    But I'll keep trying to believe, and I'll look for that money under my son's pillow when he loses his next tooth. Let me know what Santa Claus brings you for Christmas. I asked for a unicorn...

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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    That's probably why we're different than the rest of the world. We're the world's police force, and I realize some think we shouldn't even bother anymore. I'd agree with that stance if it wasn't in our interest to stop terrorist states that would hit us any chance they got.

    I don't know if I am right in this assumption, but it seems as if you're under the impression these people can be negotiated with. They can't. They don't understand diplomacy, which is exactly why this is such a big problem that needs to be dealt with now rather than later.

    They hate us, and wouldn't think twice about lopping your head off, even if you're one of the pacifist Americans. They only understand fear and death, and they operate using fear.

    Al qaeda formed because of our involvement in the middle east (and Saudi Arabia's willingness to allow it). It's roots prior to that are in the Afgan-Soviet wars. They hate america because, 1)they hate israel and we support them and 2)they hate any outsiders **** around in the middle east.

    My solution:
    1)Dump money into alternative energy research
    2)Israel is full of bad ****'s. Let them fend for themselves

    Not a solution:
    **** around in the middle east some more...
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  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited July 2006
    unc2701 wrote:
    Al qaeda formed because of our involvement in the middle east (and Saudi Arabia's willingness to allow it). It's roots prior to that are in the Afgan-Soviet wars. They hate america because, 1)they hate israel and we support them and 2)they hate any outsiders **** around in the middle east.

    My solution:
    1)Dump money into alternative energy research
    2)Israel is full of bad ****'s. Let them fend for themselves

    Not a solution:
    **** around in the middle east some more...

    Yeah, you're right. Probably best to just let Iran get the bomb so they can do New York right this time. Back before all the invasions and stuff, they showed restraint in only bringing down a few US buildings, shacks really. Those guys have a legit beef with Israel. What were we thinking :rolleyes:?
  • ND13
    ND13 Posts: 7,601
    edited July 2006
    It wouldn't matter if we completely evacuated ALL of our military presence in the Middle East. It wouldn't matter if we evacuated ALL of everything American from the Middle East. They hate us and that's all there is to it and they won't be happy til we are all dead and buried. That goes for all the other "infidels" around the world, too. Just that they know that in order for them to be able to succeed in their quest, we have to go first. They can't get the job done with us in the way.
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited July 2006
    It seems to me that the current situation is no different than it has been for years. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that both sides have religious viewpoints that prevents there ever being "peace" in the middle east. I say we just keep them in check (protect our interests) and let them continue to spill each other's blood forever as they believe is necessary according to their "religion".

    I guess I'm just cynical. But to me the whole situation over there is stupid, and perpetuated by stupid people. I feel sorry for the children born into that society. I feel no sympathy for the adults who can't see past it.
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited July 2006
    If al-qaeda had thousands of these bottle rockets

    <img src=http://www.meib.org/images/0011_isrleb2.jpg></img&gt;

    in baja california raining down on LA and San Diego and the mexican government not only did nothing to stop them but had representation for al-qaeda in their government, we would have turned mexico into a parking lot by now.

    Oh, but I guess we would be the bad guys. Afterall, we took california from them in the first place. No, strike that, everybody's bad. But I guess we should give california back anyways.
  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited July 2006
    unc2701 wrote:
    Al qaeda formed because of our involvement in the middle east (and Saudi Arabia's willingness to allow it). It's roots prior to that are in the Afgan-Soviet wars. They hate america because, 1)they hate israel and we support them and 2)they hate any outsiders **** around in the middle east.

    My solution:
    1)Dump money into alternative energy research
    2)Israel is full of bad ****'s. Let them fend for themselves

    Not a solution:
    **** around in the middle east some more...

    I'm surprised it took so long for someone to explicitly blame America for the problems in the Middle East and the attacks on 9/11.

    Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
  • tommyboy
    tommyboy Posts: 1,414
    edited July 2006
    unc2701 wrote:
    Al qaeda formed because of our involvement in the middle east (and Saudi Arabia's willingness to allow it). It's roots prior to that are in the Afgan-Soviet wars. They hate america because, 1)they hate israel and we support them and 2)they hate any outsiders **** around in the middle east.

    My solution:
    1)Dump money into alternative energy research
    2)Israel is full of bad ****'s. Let them fend for themselves

    Not a solution:
    **** around in the middle east some more...

    Think about it, we had been **** around in the middle east WELL before the attacks from 9/11 and the bombing of 1993. Its kind of like the missile crisis in 1962. We forced Russia out of cuba because the had nuclear weapons there. But before that, the U.S. put missiles into turkey aimed at the Soviet Union...

    I feel that you can not destroy every terrorists, because when you do, another will take his place. Its the belief. This is not like WWII were one man trys to take control of the world and if he is taken out (c'mon, even his own soldiers try to take him out) then the war ends. They believe in their muslim faith so much, they are willing to die to protect, just like you are willing to die to protect your country.
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  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,502
    edited July 2006
    getting out of the middle east would stop nothing. just like nothing in recent history caused all this strife. this is sh^t rooted in thousands of years of history. the Koran dictates the utter destruction of all non (muslim) believers. plain and simple.

    I dont see Israeli text calling for our destruction. I dont see isreali's flying planes into our buildings and sending kids and women strapped with bombs into stores and cafes to kill more women and children. Does Israel do bad things? sure, hey...so does the US. No one is perfect, and the perfect moral and idealistic country does not, and never will exist.

    So who do I choose to support, Israel, or those who want to kill us. no brainer here kids. I would hug Jews in the street at friggin random if I thought it would help.

    Noel hit it right on the head. there is NOTHING we can do in the middle east (including completly getting out of it) that will stop muslims from wanting us dead. In any conflict, civilians will die, it sucks, but it happenns anyway.

    I'll take Israel over any middle easter country to support any day of the week.
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  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited July 2006
    tommyboy wrote:
    Think about it, we had been **** around in the middle east WELL before the attacks from 9/11 and the bombing of 1993. Its kind of like the missile crisis in 1962. We forced Russia out of cuba because the had nuclear weapons there. But before that, the U.S. put missiles into turkey aimed at the Soviet Union...

    At least you got this right. Strength of arms and the resolution to use them forced the Soviet Union back and eventually bankrupted their entire system.
    tommyboy wrote:
    I feel that you can not destroy every terrorists, because when you do, another will take his place. Its the belief. This is not like WWII were one man trys to take control of the world and if he is taken out (c'mon, even his own soldiers try to take him out) then the war ends. They believe in their muslim faith so much, they are willing to die to protect, just like you are willing to die to protect your country.

    The key here is they're willing to die. We should help them in this endeavor as much as we can until moderate muslims are better able to exert their influence. Another dead terrorist is never a bad thing.
  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    I'm surprised it took so long for someone to explicitly blame America for the problems in the Middle East and the attacks on 9/11.

    Thanks for confirming my suspicions.


    Look, twenty watt, can you **** read? Those are the goddamn facts of the formation of al-qaeda, look it up dipshit. Al qaeda started out as the islamic Afagn fighters opposing the soviets & assisted by the CIA. Once the USSR gave up occupation, they didn't have much to do until Saddam invaded Kuwait. Bin Laden wanted no Western involvement (and hated saddam, given the seccular government) and offered the Afgan battle trained fighers as support to the Saudi army. Instead the Sauds invited the US in and allowed us to set up bases- thus the current incarnation of Al-qaeda. Their single plank is removing outside interference in islamic affairs.

    Did I blame america for 9/11 OR the problems in the middle east, mouth breather? No.

    **** jackass.

    Oh and just for fun let's have a count of nukes:
    Israel: 500-600
    Iran: 0

    I'm not against Israel and currently it's necessary for the US to have influence in the region due to our oil dependence- thus the part about alternative energy. Learn to read.

    So, go get an american flag tattooed on your balls if you want, but please, dont wave them in my face.
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  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited July 2006
    unc2701 wrote:
    Look, twenty watt, can you **** read? Those are the goddamn facts of the formation of al-qaeda, look it up dipshit. Al qaeda started out as the islamic Afagn fighters opposing the soviets & assisted by the CIA. Once the USSR gave up occupation, they didn't have much to do until Saddam invaded Kuwait. Bin Laden wanted no Western involvement (and hated saddam, given the seccular government) and offered the Afgan battle trained fighers as support to the Saudi army. Instead the Sauds invited the US in and allowed us to set up bases- thus the current incarnation of Al-qaeda. Their single plank is removing outside interference in islamic affairs.

    Did I blame america for 9/11 OR the problems in the middle east, mouth breather? No.

    **** jackass.

    Oh and just for fun let's have a count of nukes:
    Israel: 500-600
    Iran: 0

    I'm not against Israel and currently it's necessary for the US to have influence in the region due to our oil dependence- thus the part about alternative energy. Learn to read.

    So, go get an american flag tattooed on your balls if you want, but please, dont wave them in my face.



    Oh, I must have struck the truth nerve.
  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    Oh, I must have struck the truth nerve.


    Damn, you musta put a lot of thought into that post. Bang up job there, hoss. Got anything other gems of wisdom? Maybe some rubber & glue? or maybe, "you're with the terrorists!!!" Yeah, that's a good one to pull out. **** reference perhaps?

    hmmmm?
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  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,502
    edited July 2006
    and there were no terrorists before Al-qaeda? They've been attacking us long before the Afghan war.

    we didnt create the islamist fundamentalist. we gave them a tasty target perhaps (i.e. us), but they have existed for a long time.

    by there nature and beliefs, we are a natural enemy to them, and they to us. Blaming the US for it isnt going to make that fact change
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  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,502
    edited July 2006
    this little snippet from Bill O Reilly pretty much details why I back Israel, and not Palestine/Lebanon/etc.

    "...... in July of 2006, here is the simple and true fact: Tomorrow, if the terrorists stop killing and lay down their arms, the violence in the Middle East and in Iraq, for that matter, will stop. Tomorrow, if Israel throws all of its weapons into the Mediterranean Sea, there will be another Holocaust"


    I'd love for someone to argue that point. I believe no truer words have been spoken
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    ohskigod wrote:
    and there were no terrorists before Al-qaeda? They've been attacking us long before the Afghan war.

    we didnt create the islamist fundamentalist. we gave them a tasty target perhaps (i.e. us), but they have existed for a long time.

    by there nature and beliefs, we are a natural enemy to them, and they to us. Blaming the US for it isnt going to make that fact change


    Yeah, islamic fundamentalism goes back before the soviet-afgan war. Colonialization and the void left as Europeans removed influence would be what shaped it through the 20th century... However, most the roots of current state of the movement revolves around the Gulf war and Soviet-Afgan war. Understanding how those got us where we are should help us in forming our policies for response.

    No one is blaming the US. When did everyone get this persecution complex? However, our interests shaped and will continue to shape their movment and there are things we can do to minimize our role as a target and let them get back to killing each other.
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  • BIZILL
    BIZILL Posts: 5,432
    edited July 2006
    unc2701 wrote:
    Oh and just for fun let's have a count of nukes:
    Israel: 500-600
    Iran: 0
    in your OPINION, if iran had the same amount, who would more readily use theirs for terrorist-type actions? let's keep the count the way it is.
    unc2701 wrote:
    So, go get an american flag tattooed on your balls if you want, but please, dont wave them in my face.

    patriotic tea-bag.

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    bobman1235 wrote:
    I have no facts to back that up, but I never let facts get in the way of my arguments.
  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,502
    edited July 2006
    if someone is going to wave balls in someone's face....all willy nilly, they should at least be shaved...........like **** balls :D ROTFLMAO
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited July 2006
    Hmm, saying that the US staying there caused Al-Quida to attack us pretty much says it all doesn't it?

    US did A, In Response, AQ did B.... Wouldn't that imply the US was at fault since we didn't appease them in the first place?
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  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited July 2006
    BIZILL wrote:
    in your OPINION, if iran had the same amount, who would more readily use theirs for terrorist-type actions? let's keep the count the way it is.


    Or put another way, what's a larger threat to a city in the US?

    Nukes
    Israel: 500-600

    or

    Iran: 1

    The answer to that alone should tell you who we need to support. War is never about killing each other equally. It's about pounding the enemy into submission before they can get a shot off at you.
  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    BIZILL wrote:
    in your OPINION, if iran had the same amount, who would more readily use theirs for terrorist-type actions? let's keep the count the way it is.

    With you there. My point was that Israel's got a handle on the situation. Think they're gonna watch Iran build nukes?
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    ohskigod wrote:
    if someone is going to wave balls in someone's face....all willy nilly, they should at least be shaved...........like **** balls :D ROTFLMAO


    Ever gotten a tattoo? Yeah, there's always some shaving.
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  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,502
    edited July 2006
    unc2701 wrote:
    our interests shaped and will continue to shape their movment and there are things we can do to minimize our role as a target and let them get back to killing each other.


    I feel there is no way to do this. backing off in the face of Islamic fundamentalism, which I equate to a school yard bully in tactics and cowardice, would only embolden them. Maybe there was a time back in the day we could have taken this route, and I mean WAY back in the day. but that day is long gone.
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  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited July 2006
    unc2701 wrote:
    20ixhd0.jpg

    Yeah, thats what I figured.
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    jdhdiggs wrote:
    Hmm, saying that the US staying there caused Al-Quida to attack us pretty much says it all doesn't it?

    US did A, In Response, AQ did B.... Wouldn't that imply the US was at fault since we didn't appease them in the first place?

    Dude, you know that's a stupid argument. If i'd said that AQ was justified in their response, you might have a point. BUt i didn't and they're not justified.

    You tell your kids not to talk to strangers, but that doesn't make it their fault if they do and get kidnapped. Not a perfect analogy, but you get my point.
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2006
    MacLeod wrote:
    Yeah, thats what I figured.

    So you have no frame of reference here, Donny!!!

    You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and...



    WTF are you posting a soviet flag for?
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  • Skynut
    Skynut Posts: 2,967
    edited July 2006
    Look....
    on the next page...
    It's a squirell...
    it's a cowbell...


    no it's...
    A heated world debate.
    Skynut
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited July 2006
    I just read it the same way most here read it. Perhaps it's not all of our reading comprehension abilities that are faulty, but rather your ability to write your ideas clearly.
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
  • BIZILL
    BIZILL Posts: 5,432
    edited July 2006
    sucks, but the thing is, we can probably never again pull out our influences from the middle east. history has taken place. if we ever pull out, then that territory will probably unify, not israel, and one day try to come after us. i don't think we'll ever be able to 'leave ourselves out'. i wish we were able to 'mind our own business'. but we cannot.

    we can help countries like iraq find democracy. i doubt many fundamentalists even want that. but even if iraq were to rebuild itself into an independant democracy, i feel they will ALWAYS hate america, even though we helped set them free from oppression.

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    bobman1235 wrote:
    I have no facts to back that up, but I never let facts get in the way of my arguments.
  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited July 2006
    Naw, those guys have been happily killing themselves for thousands of years. If there weren't Christians or Jews in the area, they'd be killing eachother:

    Sunni vs. Shiite
    Palestianians vs. Jordon
    Kurds vs. Sunni's
    etc...
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin