World War III

ohskigod

my bet's with Isreal on this one. no way to refuel? they'll find a way.
everyone forgets the age old statement "dont f#@k with the Jews"

Demiurge

ohskigod wrote:

my bet's with Isreal on this one. no way to refuel? they'll find a way.
everyone forgets the age old statement "dont f#@k with the Jews"

Lou, they don't have anywhere they can land their jets other than Israel. They don't posess the capability to refuel in flight like we can do here in the United States Air Force. They don't have an extensive air refueling wing in their air force.

They'd have to get the U.S. to let them stage an air campaign from Iraq, and something tells me that the Iraqi's wouldn't let them even if they wanted to. I also know the U.S. wouldn't support an attack on Iran by Israel anyhow. I wish we would, but we won't.

The only two countries that Israel can do any significant damage to that are involved in this conflict are Syria and Lebanon. War has changed in that an ability to bomb strategic points held by your enemy is essential in winning a war. The last thing Israel wants is a sustained ground war surrounded by hostile nations by themselves. At least now they have their homeland defenses to protect them somewhat.

Bottom line is this isn't at all a question of will. I've been supporting Israel this entire thread, and I don't at all question their will. They've been fightint this particular battle since the mid 1940s. Not to mention they aren't even trying to fight Iran.

tommyboy

cheddar wrote:

Yeah, I get that. But it still sounds like he's blaming the US for the plan to divide up palestine. The UN operated then as it still does, half-assed and hobbled by the europeans and the veto members.

Buddy,

Not for one second did I blame just the U.S. for the division of palestine, but we are a part of the U.N, are we not. So what is the problem with saying we. Ok, for future posts we=U.N:).

Thanks demi and cheddar for the explanation. One thing I did learn in my Religions of the World class in college, is that muslims believe that their religion to be the new religion, they believe that jewish and christians are Gods old religions. And I guess they will fight to the death to prove it...

BIZILL

fucc the UN.

Demiurge

tommyboy wrote:

Buddy,

Not for one second did I blame just the U.S. for the division of palestine, but we are a part of the U.N, are we not. So what is the problem with saying we. Ok, for future posts we=U.N:).

Thanks demi and cheddar for the explanation. One thing I did learn in my Religions of the World class in college, is that muslims believe that their religion to be the new religion, they believe that jewish and christians are Gods old religions. And I guess they will fight to the death to prove it...

...and sadly the U.N. has never been able to do a damn thing. If anything they've been able to prolong the inevitable from time to time.

cheddar

tommyboy wrote:

Buddy,

Not for one second did I blame just the U.S. for the division of palestine, but we are a part of the U.N, are we not. So what is the problem with saying we. Ok, for future posts we=U.N:)

It's just like saying they(egypt) divided palestine. Egypt is a member of the UN too. It doesn't really mean anything to say whatever the UN does, the US must have done too. The UN does lots of questionable things and many of them are clearly not the fault of the United States is all I was saying. It's better to lay the blame on the countries that actually screw things up.

Case in point: We (UN) decided not to impose sanctions on North Korea for its missile tests is just a rediculous statement. China blocked the sanctions we wanted, plain and simple.

Here is a nice map of the British Mandate from League of Nations times:
<img src=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/BritishMandatePalestine1920.jpg></img&gt;
And here's what the british said they'd do as far back as 1922:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

opus

Doesn't Israel have some sort of Cruise missle that they could use? Maybe I'm showing my age but they still use Cruise misssles don't they?

tommyboy

cheddar wrote:

It's just like saying they(egypt) divided palestine. Egypt is a member of the UN too. It doesn't really mean anything to say whatever the UN does, the US must have done too. The UN does lots of questionable things and many of them are clearly not the fault of the United States is all I was saying. It's better to lay the blame on the countries that actually screw things up.

Case in point: We (UN) decided not to impose sanctions on North Korea for its missile tests is just a rediculous statement. China blocked the sanctions we wanted, plain and simple.

cheddar, I'm sorry man, but everything I said had nothing to do with the U.S.'s control of the U.N. But since we are on the point, if you are telling me that the U.S. help win the war, help build the U.N., but didn't have a say in the division of palestine is ridiculous. Alright thats enough with the U.S influence on the U.N. That was never my point. What demi told me is what I wanted to know. I always feel the most important question then any other is why.

cheddar

tommyboy wrote:

cheddar, I'm sorry man, but everything I said had nothing to do with the U.S.'s control of the U.N. But since we are on the point, if you are telling me that the U.S. help win the war, help build the U.N., but didn't have a say in the division of palestine is ridiculous. Alright thats enough with the U.S influence on the U.N. That was never my point. What demi told me is what I wanted to know. I always feel the most important question then any other is why.

Tommyboy, the brits set things in motion way before hitler came to power, and they were out in front the whole way. Don't just assume the US is at the center of everything bad, do some research. Misinformation like you're spreading only fans the flames of hatred toward the US. Read about it yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

tommyboy

cheddar wrote:

Tommyboy, the brits set things in motion way before hitler came to power, and they were out in front the whole way. Don't just assume the US is at the center of everything bad, do some research. Misinformation like you're spreading only fans the flames of hatred toward the US. Read about it yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Ok, im going to say this one more time. I am not blaming the U.S. for whats going on in the middle east, ok change subject.

cheddar

Done!

Here's an article about Israel's options for bombing Iran:

http://francona.blogspot.com/2006/03/iran-israels-air-strike-options.html

MacLeod

Thom wrote:

So they resorted to plenty of shady practices to "take back the land that the bible says is theirs", but the Arabs are the crazy religious nuts. :rolleyes:

Right. They are. You dont see Jews flying planes into buildings or beheading innocent civilians or bombing restaurants. But you do see a whole bunch of muslims doing it.

Right, it's just that black and white, no shades of gray.

Right. Israel is the good guys and muslim terrorists (i.e. hamas and hezblah) are the bad guys.

Both sides are dead wrong.

No, just the ones that fly planes into buldings yada yada yada. Israel virtually submitted to all of hamas' demands and gave them almost all the land they were wanting and yet theyre still attacked by these scum. Jordan is responsible for killing more muslims AND taking over more of Palestines land than Israel is. Dont see too many suicide bombings in Jordan.

And this nonsense with the two soldiers was just another excuse.

No. It was the last straw. Big difference.

Both sides keep claiming they only do what they do as retaliation for what the other guy did last time. Going back before most of us were born. So if you pick up the story at any given point you can give sympathy to either side. And of course the corporate, mainstream media gives their one- sided view every night on every newscast. So it must be true. I saw a 60 second wrap up of what happened last week, it's all very clear now...

All you have to do is go to the point where Israel gave hamas everything they wanted.....and yet theyre still being attacked.

And as far as nukes go, who is the only country to ever drop them on others? I would think that's the country that can't be trusted with their finger on the button.

Well, as long as you dont bomb one of our harbors unprovoked and kill thousands of our citizens, we wont drop a nuke on you.

MacLeod

Thom wrote:

And not that Hezbollah's a bunch of saints, but they've done plenty of good for people, in addition to their very destructive acts. So if you're part of the poor population in southern Palestein and Hezbollah is responsible for food, medical care, and education you might be quite fond of them. Especially if you don't have the internet to read up on both sides and see that they do plenty of wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Two sides...

Hitler, Stalin and Hussein did a lot of good for their citizens as well. At least the ones that they didnt torture, kill or imprison.

For God's sake man. Theyre f**king terrorists!! There arent 2 sides to this issue. Theyre evil, murdering, barbaric, mindless, brutal, savage animals. PERIOD! And if youre still seeing gray, dig up the Nick Berg video and watch it a couple times. And while theyre slowly sawing his head off while he screams, keep telling yourself they have done a lot of good for their citizens.

You know I love ya man but you guys have got to get some better ventilation in that install bay! Those fiberglass fumes are messing with ya....or maybe its the whole "living in Maryland" thing thats finally gotten to ya.

Thom

So there's no bad people at all on Israel's side? And every single person in Lebanon is evil, down to the infants that are being killed by Israel? Like I said, I'm not on either side, I think they both suck. But to say that Israel is above criticism is absurd. Their state was partly founded on terrorist actions.

You even go on about how far advanced they are, so should they really be killing WAY more innocent civilians than Hezbullah, who are basically shooting bottle rockets?

I wish I could believe that all people are good, and everyone in government cares more about the people they represent than their bank accounts, but the billions we've given/ sold to Israel over the years makes it obvious who we're going to side with. No matter what they do.

But I'll keep trying to believe, and I'll look for that money under my son's pillow when he loses his next tooth. Let me know what Santa Claus brings you for Christmas. I asked for a unicorn...

BIZILL

i tend to look at situations with regard to 'long term'. i say get rid of as many as we can now. (hezbollans and terrorists) but i do agree with critics that want for israel to attempt to 'better' target the hezbollah and not so much the lebonese civilians. i'd like to see lebanon continue on with democracy, if possible. i hope hezbollah is made rid of and they/we don't breed possible new terrorists for ruining lebanon's country. but sometimes a few 'decent' folk need to learn to evacuate, oops,i mean cast out occupying armys on their own, or suffer some consequences.

Demiurge

Thom wrote:

So there's no bad people at all on Israel's side? And every single person in Lebanon is evil, down to the infants that are being killed by Israel? Like I said, I'm not on either side, I think they both suck. But to say that Israel is above criticism is absurd. Their state was partly founded on terrorist actions.

You even go on about how far advanced they are, so should they really be killing WAY more innocent civilians than Hezbullah, who are basically shooting bottle rockets?

I wish I could believe that all people are good, and everyone in government cares more about the people they represent than their bank accounts, but the billions we've given/ sold to Israel over the years makes it obvious who we're going to side with. No matter what they do.

But I'll keep trying to believe, and I'll look for that money under my son's pillow when he loses his next tooth. Let me know what Santa Claus brings you for Christmas. I asked for a unicorn...

Thom, you do sound like you're arguing in support of Hezbollah, which shows you don't know much about them. Wikipedia isn't exactly a kosher (pun intended) source for accurate information.

No, everyone in Israel isn't good. They're a good nation overall, and in any good nation there is going to be bad eggs. We have the same problem here. You're telling me Israel can't protect itself? That they're not allowed to send a message to a known terrorist organization, or even wipe them out? The leader of Hezbollah had his own son strap bombs on himself and blow himself up.

As far as your civilian comment. What country, or groups, hide their military munitions among civilians? Then when Israel takes out rocket sites that Hezbollah hides among their civilian population you call Israel the bad guys? That's hilarious.

Since the people that criticize these spats between countries and the wars we wage to protect our freedoms because others don't want to live unless we're dead -- do you have any soultions of your own? What is Israel supposed to do? Just sit there while terrorist groups blow up marketplaces in the middle of the day without warning?

You can live in the fantasy land where there are no bad guys and no good guys if you want, because that's essentially what I am hearing.

PolkThug

Tell the families of our fallen and wounded US servicemen of the USS Liberty how great the Israelis are.

Demiurge

PolkThug wrote:

Tell the families of our fallen and wounded US servicemen of the USS Liberty how great the Israelis are.

Yep, it was tragedy. It's also wholly accepted as an accident by our government, unless you're a conspiracy theorist. It's like saying because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor that they're now not our ally. That because elements of the German military that fought against us with the **** that they're now not our ally.

Let's not be silly.

PolkThug

Demiurge wrote:

Let's not be silly.

Well I guess the surviving crew and then-CIA director Richard Helms and then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk as well as Admiral Thomas Hinman Moorer, former Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are all silly then.

Demiurge

PolkThug wrote:

Well I guess the surviving crew and then-CIA director Richard Helms and then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk as well as Admiral Thomas Hinman Moorer, former Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are all silly then.

No, they're in doubt of what happened, which is fine.

The sillyness is when someone like yourself will condemn an entire country of people as being bad because they killed 34 American service personel in what our government recognizes as an accidental attack. If it's intentional, where is the pattern of agression against the U.S.?

What say you about the Japanese and Germans? The Japanese launched the largest attack against our country 2nd only to 9/11.

unc2701

Yeah, but I think the safest statement would be "israel does what's best for israel". We're not allies, so much as our interests happen to align- as soon as that changes, Israel will happily f*ck us over.

Demiurge

unc2701 wrote:

Yeah, but I think the safest statement would be "israel does what's best for israel". We're not allies, so much as our interests happen to align- as soon as that changes, Israel will happily f*ck us over.

I don't know what that statement is based on, but assuming that's true I would still go with what we're doing. Cleaning out the Middle East is of benefit to everyone.

tommyboy

Demiurge wrote:

I don't know what that statement is based on, but assuming that's true I would still go with what we're doing. Cleaning out the Middle East is of benefit to everyone.

Demi, quick question, what is your definition of "cleaning out"? just curious

Demiurge

tommyboy wrote:

Demi, quick question, what is your definition of "cleaning out"? just curious

Removing the governments that create a breeding ground of hate where children in schools are taught to look an anyone that isn't of their faith as infidels. The rest of the world won't live one day of peace with that going around. Governments that support strapping bombs on plain clothes civilians and ask them to walk into densely populated public places and blow themselves up as a martyr in the name of Allah.

You've had a handful of people claiming to be Christians blowing up abortion clinics. You've got people like Reverend Phelps who couldn't be further away from being an actual Christian if he tried. In the grand scheme of things they're a fringe portion of Christianity. It's definitely something that's evolved over the years whether you agree with it or not. Islam hasn't changed one iota and the attacks are getting larger as they get their hands on more sophisticaed warefare. What's more is that you'll hear Christians speaking out against and condemning the violence perpetrated people who try to stand behind it. You don't hear that from the Muslims, which is telling.

The above are just my feelings.

I think the world would obviously benefit from a terrorist state that didn't have nuclear weapons, don't you?

ND13

I say just turn the damn place into a sheet of glass and get the inevitable over with, before they can do the same to us or our interests. Don't think they won't, at least, try to do so if they get their hands on the bomb. They will, without hesitation.;)

tommyboy

Demiurge wrote:

Removing the governments that create a breeding ground of hate where children in schools are taught to look an anyone that isn't of their faith as infidels. The rest of the world won't live one day of peace with that going around. Governments that support strapping bombs on plain clothes civilians and ask them to walk into densely populated public places and blow themselves up as a martyr in the name of Allah.

You've had a handful of people claiming to be Christians blowing up abortion clinics. You've got people like Reverend Phelps who couldn't be further away from being an actual Christian if he tried. In the grand scheme of things they're a fringe portion of Christianity. It's definitely something that's evolved over the years whether you agree with it or not. Islam hasn't changed one iota and the attacks are getting larger as they get their hands on more sophisticaed warefare. What's more is that you'll hear Christians speaking out against and condemning the violence perpetrated people who try to stand behind it. You don't hear that from the Muslims, which is telling.

The above are just my feelings.

I think the world would obviously benefit from a terrorist state that didn't have nuclear weapons, don't you?

I see your point but I think invasions of these muslim countries will cause much worse terrorist acts then what we see now. We would also lose many allies support, just like we did with the invasion of Iraq. I don't know what to do... thats why I'm not president, but IMO that would be the wrong thing to do...

Thom

Demiurge wrote:

Thom, you do sound like you're arguing in support of Hezbollah, which shows you don't know much about them. Wikipedia isn't exactly a kosher (pun intended) source for accurate information.

Not at all, I'm just saying I don't see a difference between what they do and what Israel does. They're both wrong, as I've said. Wikipedia seems to be a pretty Israeli- friendly source of info, which is why I quoted them, not some conspiracy theory sites.

You can live in the fantasy land where there are no bad guys and no good guys if you want, because that's essentially what I am hearing.

I think the world is full of more bad people than good, especially those running things. In every country, ally or not. They're out for their hidden bank accounts, not people's best interests.

Thom

Demiurge wrote:

No, they're in doubt of what happened, which is fine.

The sillyness is when someone like yourself will condemn an entire country of people as being bad because they killed 34 American service personel in what our government recognizes as an accidental attack. If it's intentional, where is the pattern of agression against the U.S.?

What say you about the Japanese and Germans? The Japanese launched the largest attack against our country 2nd only to 9/11.

They wouldn't have the balls to outright attack us because they'd be cut off, who else will give them the money we do. I believe the theory is that it was a false flag attack intended to get the US to strike against Egypt, which we almost did. Like the Lavon affair. Not that I subscibe to all conspiracy theories, but it's not as far fetched as aliens

Demiurge

tommyboy wrote:

I see your point but I think invasions of these muslim countries will cause much worse terrorist acts then what we see now. We would also lose many allies support, just like we did with the invasion of Iraq. I don't know what to do... thats why I'm not president, but IMO that would be the wrong thing to do...

That's probably why we're different than the rest of the world. We're the world's police force, and I realize some think we shouldn't even bother anymore. I'd agree with that stance if it wasn't in our interest to stop terrorist states that would hit us any chance they got.

I don't know if I am right in this assumption, but it seems as if you're under the impression these people can be negotiated with. They can't. They don't understand diplomacy, which is exactly why this is such a big problem that needs to be dealt with now rather than later.

They hate us, and wouldn't think twice about lopping your head off, even if you're one of the pacifist Americans. They only understand fear and death, and they operate using fear.

Thom

...and plenty of people to this day still have a problem with "**** cars." Myself not included, as I drive one.