Polk Audio system in my boat.

Red230SX

audiobliss wrote:

Awesome!

Wow AudioBliss seems like we have similar taste in equipment!

I have ASL Wave20DT Monoblocks, Acoustic Research AR9's and a Parasound
Halo P3 Preamp!

audiobliss

Hey, I hadn't noticed that. The Wave 8's are my first foray into tube equipment, but I'm loving it! I'm trying to get a *cheap* tube pre and then maybe a tube headphone amp. Do you have any other tube equipment? How efficient are your AR9's? I guess they'd be pretty efficient...

Red230SX

audiobliss wrote:

Hey, I hadn't noticed that. The Wave 8's are my first foray into tube equipment, but I'm loving it! I'm trying to get a *cheap* tube pre and then maybe a tube headphone amp. Do you have any other tube equipment? How efficient are your AR9's? I guess they'd be pretty efficient...

My AR9's are 93Db 1 Watt 1 Meter with 20 Watts out of each monoblock they
sound VERY good! Of course I can only drive the Mids and Tweeter with the
Monoblock Tubes, they don't put out the smoke to drive the vented 10" Sub
in each enclosure (Bi-Amp setup).

I messed around in the beginning with a Behringer Tube Ultra-Q which is a
Parametric EQ that can be dialed from wide band to narrow band and runs a
set of 12AX7's on the input stage and you could dial in how much they color
the sound. But nothing is like having the actual full blown tube amp from input
stage to output stage they just sound so smooooooth.... Liquid!

I will stick with solid state on the Pre and amplification for subs but when I
really want to relax the tubes really make my dual 5.25" Magnesium Alloy
Monocoque Mids and Diamond Hardened Titanium Tweeters melt my ears!

That's all for 2 channel though.. For HT I have a whole seperate set of
equipment in the same rack that also drives the AR9's and the rest of my
surround gear.

scottyf

'bliss,
You should check into a Melos SHA-Gold. Doubles as a preamp and headphone amp. Melos Audio Restoration will modify it if you feel the need (I did). Slap so nice NOS tubes in there and it sounds great! And it has a remote control!

I keep one as a back up. I picked it up for $700 and dropped another $350 in mods into it. Right now it's over at friends and he's trying to persuade me to sell it to him.

Red230SX

Scott,

Sweet 2Ch rig! Love the Counterpoint amps!

lolimeys

Some of us can boat anytime of the year. When the winter rains get to be too much here in the NW I dunk the boat in the Columbia and go for a blast.

Great boat - great system - great chick!

Red230SX

lolimeys wrote:

Some of us can boat anytime of the year. When the winter rains get to be too much here in the NW I dunk the boat in the Columbia and go for a blast.

Great boat - great system - great chick!

As long as there is no ice on the water I *could* take the boat out. It's a
closed cooling system so it's not a problem to take it out. It's just a pain in
the rear to have to purge the raw water side of the engine every time to
avoid any freeze damage.

Have any pictures of your boat on the net? Sounds like a sweet rig!

As for the chick.. That ain't mine.. that's one of the models Stingray uses
when they do thier boat photography.

Red230SX

I forgot to post that my Momo 10's came today! Woo Hoo Very nicely made drivers
if I do say so myself. I wish the cones were actual machined aluminum like the AV12
that I use in my HT is made of, but I am sure they are plenty strong.

I can't wait for weather good enough to finish my install. I am still waiting on the
Pioneer DEH9600MP Head Unit and Kicker 700.5 to ship and I need to figure out how
much 4Awg Power/Ground wire I need. I think I may go with 30' of each just to have
enough left over in case I run into any snags.

audiobliss

Man, you're gonna have a killer rig when you get it all put together!

Red230SX

audiobliss wrote:

Man, you're gonna have a killer rig when you get it all put together!

I'm thinkin it should "Rock Out" purty good! Or at least I hope it does

The DEH9600MP head unit is going to be sweet! It has the Auto-EQ feature
with the microphone and listens to the acoustics and auto calibrates the
response (that may come in handy in a boat!)

It's not a gimmicky looking head unit IMHO and the feature list is quite nice!

audiobliss

You got that right! My 860MP has almost all if not all of the features your 9600 has. They're quite impressive!

neomagus00

Red230SX wrote:

...the Auto-EQ feature
with the microphone and listens to the acoustics and auto calibrates the
response (that may come in handy in a boat!)

'handy'?? it'll be a freakin godsend! so much easier than starting from scratch...

Red230SX

neomagus00 wrote:

'handy'?? it'll be a freakin godsend! so much easier than starting from scratch...

Yeah handy is an understatement

Red230SX

Do you all think that running 20' of 4Awg Power and Ground wire will be an
issue? I can not tap into juice under the dash there is no wiring heavy enough
to run a 700.5 amp. The batteries are in the back of the boat, the amp is
going under the starboard side dash pannel. I have to run that much wire but
I hope it's not going to cause any noise issues having such a long ground.

Everything is going directly onto the battery and I am going to run an 80 Amp
Circuit Breaker at the battery plus a 1.5 Farad Cap.

I just wanted to get your opinions.

neomagus00

no, that long of a cable isn't an issue - that's about the length of power and ground i run from my trunk-mounted battery up to the under-hood electronics...

why the 80-amp breaker instead of a fuse?

Red230SX

neomagus00 wrote:

no, that long of a cable isn't an issue - that's about the length of power and ground i run from my trunk-mounted battery up to the under-hood electronics...

why the 80-amp breaker instead of a fuse?

I like the re-set nature of the breaker. Plus the place I ordered the cables
from thre in the re-set breaker for free. Is it an issue that they don't click out
as fast as a fast blow fuse will go?

I am glad to hear the length of wire run won't be an issue. With boats you do
not have a whole lot of options especially when it comes to grounding. From
what they tell me, fiberglass isn't a good grounding material...

PoweredByDodge

i'm not a fan of a 20 foot ground cable... here's why ... when you do "the math" to figure out how large your power wire needs to be (gauge) in order to carry all the current that a particular amplifier will need... we figure on it being one way flow... and that the ground will be relatively short (a foot, 2 feet, even 3 feet). you throw a 20 foot ground on there and you've made it a "40 foot run" instead of a "20 foot run" --- so you have to reconsider the size power wire you will need.

neomagus00

is that true? because you have said current going through the power cable of 20 ft, but an entirely separate current that happens to be equal going through the ground of 20 ft...

put another way, i'd think that, since the gauge rec's are based on voltage drop through a line, and that's why they cross-reference length and current with the gauge (to minimise voltage drop), the length of the ground wire is irrelevant when figuring this drop, and is therefore irrelevant when figuring the proper gauge...

PoweredByDodge

its a common misconception...

the amplifier - in its most basic form possible - should be seen as a resistor (something that uses power and has a voltage drop across it.

so - lets say you have wire going from the battery to a resistor (out amplifier) -- the wire has a resistance, something very small... but lets say for argument that its 1 ohm... now the resistor (amplifier) has a resistance, lets say 1 ohm. the ground wire is so short that we can consider it to have no resistance... so -- a 12 volt battery goes through a 1 ohm resistor, then another 1 ohm resistor - thatmeans that the 2nd resistor (the amplifier) gets half of those 12 volts... or 6 volts across it.

but if the ground wire is sufficiently long, we can no longer say it has "no resistrance" and since its the same length and gauge as the power wire, we'll say it has 1 ohm resistance as well... sonow we have 1 ohm + 1 ohm + 1 ohm... which means the amp is only seeing a third of the 12 volts --- or 4 volts across it.

the main thing here is to realize that all current comes from somewhere -- it doesn't just appear... so the current coming out of the amp is the same exact current as the one that went in. its the whole "conservation of current" thing... the stuff doesn't just appear out of the sky, or an amp...

you have to consider the entire round trip length of a wire when going to an amplifier or a resistor, or anything else... we just always consider ground to be " of infinitely short length" just because we usually over-estimate our wire needs anyways, just to be safe... so its all evens out in the end...

but when you start running a long one like this - you're going to have to consider it in.

the kicker is this -- resistance of the wire is based upon the current going through it -- if you're only putting 0.0000000001 amps through a 8 gauge line, then in effect it has zero resistance. throw 60 amps through it and all of a sudden its got a resistance, which grows larger as the length gets longer.

the key is to keep "resistor 1" and "resistor 3" (the power wire and the ground wire) to as low of a resistance as reasonably possible so that "resistor 2" (the amplifier) has almost all of the voltage of the battery dropping across it.

PoweredByDodge

allright - i looked up your amp... Kicker KX700.5

85 x 4 @ 2 ohms -- say 45 x 4 ohms = 180 wrms

400 x 1 @ 2 ohms mono

so that's 580 total - lets err on the side of caution considering it may be underrated ... call it 600 watts rms total for your configuration.

31% of that power is coming from a class AB section... 69% from a class D section.

I forget what I've been using for efficiency lately, but conservative estimate would be 65% for AB / 85% for D.

allright -- geez... here we go.

600 * 0.31 = 186, and 186 / 0.65 = 286 watts rms used to produce audio for "highs"

600 * 0.69 = 414, and 414 / 0.85 = 487 watts rms used to produce audio for "lows"

487 + 286 = 773 watts rms used to produce audio total.

now... what is kicker rated at? 14.4 or 13.8? Last I heard it was 13.8 - I don't know if they went with the new standard yet.

773 / 13.8 VDC = 56 amps (current).

so - you gotta run 56 amps through 20 feet + 20 feet of wire...

what's cool for 40 feet @ 56 amps ?

Well right now - if you use 4 gauge, you'll have a 1.3 volt drop.

Not the end of the world. But you'd be better off with 2 gauge -- that would only be a 0.8 volt drop.

So you're lookin at 13.1 volts (if you have an alternator putting out 14.4 V) with the 4 gauge or 13.6 if you use the 2 gauge.

and the 80 amp breaker... bad idea if all you're running off that line is the audio -- you should have a 60 amp fuse on there. 60's just a little higher than the 56 "absolute peak" current you'd be hitting. 80 is too far above that mark.

Red230SX

PBD,

Thanks for running the numbers bro!

I exaderated when I said 30' + 30' in reality I will probably need 12 to 15' for each run.
I really need to get up in the boat and do some snaking and measuring this weekend
before I buy the cable. I think I will be well within spec when I get the actual measurement.

As for the 60 amp breaker instead of 80, I appreciate that too! I don't want any
chance of a fire and I want that thing to be able to respond as soon as possible. With
the 80 it would take longer for it to snap out in a short situation I would assume.

I should have sat down and figured out the real world amp draw.

neomagus00

hmm... i see what you mean, pbd, but i'm still not quite convinced... can you calculate 'voltage drop' in a ground wire? isn't the 'ground' plug on an amp by definition held at 0V?

or is it a concern because the ground cable can create enough resistance to hold the input for the ground cable (on the amp) at +0.75V, for example?

Red230SX

Neo,

I see where you are comming from. I think if we were speaking of alternating current
what PBD is saying would ring true since both legs are technically voltage. With DC one
leg is voltage the other is a ground. I am not sure that the ground on a DC system
would impart any amount of resistance that would cause a voltage loss on that leg of
the system. This is a question I should pose to the EE I work with.. he's a fricken
genius!

PoweredByDodge

<-- is an EE

Red, both you and Neo are correct in thinking - sort of.

Neo - ground... REAL ground... is "0 volts" relative. If you have AC voltage with a DC offset, then "ground" may actually be 5 volts, or 10 volts, or whatever... but that's not the topic here... by DEFINITION, ground is "common voltage" --- that's a **** definition, but its the only one out there... by CONVENTION (habit) ground is held at "0 volts".

again though - that's REAL ground. the REAL ground is the negative side of a cell inside of a battery. not even the battery post, but the side of the cell itself! --- by the time you get to the battery post its "connected to ground", but its not "the actual ground itself". there is some resistance, infinitely small, between the terminal and the cell. the same goes for that ground cable that connects the negative terminal to the amp's negative terminal... it has a resistance. keep it short enough and you can "say" it has 0 resistance, even though that's not true. it never comes up as an issue until you start using long **** ground cables. When people put a spare battery in the trunk, they only worry about the positive cable... not the ground cable... the reason is that they ground it with a 1 foot piece of heavy cable to the chassis/sheetmetal in the trunk -- well there is a LOT of sheetmetal in a car! in fact, there's so much sheetmetal that if you scrunched it up and compacted it, you'd have a hunk of metal that was as electrically good as a quadruple 0 gauge line (just guessing, i have no idea what it actually would be, but its something disgustingly huge)... so with that thick of a "cable" (sheetmetal alltogether) you can "say" that it has no resistance. It just has infinitely small resistance.

If a ground cable is say only 1 foot long, and we're dealing with say 4 gauge wire and say 60 amps of current, then we can reasonably say that the resistance of the ground line is "virtually 0"... so we call it "0" for all the math.

This means that we will see a small voltage drop across the power line (say 15 to 20 feet - drop maybe 1 volt --- these are hypothetical numbers remember). the other 13.4 volts will drop across the amplifier's power supply board.

If you make the ground like another 15 to 20 feet, then you'll get a voltage drop across both power and ground lines because the resistance of 15 feet of wire (on ground) will be large enough to cause a drop.

It works the same for power... if you only had a 1 foot long power line from battery to amp, and 1 foot from ground to amp, then you could - in practicality say that you are actually getting 14.399999999 volts dropping across the amplifier.

having a 15 foot power and 15 foot ground is the same as having a 30 foot power and 1 inch ground.

As far as AC versus DC... its not a matter of "where voltage is" --- true voltage is only present at the battery (or alternator, but we'll keep it siimple and just say 'at the battery'). its that drop across the battery's terminals that enables us to power amps and lightbulbs and everything else on a boat or car. when items are placed in series (+ to +, then - to next +, and - to next + , etc etc) then you have fractional voltage drops. put a 2 ohm resistor in line with a 4 ohm resistor, and then another 2 ohm... you'll have 25% of the voltage drop across the first 2 ohm resistor... then 50% drop across the 4 ohm, then anotehr 25% drop across the second 2 ohm reistor... wires are resistors (to be very basic about it - they're variable resistors based on current load and such, but in a basic sense, they're resistors). Whether current is flowing in one direction (DC) or back and forth (AC) is irrelevant... (side note - 1 phase AC [home 110V power] and 12V DC are considered to have the same characteristics actually). So now take our amplifier -- that **** has a very high resistance compared to the resistance of the wire... I don't know exact numbers without doing calculations that I really have no desire to do, but basically you're looking at a 10 or 20 to 1 ratio... the amp has a resistance of (relatively) 10 to 20 times that of the 15-20 foot length of wire in question. so you'll get 20 + 1 = 21... voltage * (20 / 21) = voltage drop across the amp... voltage * (1 / 21) = voltage drop across wire ... or call it "votlage loss" if you want. if you've got a long ground line, you'll get the same drop across it as well so instead of your amp getting 20 / 21.. its' getting (20 / 22) times the voltage... or worse... if its only a 10 to 1 ratio, then its 10 / 12 instead of 10 / 11. While that doesn't seem like a big deal, it actually is when you consider that you're losing valuable output power for every volt you "lose" at the amp... and when you start getting voltage drops of 2 volts in a length of wire, you start having heat-risks... the last thing you need is melted wire jackets.

And I know I'm right because E-mag says so. bounce it off some people, they may explain it differently, but the end result will be the same. i'm a **** teacher.

Far as the 60A versus 80A --- if something catastrophic happened to your amplifier, and it was drawing over current... and your "max current drawn when at ultimate full power" was say 56 amps, then anything over say 65 may cause a fire on the amp's power supply board. Actually most amp fires occur on the output stage - hence the use of speaker fuses by some overly paranoid people. None the less, by the time you hit 80 A for that breaker to blow, you would surely have a totally cooked amp... if it kicks at 60, then you may have been able to save the amp from being totally dead -- basically keeping it in "repair-able" state.

Red230SX

PWD,

Thanks for making my head hurt! But it sure is appreciated. I sort of figured you were
an EE just from reading above. I am no EE but I can get by on simple stuff. It does
make sense!

I have to reiterate what I said above though, In reality I will likely wind up with a total
wire length of 12' for the positive and 12' for the negative which according to your
calculations on the first post will be okie dey..

I will do some measurements this weekend when the SNOW is gone!

I also decided to go with a 60 amp fuse block rather than a circuit breaker.

Thanks a shitload! or a Boatload.. Whichever suits you!

P.S. What Dodge do you have?

PoweredByDodge

WHAT Dodge do I have? all of them... hehehe...

My first truck was an 88 ram d150 hunk of ****. but i was in love with it - so recently i got another one that looks just like it and have been restoring it. its a work in progress.

old man has a 99 quad cab 1500 4x4...

around the time he got his, i picked up a 99 club cab (same as quad but back doors don't open) 2 wheel drive with a 360 -- sold that hell about 2 years ago and picked up an '03 1500 2wd with a 6 banger and a stick... its "weak" compared to the 360, but its a better daily driver i think. I just love having one of each body style sitting in the driveway...

at 24 feet total - i don't think you'll have an issue with 4 gauge. keep the lead battery terminals that you probably already have on the boat ... marine terminals are great because when lead corrodes it still conducts electricity - i use marine terminals in the trucks because of that... the gold / silver "high end audio" ones are horrible. since you're going to be in the water though, when you put your crimp ring terminals onto the ends of the power wires and even the speaker wires (crimp spades or whatever), get a tube of dielectric grease (or use spark plug grease - that **** that comes in the little packet for 99 cents at AutoZone - its the same as dielectric grease) in the terminal holes before you slide the bare wire in... it'll keep water from settling or condensing (condensating? -- i need to learn to spell) in there, and keep everything working in tip top shape for you for 20 or 30 years. Somebody asked me how long the stuff lasts before -- I was like "I dunno... but it'll last longer than your car will, so don't worry about it." Brake drum grease works too (i use it when i'm lazy) but the spark plug packets are really the way to go. it's the clear white-ish stuff, not the silver stuff... the silver and copper colored stuff is anti-seize thread treatment for spark plugs... the white or clear stuff is dielectric for spark plug boots (where the spark plug wire hits the spark plug connector) -- it may also be named as "plug wire silicone" or have some other funky name, but its all dielectric grease.

edit...

---

oh hey - another idea... i don't know how you do it - but most people i know with boats usually pull the negative or positive wire off the battery when they dock the boat for the night or whatever... well since you're goig to be having some more wires going back there, and you don't want to get mixed up as far as what goes where... Advance auto parts (www.partsamerica.com) has this little do-hickey... its a lead marine battery terminal with a golf ball sized plastic screw on it... you loosen up the plastic knob-screw thing by hand and you can yank the whole terminal of either the positive or negative side (whichever you choose - doesn't matter)... that way all your lines stay connected on the main batery terminal thing... it all comes off as one peice and then slips back on and you can tighten it by hand with the little black knob --- i got one for my old man's cadillac because i'd wanted to be able to trickle charge the battery in the winter without ganking all the wires and having "wire-y-ish confusion come spring"... sometime si leave it on, sometimes off, but its a nice little convenience thing for 4 bucks or whatever it was.

Summit has it here for like 11 bucks, here's a link - I'd send you a Advance link, but they dont have a picture on the website - once you see what it looks like I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about -- check it out...
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG1439&N=115+4294859645&autoview=sku

Red230SX

PoweredByDodge wrote:

WHAT Dodge do I have? all of them... hehehe...

My first truck was an 88 ram d150 hunk of ****. but i was in love with it - so recently i got another one that looks just like it and have been restoring it. its a work in progress.

old man has a 99 quad cab 1500 4x4...

around the time he got his, i picked up a 99 club cab (same as quad but back doors don't open) 2 wheel drive with a 360 -- sold that hell about 2 years ago and picked up an '03 1500 2wd with a 6 banger and a stick... its "weak" compared to the 360, but its a better daily driver i think. I just love having one of each body style sitting in the driveway...


Yep sounds like you have had your share of Dodges! I have had a "couple" as well. Right now I have an 01 Stratus ES 2.7L V6 loaded (probably one of the only Strat's out there with options like Side Impact Airbags, HomeLink Visor, etc..) I also have an 04 Hemi Ram, Rumblebee (#3249) I have some stuff done on that one. I can't help it I am a dodge man... I miss my 71 Pro Street Dodge Demon (ran 11.40's in street trim)

at 24 feet total - i don't think you'll have an issue with 4 gauge. keep the lead battery terminals that you probably already have on the boat ... marine terminals are great because when lead corrodes it still conducts electricity - i use marine terminals in the trucks because of that... the gold / silver "high end audio" ones are horrible. since you're going to be in the water though, when you put your crimp ring terminals onto the ends of the power wires and even the speaker wires (crimp spades or whatever), get a tube of dielectric grease (or use spark plug grease - that **** that comes in the little packet for 99 cents at AutoZone - its the same as dielectric grease) in the terminal holes before you slide the bare wire in... it'll keep water from settling or condensing (condensating? -- i need to learn to spell) in there, and keep everything working in tip top shape for you for 20 or 30 years. Somebody asked me how long the stuff lasts before -- I was like "I dunno... but it'll last longer than your car will, so don't worry about it." Brake drum grease works too (i use it when i'm lazy) but the spark plug packets are really the way to go. it's the clear white-ish stuff, not the silver stuff... the silver and copper colored stuff is anti-seize thread treatment for spark plugs... the white or clear stuff is dielectric for spark plug boots (where the spark plug wire hits the spark plug connector) -- it may also be named as "plug wire silicone" or have some other funky name, but its all dielectric grease.


Yep I am well familiar with Dialectic Grease, in fact I have a huge tube in the garage. I also owned a few Corvette's and it's a MUST to rub Dialectic Grease on Corvette weather strips or they die a horrid death, quickly! That's a very GOOD tip about the grease fortunatly for me the majority of my connections are inside sealed battery cases (which I have to install yet) I am not pissing around with this boat, I am doing it the way the manufacturer SHOULD HAVE! The battery boxes I have are sweet, they have built in circuit breakers for the external 12V Jacks, Low Charge Indicator LED's and all sheilded brass terminals.

edit...

---

oh hey - another idea... i don't know how you do it - but most people i know with boats usually pull the negative or positive wire off the battery when they dock the boat for the night or whatever... well since you're goig to be having some more wires going back there, and you don't want to get mixed up as far as what goes where... Advance auto parts (www.partsamerica.com) has this little do-hickey... its a lead marine battery terminal with a golf ball sized plastic screw on it... you loosen up the plastic knob-screw thing by hand and you can yank the whole terminal of either the positive or negative side (whichever you choose - doesn't matter)... that way all your lines stay connected on the main batery terminal thing... it all comes off as one peice and then slips back on and you can tighten it by hand with the little black knob --- i got one for my old man's cadillac because i'd wanted to be able to trickle charge the battery in the winter without ganking all the wires and having "wire-y-ish confusion come spring"... sometime si leave it on, sometimes off, but its a nice little convenience thing for 4 bucks or whatever it was.

Summit has it here for like 11 bucks, here's a link - I'd send you a Advance link, but they dont have a picture on the website - once you see what it looks like I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about -- check it out...
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG1439&N=115+4294859645&autoview=sku

I used to use those terminal cut off's on all my "old cars" (I never trust 30 year old car wiring) fortunatly for the boat it has a marine, waterproof "Make Before Break" battery switch so I can switch between Battery #1, Battery #2, Both, or "All" or "None" and it also has a key lock so I can lock off the power.

PoweredByDodge

now that sounds like a hell of a setup... "switches" are so much nicer than manually hooking and unhooking...

best thing for weatherstips - you're gonna think i'm nuts - 20 weight motor oil. don't get it on the windows or i'll smear like hell, but it soaks right into the rubber beautifully, as it bleeds out over the course of a year or so it'll keep it shiney too.

waterproof battery boxes would be great for a car as well... but its hard enough getting passenger side battery trays that fit (for a 2nd battery) let alone fitting a sealed box in there... room is getting more and more scarece in newer cars... i've got enough room for 2 dead bodies in the 88's engine compartment, yet i can barely squeeze my hands into the 03 to change the oil filter.

glad to hear you're a dodge man - our numbers are growing - *evil grin*

neomagus00

ah, i get the explanation now, thanks!

Red230SX

PoweredByDodge wrote:

now that sounds like a hell of a setup... "switches" are so much nicer than manually hooking and unhooking...

best thing for weatherstips - you're gonna think i'm nuts - 20 weight motor oil. don't get it on the windows or i'll smear like hell, but it soaks right into the rubber beautifully, as it bleeds out over the course of a year or so it'll keep it shiney too.

waterproof battery boxes would be great for a car as well... but its hard enough getting passenger side battery trays that fit (for a 2nd battery) let alone fitting a sealed box in there... room is getting more and more scarece in newer cars... i've got enough room for 2 dead bodies in the 88's engine compartment, yet i can barely squeeze my hands into the 03 to change the oil filter.

glad to hear you're a dodge man - our numbers are growing - *evil grin*

Yeah the switch makes it so easy to do the emergency power disconnect deal
just pop the sunpad and turn the knob, done! I like keeping stuff clean and I
am extremely anal about wiring jobs. I can't wait to see how nuts I go with
this install. I may order some techflex and jacket all my wiring

I hear ya about room under the hood of a vehicle.. Today's cars are like Origami!

But they do make hella horsepower and sip fuel compared to old cars... I loved
driving my C5 Vette in sixth on the highway looking at the trip computer and
seeing 30MPG... Gotta love technology!