Why own different amps when they all sound the same???WHAT ABOUT WIRE?

Josh-S

But isnt it the same debate over and over? While I'm up for learning new things nothings changed.

W WALDECKER

Josh-S wrote:

But isnt it the same debate over and over? While I'm up for learning new things nothings changed.

thats where the pay very close attention part comes in!

MacLeod

W WALDECKER wrote:

these debates are important and provoke thought and if you stick around and pay very close attention you may learn something. thanks....WCW III

Bingo!

This is a discussion forum and it wouldnt be much good if all we did was sit around and agree with each other.

This isnt a fight or anything, its an intellectual exchange within the arena of ideas and there is nothing wrong with it and if you dont care for this subject you dont have to participate. Some debates I dont care for so I stay out of them, others I do believe in, such as this, so I get involved.

LuSh

I'm going to roll the dice and say nobody has taken the challenge of Richard Clark because nobody has heard of him, except say a few people that think all amps sound the same, digital is digital, cable's and speakers are useless and generally think the world is out to get them. And if not the world, certainly the government.

What is most irritating to me, is that I've accepted my financial disposition and have come to terms with the fact I can't hear the best or know the best because the industry has 1. Been killed by Home Theatre 2. was destroyed by mid-fi products in the 1980's. It is however unfortnuate for some to realize this, and they get their back up against a wall if people ask questions about what they've used, as if its a personal attack on their wealth. It isn't. But to fully understand things, and have solid foundation it might help if these yahoos actually had admitted to testing higher end gear and still explained in detail how they didn't hear changes. Everytime I run into these "flat-earthers" in real life, I always ask..."have you at least listened" this is usually followed by a quick, "I dont have to, its science" response. I have never run into somebody that has tried higher end gear that hasn't admitted there was at least a difference. Nobody I know of that has heard a SimAudio, Classe, YBA, Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, Plinius has been able to look me in the eye and suggest there was NO DIFFERENCE. The people that dispute it, have heard of these companies but might have listened to a 2min demo, but hasn't spent any time, they've already written it off.

The same can be said for the cable crowd. People I talk to in real life say to me, cables are a waste of money...I tried some high end monster (entry level stuff even for monster) on my JVC and it made no difference. When I ask if they've tired better stuff, an interconnect in the $300-$500 range they look at me crazy. I also suggest trying it on a higher end amp. What sticks out is that $300-$500 in their head, they can't get their head around a cable that costs more then their entire receiver. They dig for information that supports their claim that cables make no difference before they go out and hear it for themselves, that's because it's easier then creating self doubt and openning up their wallets to something they really can't afford. They don't listen because they might hear a difference, and that would support the ownership of expensive stuff that has already killed a big chunk of their enjoyment.

It's a natural defense mechanism. If I don't listen it can't be better, if its not better I won't have to buy it. If I dont buy it I can refute claims via webpages. The world is out to get me and my hard earned money.

Audio has inflated like no other hobby, it sucks. If you only knew what I really wanted to get my hands on. An Elrod EPS-3 signiture power cable $2500 vs an Electraglide Ephiany reference $6000 hooked up to Tenor mono blocks and Kharma speakers. I can't do this, because I'm not wealthy enough. But I dont resent people that are, althought I use too. Instead I have fun reading and learning. Could I hear the difference between my Moray James powercord $700 vs a Elrod $2500? I don't think so, an online buddy thinks so because the differences were striking in his system. He also uses an $18,000 Tube amp from Zanden, and a $30,000 analogue setup from SpJ. At one point he was using $6000 interconnects from Siltech. He isn't just rich and stupid. He has enough dough to really get his hands dirty yet still values great bang for the buck, he currently owns $300 interconnects and was using a $2.5 preamp...he just continues to tweak and toy and have fun, all while enjoying what brought him here in the first place...his music. Remeber MOST of the people that have this kinda money invested in there equipment also have at least or two times as much invested in software. These aren't yuppies that spend because its "Highend" they go through what we go through just at a much higher price point.

So for the non cable believers, its ok...but at least give it a shot. Don't hate, just participate.

MacLeod

Plenty of people have taken the challenge, just that nobody has ever won it. Its been around over a decade.

ND13

Beautifully written , Lush.

dorokusai

MacLeod wrote:

Plenty of people have taken the challenge, just that nobody has ever won it.

Please feel free to name the people and manufacturers.

It's a chump bet with no merit, as in nothing useful aside from a power check.

mantis

Lush,
that was one of the best ways to describe the entire thing. It's basically dead on.

I 2 feel that most people get offended and think they can't afford it so they feel the need to bash it. I can't afford exactly what i would like to have but don't bash it cause I can't have it.

this thead was started for this exact same reason. I wanted to bring out everyones opnion on this matter. Due to the fact I started this , I got bashed. O well. At least it's going in a different direction. A good one at that,

Dan

heiney9

MacLeod wrote:

Its not a single guess. To eliminate the element of chance you have to get 12 out of 12 correct.

The way he does it is you take 2 amps, you pick the amps, they are level matched to within .05 db and thats it. You control everything. The switching between the 2, the track selection, everything. Say youre using a Crossfire and a Kicker amp. You pick the amp youre going to identify, say the Kicker. Now you listen to whatever music you choose for however long you chose and can switch back and forth as many times as you like and take as long as you like. Then you pick the one you think is the Kicker. Thats 1 round. Then, either the amps are reversed or theyre not and you go again. You get 12 out of 12 and you win $10,000.

The reason it calls for 12 out of 12 is that just by flipping a coin youll likely get 6 out of 12. Plus, if there are such obvious differences you should be able to pick correctly 12 out of 12 times all day. RC's has even lowered it to 10 out of 12 on a few occasions and still NOBODY has ever one it.

There is nothing wrong with his conditions or the test itself. It favors the testee in every way other than he cant see which amp is which. The testee controls the volume, the switching, the music choice, the track control, he can take as much time as he likes, he can listen to the same 10 second piece of music looped over and over if he likes.

The only rules are: 1)they have to be level matched (it would be pretty easy to pick out the 500 watt amp from the 100 watt amp. 2) You cant see which amp is which (otherwise it wouldnt be a double blind test. 3) All EQ's and processors have to be bypassed (because we're not comparing EQ's, we're comparing amps).

There is no trick.

Blah, Blah, Blah...with respect of course. I've seen pics of you MacLeod, you could squish me like an ant.

The only thing that matters to me is MY SYSTEM. I'm familiar with it and it's characteristics (it's my base-line). I can tell a difference in every component and most cables I swap in/out (some cables sound very similiar). Don't ask me to listen to an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar environment and expect to pick up on the subtle differences. It can't be done, that's why his challenge is a bit flawed, IMO. There HAS to be a base line or the experiment is flawed.

H9

P.s. I'm done with this discussion as this is the 7th time I've participated in this type of thread. My POV is not going to change and I suspect that unless MacLeod has an ephiphany his isn't going to change either.

dorokusai

It's a worthless challenge. I've read this idea to death in other forums over the years, do we need to add this one to the list?

madmax

MacLeod wrote:

So we're back to the "you have to have a $5000 amp with $2000 cables otherwise you wont hear a difference and even then its very subtle" argument? If thats the case Ill keep my $200 amp!

One thing to keep in mind is that until you experience better stuff for yourself you will not understand. I've had $200 amps. I've also had $2500 amps and have heard $8K amps. There is significant difference. Probably a power difference maybe? No. Definite quality differences.

If you will, let me share some differences as I've heard them. A lesser quality amp gives you decent dynamics which is about all you listen for at that level. They overshadow much of the detail. As you move up you start noticing new sounds. At this point you think you have it all. A few moves up and you start hearing the "tones" of the different instruments. Instead of hearing a guitar you are hearing a strat through a fender. Still moving on up you start noticing the strat in the one song has better pickups than the strat that was played in the other song. Also, space between instruments has become apparent. In the next upward move you could swear you are listening to the real thing but your mind really knows better. You are convinced it sounds real but in reality if it were a life and death situation you could easily state whether you were listening to a stereo or a real sound. THIS is where the cables really come into play. The small differences between a stereo and real becomes a huge difference in perception. Getting rid of even a very small clue of "stereo" sound weights very highly in enjoyment.

Then again, a $200 amp sounds pretty good.


Another way to look at it. I have a fast car. 420 hp, will do 12.3 with drag slicks. I know what power and speed is. Then again, my friend used to drive a 10 second car. He knows as I do that I don't really have a clue yet, only a common sense knowledge of what I think a 10 second car would be like.

madmax

W WALDECKER

madmax wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that until you experience better stuff for yourself you will not understand. I've had $200 amps. I've also had $2500 amps and have heard $8K amps. There is significant difference. Probably a power difference maybe? No. Definite quality differences.

If you will, let me share some differences as I've heard them. A lesser quality amp gives you decent dynamics which is about all you listen for at that level. They overshadow much of the detail. As you move up you start noticing new sounds. At this point you think you have it all. A few moves up and you start hearing the "tones" of the different instruments. Instead of hearing a guitar you are hearing a strat through a fender. Still moving on up you start noticing the strat in the one song has better pickups than the strat that was played in the other song. Also, space between instruments has become apparent. In the next upward move you could swear you are listening to the real thing but your mind really knows better. You are convinced it sounds real but in reality if it were a life and death situation you could easily state whether you were listening to a stereo or a real sound. THIS is where the cables really come into play. The small differences between a stereo and real becomes a huge difference in perception. Getting rid of even a very small clue of "stereo" sound weights very highly in enjoyment.

Then again, a $200 amp sounds pretty good.


Another way to look at it. I have a fast car. 420 hp, will do 12.3 with drag slicks. I know what power and speed is. Then again, my friend used to drive a 10 second car. He knows as I do that I don't really have a clue yet, only a common sense knowledge of what I think a 10 second car would be like.

madmax

Yeah madmax,i agree totally with your analogy,i feel that the higher the resolution goes in a system the more you can tell the differences in cables and components.thanks....WCW III

SCompRacer

I can relate to the race car anology. I've gone 7.29 @ 196 down the quarter and launched at 2.5G's. I don't get as excited driving a slower car.

Audio wise, after several amps, speaker cables and interconnects, I recently find myself very pleased with my system and don't want to change anything. However, I can't index or qualify it until I hear other systems that sound better, or do not. It's all relative, and until you do experience something, how can you speak about it in absolutes and with conviction?

PolkThug

LuSh wrote:

So for the non cable believers, its ok...but at least give it a shot. Don't hate, just participate.

Good words of wisdom for the believers too.

mantis

madmax,
see I'm not crazy, I just have a funny way of bringing out a good dicussion. Awesome post bro.

Funny you use the car 1/4 thing. I owned a Buick Grand National which I was able to get into the 11.68 @ 117.9 MILES per hr.

But back to the amp thing, yes I know it makes a huge difference.As far as I'm concerned anytime anything can be unlocked in what I'm listening to is huge. I guess it's why I'm so into wire. I love hearing the difference. the little things mean so much.

Back to the car, it's not about the larger turbo I installed to get into the 11's it was about the fuel pump, the Injectors , Boost pressure mods , trans shift kit , custom programmed chip for my car, cold air induction package, upgraded intercooler,M&H racemaster tires, etc made me go that fast....

Dan

TroyD

yawn......

Dennis Gardner

TroyD wrote:

yawn......

Be careful there BDT, you might be called a senior "member".

MacLeod

heiney9 wrote:

Don't ask me to listen to an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar environment and expect to pick up on the subtle differences. It can't be done, that's why his challenge is a bit flawed, IMO. There HAS to be a base line or the experiment is flawed.

You can bring your own amps and listen to any music you chose.

gidrah

MacLeod - Pardon me for asking this, but is your view based on car audio or home audio or both?

PolkThug

mantis wrote:

Funny you use the car 1/4 thing. I owned a Buick Grand National which I was able to get into the 11.68 @ 117.9 MILES per hr.
... Back to the car, it's not about the larger turbo I installed to get into the 11's it was about the fuel pump, the Injectors , Boost pressure mods , trans shift kit , custom programmed chip for my car, cold air induction package, upgraded intercooler,M&H racemaster tires, etc made me go that fast....

Dan

sweet! Got any other cars in the works, or have you given up life in the fast lane?

PolkThug

gidrah wrote:

MacLeod - Pardon me for asking this, but is your view based on car audio or home audio or both?

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18590&highlight=Richard+Clark

gidrah

This must be why he deposed the concept of cables effecting soundstage and imaging. No matter how much money I put into my truck system, I will still have no semblence of imaging or soundstage and thus cannot base any further debate upon the lack of. I have invested many thousands of dollars and hours into my home stereo in order to achieve the experience that is best for me. The radio in my truck modulates either frequency or amplitude. I'm happy with my priorities.

madmax

Oh, car amps... I guess I agree then.
madmax

MacLeod

Let me see if Ive got this straight:

There are no differences in cheaper home amps amps and cables and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables. In order to get the warmer bass and deeper soundstage you have to have $2000 home audio amps and $100/ft cables. Right?

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass. Hell Cody (exalted512) swears by the tonal differences in some amps. But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?

Josh-S

MacLeod wrote:

and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables.

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass.

But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?

Theres a MAJOR diferance in car amps. That is one thing I can coment on. Theres a massive harmonic change when going from one amp to another. most of which is due to the quality of the comps. I have been threw over 2 dozen amps in my times with my cars system (hence where all my money went) If car amps have any silmularities to Home Theater amps then they should vary greatly!

heiney9

MacLeod wrote:

Let me see if Ive got this straight:

There are no differences in cheaper home amps amps and cables and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables. In order to get the warmer bass and deeper soundstage you have to have $2000 home audio amps and $100/ft cables. Right?

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass. Hell Cody (exalted512) swears by the tonal differences in some amps. But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?

No....you don't have it straight. There are differences in all classes of electronics. To realize some of the more subtle differences YES, you may need a higer resolution system to discern the differences. For me anyways I NEVER said or agreed that you have to spend high $$$ to get soemthing to sound different. Hell, my friend who is not into audio at all like most here replaced his Kenwood AVR with a Denon 3804 a few years ago and heard an immediate difference in sound, and he's using Cerwin Vega speakers which aren't know for their tonal accuracy. Could he hear a diff between a $100 cable and a $500 cable, probably not on his current system.

I've been so far removed from the car audio thing I can't comment other than to say in my days of selling; Alpine and Rockford Fosgate were the best for a long time. And yes, I can/have heard diff in car audio amps.

H9

madmax

MacLeod wrote:

Let me see if Ive got this straight:

There are no differences in cheaper home amps amps and cables and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables. In order to get the warmer bass and deeper soundstage you have to have $2000 home audio amps and $100/ft cables. Right?

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass. Hell Cody (exalted512) swears by the tonal differences in some amps. But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?

Well, if you want to argue for the other side (those who do hear the differences) then I guess there is no longer a debate?

madmax

OOPS,
Sorry, I didn't read close enough. $100/ft cables certainly don't cut it...

Actually, there is a company here in Germantown MD that makes car tube amplifiers. Not just a 12ax7 or two thrown in for looks but honest to God tube amplifiers. I'd be willing to bet you could get a good soundstage and all if you picked the right vehicle with the right speakers. A had a decent soundstage in my last truck with the really old polk Mobile Monitor series speakers.
madmax

jdhdiggs

The problem with RC's test is that he states, you need to pick out XYZ amp from each test rather than a test of "This is amp A, now is the next amp the same or different than amp A". The first, even if you here a difference, it is a crap shoot to guess which one is which. In the second, you can tell a difference and that's the question being asked. (As opposed to "Which one is this?")

I have done both in my house with my own equipment with cables and amps. I never passed his style of test, but the other I can pass >95% of the time with amps. As far as cables go, as long as they are properly built, I have never heard any difference or passed any blind tests. Sorry...

MacLeod

This Tru is the best tube amp on the car audio market. Damn good looking amps too. Run ya about $2500. Tru makes about the best amps in car audio and some of them are the best looking on the market

But the best looking amp of all time is the Human Reign from Soundstream. How would ya like to have these on your rack?



Yup, that is an actual, functioning amp. They have a 450x2 stereo amp or a 125x4 4-channel model...itll also set ya back a cool $3700!!

If I had $7400 just lying around, and a need for 2000+ watts, I would definitely have a pair of these in my truck!