World War III

Thom

And not that Hezbollah's a bunch of saints, but they've done plenty of good for people, in addition to their very destructive acts. So if you're part of the poor population in southern Palestein and Hezbollah is responsible for food, medical care, and education you might be quite fond of them. Especially if you don't have the internet to read up on both sides and see that they do plenty of wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Two sides...

Demiurge

Israel isn't wrong. They're the ones who would love to live a peaceful existence with their neighbors. They've given everything that's ever been demanded of them, and then some. Eventually the world needs to wake up and realize that the fanatic side of Islam doesn't want to live with the rest of the world, be it Christians, Jews, Hindu, Shintoist, Buddhist, etc. The unfortunate part is that the fanatic side of Islam is nearly all of the middle east.

ledhed

Demiurge wrote:

Eventually the world needs to wake up and realize that the fanatic side of Islam doesn't want to live with the rest of the world, be it Christians, Jews, Hindu, Shintoist, Buddhist, etc. The unfortunate part is that the fanatic side of Islam is nearly all of the middle east.

I agree but, the biggest problem is that the fanatic of any religion don't want any others to exist. My biggest fear is actually FOR Israel - we (the U.S) is pretty much their only ally and if the big **** hits the fan, we are all tied up in Iraq to do much.

BIZILL

can't we all just get along? no? okay. sucks. but i know i would hate to be in isreal's shoes as well. sort of like being a lonely skinny kid amongst a bunch of mean, tough bullies. okay, his dad (U.S.) cares for his safety, but he is at work making a living for the family --edited: he is fighting his own battles. -- and is not by his immediate side. that would be a scenario to fear, especially since fists are not the only things lobbed at each other.

editted again: i feel we share the same battle. terrorism.

ND13

The tally so far in Lebanon.....Israelis dead-25 Lebonese dead-247
Looks like a 10 to 1 ratio to me. You'd think somebody would learn.

heiney9

I'm moving to France!:p .

Seriously, it's gettin' kinda scary. I almost don't want to turn on the news anymore. I'm sick to death of hearing about war and death and dying. It's become a normal part of life since 9/11 and it appears, atleast for my generation, it's going to be a normal part of life from now on. There have always been scuffles and tension throughout the world for as far back as I can remember, but in the last 6-8 years it's been a constant issue at the forfront of our lives. It appears to be another neccesity of life. I feel sad about that.

H9

tommyboy

Let me get this straight, thousands and thousands of people died, counting all the way back to the crusades(I think inlcuding 9/11), just because three religions(all three generall pretty similar) consider this piece of land to be holy and want to have control over it. Is this really what God/Allah wanted, followers to kill eachother just cause their prophets walked on that land(I guess thats how you consider land holy, I don't know:) ). Well, I guess that is what all war is about, land and power, I guess this is no different...

polkatese

Isn't ironic to think that RELIGIONS KILL....

hey, someone should start make those bumper sticker.

Maurice

ledhed wrote:

My biggest fear is actually FOR Israel - we (the U.S) is pretty much their only ally and if the big **** hits the fan, we are all tied up in Iraq to do much.

If the US would untie Israel's hands, they would clean up the middle east in 30 days. The only reason they haven't is because the US tries to keep them in check. Israel may be small, but they are fierce and they play to win. Israel understands that the only way to deal with Islamic fundamentalists is to KILL them. Diplomatic negotiations are a joke. They have NEVER worked.

BIZILL

Maurice wrote:

Israel may be small, but they are fierce and they play to win. Israel understands that the only way to deal with Islamic fundamentalists is to KILL them. Diplomatic negotiations are a joke. They have NEVER worked.

WE could learn from THEM.

Demiurge

Hezbollah just blasted a rocket into Nazareth. For those who don't know it's a pretty big holy site in Israel.

I wonder if the MSM will report that on the news and denounce it like they do when our military has to get terrorists out of Mosques where the enemy is hiding like the spineless twits they are. If these animals didn't have women and children to hide behind I wonder what would they would do. :rolleyes:

cheddar

unc2701 wrote:

Ok, i thought you were suggesting more of a cult of personality / single individual manipulating a population-type theory.

You're going more with a "there's a subset of humanity, (which is greater than one or two in a given society, but still less than a sizeable proportion), which are **** and are behind wars & acts of agression."

WWI lacked the individual component, which is why I asked.

I can get behind the more general one.

Actually, all the aristocratic "royals" and their treaties with each other started the war. The common man didn't know WTF was happening to him for the whole war. A good argument against totalitarian rule by any king or royal family. All the european royals were just a group of inbred "let them eat cake" types by this point.

They even had a Christmas truce as common soldiers decided killing each other for the stupid aristocrats was stupid and they started to crawl out of the trenches and play soccer with each other. Then the aristocratic officers started shooting people and they were back to war again. Definitely plays into the evil few manipulating the majority theory...

tommyboy

cheddar wrote:

Actually, all the aristocratic "royals" and their treaties with each other started the war. The common man didn't know WTF was happening to him for the whole war. A good argument against totalitarian rule by any king or royal family. All the european royals were just a group of inbred "let them eat cake" types by this point.

They even had a Christmas truce as common soldiers decided killing each other for the stupid aristocrats was stupid and they started to crawl out of the trenches and play soccer with each other. Then the aristocratic officers started shooting people and they were back to war again. Definitely plays into the evil few manipulating the majority theory...

They should of just let the leaders fight eachother instead of the soldiers, that would have saved millions of lives in that war...

cheddar

Maurice wrote:

If the US would untie Israel's hands, they would clean up the middle east in 30 days. The only reason they haven't is because the US tries to keep them in check. Israel may be small, but they are fierce and they play to win. Israel understands that the only way to deal with Islamic fundamentalists is to KILL them. Diplomatic negotiations are a joke. They have NEVER worked.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stomping on the terrorists like the insects they are. But Hamas and Hezbollah are just the cockroaches that will never go away until Syria and Iran are taken out. And Israel, for all its military might, isn't set up to actually invade and occupy either of these countries. Anything short of that will only promote fanatics out of Iran to do who knows what especially to our troops in Iraq. And these are the guys who fought Saddam to a stalemate in the Iran-Iraq war without all the Soviet made weapons and poison gas that Saddam used.

So the question comes back to: Is the US ready to do what it will really take to pound the muslims into submission? It's going to be up to the US to take out Iran if it comes to that. We control the airspace around Iran, and we've got the troops on their border. What Israel does always involves the US.

Demiurge

cheddar wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stomping on the terrorists like the insects they are. But Hamas and Hezbollah are just the cockroaches that will never go away until Syria and Iran are taken out. And Israel, for all its military might, isn't set up to actually invade and occupy either of these countries. Anything short of that will only promote fanatics out of Iran to do who knows what especially to our troops in Iraq. And these are the guys who fought Saddam to a stalemate in the Iran-Iraq war without all the Soviet made weapons and poison gas that Saddam used.

So the question comes back to: Is the US ready to do what it will really take to pound the muslims into submission? It's going to be up to the US to take out Iran if it comes to that. We control the airspace around Iran, and we've got the troops on their border. What Israel does always involves the US.

I think it's stupid for the U.S. not to do what Israel would really like to do and take care of it now, we're going to have to do it eventually anyhow. With the comments from Iran's leader yesterday, how could one have any doubt of their intentions? He called for the extermination of Israel.

I'd like to see Syria and Iran dismantled before they have nuclear weapons, not when it's nearly impossible after.

tommyboy

Knowing all you know now, do you think that we (the United Nations) should have given the jewish the state of Isreal? I know how terrible they were treated in the holocaust, but shouldn't they have given the jewish some land in Germany instead...

I know that the Muslims took over the holy land from the Jews long ago, but that had nothing to do with WWII.
In the end, what has Isreal done for us?(this is an actual question, I really don't know) This alone is the reason the middle east is the way it is today.

read-alot

Let the CIA or whoever have their bullets back.

I liked it the old way when we didn't get to hear how bad these guys were before we extinguished them.

cheddar

Demiurge wrote:

I think it's stupid for the U.S. not to do what Israel would really like to do and take care of it now, we're going to have to do it eventually anyhow. With the comments from Iran's leader yesterday, how could one have any doubt of their intentions? He called for the extermination of Israel.

I'd like to see Syria and Iran dismantled before they have nuclear weapons, not when it's nearly impossible after.

Yep, Israel responded with massive force for the kidnapping of a couple of soldiers. If we had invaded Iran after they kidnapped our whole embassy, we could have stopped fanatical islam in its early days. Before the fanatical Ayatollahs, Iran was a solid ally against the Soviets. We sold them F-14 fighters for crying out loud.

But of course, Jimmy Carter started us down the road of appeasement and letting fanatics beat up on the US until the towers came down.

Demiurge

tommyboy wrote:

Knowing all you know now, do you think that we (the United Nations) should have given the jewish the state of Isreal? I know how terrible they were treated in the holocaust, but shouldn't they have given the jewish some land in Germany instead...

I know that the Muslims took over the holy land from the Jews long ago, but that had nothing to do with WWII.
In the end, what has Isreal done for us?(this is an actual question, I really don't know) This alone is the reason the middle east is the way it is today.

This has nothing to do with land when you get down to the crux of the issue. The Muslims do indeed hate the Jews and would love nothing more than to do what **** Germany did to the Jews in WWII.

I found this map slightly amusing:



I know the Iranians consder themselves Persian, but they're an Islamic state. Couple what Israel has with all it has given in to the Islamic demands and they still want them dead. It's naive to suggest this has anything to do with land.

cheddar

tommyboy wrote:

Knowing all you know now, do you think that we (the United Nations) should have given the jewish the state of Isreal? I know how terrible they were treated in the holocaust, but shouldn't they have given the jewish some land in Germany instead...

I know that the Muslims took over the holy land from the Jews long ago, but that had nothing to do with WWII.
In the end, what has Isreal done for us?(this is an actual question, I really don't know) This alone is the reason the middle east is the way it is today.

First, we didn't create the UN mess, the europeans and primarily the brits did. Second, your question is a little like asking if the europeans should have shafted the germans so badly with treaty of versailles. Sure the germans got a bad deal. But when hitler came to power, he should have been eliminated like the evil thug he was instead of appeased and groveled to in order to 'keep the peace'. Appeasement doesn't save lives in the long term.

Versailles didn't create hitler, the choices of a wall paper hanger and the complicity of the german people did. Just as the creation of osama and the ayatollahs has nothing to do with the UN and everything to do with radical islamists and the common muslims who don't dare to speak out against them. At least the arabs and the persians got all the oil. Maybe we should give them rhode island for the oil reserves. They got such a bad deal...;)

tommyboy

Demiurge wrote:

This has nothing to do with land when you get down to the crux of the issue. The Muslims do indeed hate the Jews and would love nothing more than to do what **** Germany did to the Jews in WWII.

I found this map slightly amusing:



I know the Iranians consder themselves Persian, but they're an Islamic state. Couple what Israel has with all it has given in to the Islamic demands and they still want them dead. It's naive to suggest this has anything to do with land.

I'm sorry for so many questions, do you know why muslims hate jews (and americans for backing up Isreal) so much then? I always thought the biggest reason was because the jews took their holy land. Its not like the jews killed off Mohamad(its spelled wrong, I know:) ) like they killed Jesus...

And this isn't like the treaty of versaille because we weren't at war with the palestians and were trying to pull payback on them. We (the UN) were trying to help the jewish by giving them a homeland and pushed the muslims aside to do so.I don't know, it doesn't matter anymore, that was 60 years ago now...

cheddar

tommyboy wrote:

I'm sorry for so many questions, do you know why muslims hate jews (and americans for backing up Isreal) so much then? I always thought the biggest reason was because the jews took their holy land. Its not like the jews killed off Mohamad(its spelled wrong, I know:) ) like they killed Jesus...

And this isn't like the treaty of versaille because we weren't at war with the palestians and were trying to pull payback on them. We (the UN) were trying to help the jewish by giving them a homeland and pushed the muslims aside to do so.I don't know, it doesn't matter anymore, that was 60 years ago now...

'We' are not the UN. Why do you want to link the US to what the UN and the europeans did after WWII? The british controlled the area at the end of WWII as a hold over from their colonial days. And nobody was at war with palestine. The area was carved up somewhat arbitrarily just like versaille carved up germany after WWI. The biggest reason the current generation of muslims hate Israel and the US is that their parents and their religious leaders tell them to. AlJazeera, Hamas, Iran, are pretty unified in the propaganda the people get. Haifa, Tel Aviv, none of these cities are holy to the muslims. Jerusalem and the west bank were captured after the Arab-Israeli wars. If the Arabs had just shut up and done nothing, Israel would own nothing but olive orchards.

Demiurge

cheddar wrote:

'We' are not the UN.

I think he means without the U.S. the UN wouldn't exist. He's pretty much correct. It's funny we're the jugular of an organization that does everything in it's policy to block the U.S.

Maurice

Demiurge wrote:

I think it's stupid for the U.S. not to do what Israel would really like to do and take care of it now, we're going to have to do it eventually anyhow. With the comments from Iran's leader yesterday, how could one have any doubt of their intentions? He called for the extermination of Israel.

I'd like to see Syria and Iran dismantled before they have nuclear weapons, not when it's nearly impossible after.

Trust me, If nobody steps up to deal with Iran, Israel will. They will not allow Iran to become a nuclear power knowing that the 1st missile is headed their way. When it comes down to it, Israel will protect themselves regardless of who likes it or not(notice whats happening right now). At best all the US can do is moderate. Besides that, no matter what the rest of the world thinks, US and Israel are a majority in ANY conflict. Thats why as much as the arab world hates us, they KNOW they dont have what it takes to take both of us on.:cool:

cheddar

Demiurge wrote:

I think he means without the U.S. the UN wouldn't exist. He's pretty much correct. It's funny we're the jugular of an organization that does everything in it's policy to block the U.S.

Yeah, I get that. But it still sounds like he's blaming the US for the plan to divide up palestine. The UN operated then as it still does, half-assed and hobbled by the europeans and the veto members.

Demiurge

tommyboy wrote:

I'm sorry for so many questions, do you know why muslims hate jews (and americans for backing up Isreal) so much then? I always thought the biggest reason was because the jews took their holy land. Its not like the jews killed off Mohamad(its spelled wrong, I know:) ) like they killed Jesus...

And this isn't like the treaty of versaille because we weren't at war with the palestians and were trying to pull payback on them. We (the UN) were trying to help the jewish by giving them a homeland and pushed the muslims aside to do so.I don't know, it doesn't matter anymore, that was 60 years ago now...

The Middle Eastern Muslims, generally speaking, hate anyone who isn't Muslim. It's got very little to do with Jews so much as it does the non-Muslim world. That's why they slammed planes into the trade center towers and pentagon. As far as how the rest of the Muslim world is, well -- the jury is out. I know people will jump up and down for a comment like that, but show me the Muslim leaders that are speaking out against all of the terrorism that has been perpetuated not only on their own people, but on the rest of the wrold.

I'd think it would be a good idea to give the non-fanatical Muslims a chance to live in this century with the rest of us, but who knows what is going to happen.

The million dollar question for you is this. Lets assume no Jews exist in Israel any longer. Lets assume it's a completely Muslim occupied land. Do you think for one second they're apetite for blood is satiated and that we can all just relax?

Bin Laden didn't hit America to get back at the Jews.

This is a kill or be killed fight. Everyone thought 9/11 was a wake-up call, but some need their head slapped again. How much more will this country need take before it really lets it's balls drop?

Demiurge

Maurice wrote:

Trust me, If nobody steps up to deal with Iran, Israel will. They will not allow Iran to become a nuclear power knowing that the 1st missile is headed their way. When it comes down to it, Israel will protect themselves regardless of who likes it or not(notice whats happening right now). At best all the US can do is moderate. Besides that, no matter what the rest of the world thinks, US and Israel are a majority in ANY conflict. Thats why as much as the arab world hates us, they KNOW they dont have what it takes to take both of us on.:cool:

As it sits now they can't. If they could, I know they would. The Israeli Air Force has no refueling capabilities. Their planes would crash before they could execute a bombing campaign in Iran. They would need our help, or help from the UK. I know that Israel has the firepower to completely wipe out Iran, and Syria, but they don't have the means to launch an air campaign in Iran which is a huge part of any military campaign these days.

cheddar

Maurice wrote:

Trust me, If nobody steps up to deal with Iran, Israel will. They will not allow Iran to become a nuclear power knowing that the 1st missile is headed their way. When it comes down to it, Israel will protect themselves regardless of who likes it or not(notice whats happening right now). At best all the US can do is moderate. Besides that, no matter what the rest of the world thinks, US and Israel are a majority in ANY conflict. Thats why as much as the arab world hates us, they KNOW they dont have what it takes to take both of us on.:cool:

No doubt. They took out Iraq's nuclear reactor by flying their bombers in tight formation to mimic a commercial jet liner. Iraq never had a clue what hit them. Now, though, it's US combat air patrols that will have to scoot out of the way for Israel to hit Iran. They can't do anything without our green light.

mhardy6647

the schism between Judaism and Islam dates back to Abram (Abraham) and his illegitimate son Ishmael (by Hagar). Even though this 'event' far predates Mohammed's birth and the founding of Islam, it's at the root of Arab/Jewish enmity to this day.

Maurice

mhardy6647 wrote:

the schism between Judaism and Islam dates back to Abram (Abraham) and his illegitimate son Ishmael (by Hagar). Even though this 'event' far predates Mohammed's birth and the founding of Islam, it's at the root of Arab/Jewish enmity to this day.

ding ding ding, we have a winner!