Why own different amps when they all sound the same???WHAT ABOUT WIRE?

beardog03

hey I saw Thugy over there..!!

you go brother...I`m with ya..!!



say what ya want, but my MIT S1`s make a huge difference over my AQ King Cobra`s...
and my AQ type 4 speaker cable is more focused than my Monster XP...

but I`m kinda freakish too..!!

Dennis Gardner

TroyD wrote:

Who gives a rats **** about the avs forums and what does it have to do with trying to start a pissing contest here?

I really think Dan's lost it.

BDBania

From the AVS thread, post #254:

"I'm in the Wire makes alot of difference camp."

mantis

ND13

Mantis seems to either be trying to just stir the pot by being sarcastic or he's being a hipocrite and changing his views on cable all together. I do remember him being a proponent of good cables and wires and not that long ago, either.

W WALDECKER

ND13 wrote:

I just like to "CLAIM" I can hear a difference so I can fit in with the rest of you fellas :rolleyes:

Oh and I like to waste my hard earned cash on frivolous purchases, too.

now i dont feel so all alone in the pathetic little audio HELL that i have created for myself!

faster100

well when ya can get cables/gear at cost its easy to try alot of different high dollar cables.

mantis

faster100 wrote:

well when ya can get cables/gear at cost its easy to try alot of different high dollar cables.

I never said anything about where or how I get my cables. Actually I never will.

Over the years I have been trying alot of different kinds of wire. With Audioquest coming in a few weeks, I've been seriously trying to learn about what they do. The DBS system is the strangest thing so far. Transparent and MIT use the network bricks but batteries??? Ok I'll try to except it. From what I have heard from other who actually listened said it makes a difference for the better. It clears up the sound like you moved up in cable grade. Ok I have not experienced this myself yet but I was puzzled on this. I have read all about it and DBS well makes sense on paper. I'm not sold on it but ok it is what it is. Are cable companies out of Ideas on how to make a good quality conductor? Have I been going around and round in circles testing wire when in the end it doesn't makes enough differnce to justify the cost? Man You can spend alot of money on cables. I know I have over the years.

I'm really intrested in trying out some Audioquest.

This thead may have come across completely wrong. It's my fault as I haven't been in the greatest of moods. My bad allday.

The amp thing just set me off when I read about how all amps sound the same. Sometimes I wonder . Sometimes it's black and white. I really don't think things sound the same at all. Actually I always find something different in most products. I have however found things sounding close but not the same.
I also thing the point about amps is wrong. If 2 amps are equal in many way, ok I can see at certain times they could sound almost the same, but no one listens at the same volume all the time with the same type of dynamics. 2 many factors during the listening.

Dan

mantis

O I forgot to mention Audioquest believes in the sold core thing as well.

Dan

MacLeod

mantis wrote:

The amp thing just set me off when I read about how all amps sound the same. Sometimes I wonder . Sometimes it's black and white. I really don't think things sound the same at all. Actually I always find something different in most products. I have however found things sounding close but not the same.
I also thing the point about amps is wrong. If 2 amps are equal in many way, ok I can see at certain times they could sound almost the same, but no one listens at the same volume all the time with the same type of dynamics. 2 many factors during the listening.

Dan

Dan, I love ya man but you dont seem to get me. Nobody has ever said that all amps sound the same. Only that if compared equally the differences will be inaudible.

The reason this debate started was not to prove that a $200 amp is just as good as a $2000 amp but rather to refute the claims that some amps have "warmer highs and tigher midbass but have a more narrow stage" while others are "brigher with thinner highs but have a deep stage with precise imaging". These are the characteristics amps dont have and all the ABX testing was designed, and has, proven just that. Amps are supposed to be transparant and if you look at their frequency response its ruler flat at 0 db.

ND13

MacLeod wrote:

The reason this debate started was not to prove that a $200 amp is just as good as a $2000 amp but rather to refute the claims that some amps have "warmer highs and tigher midbass but have a more narrow stage" while others are "brigher with thinner highs but have a deep stage with precise imaging". These are the characteristics amps dont have and all the ABX testing was designed, and has, proven just that. Amps are supposed to be transparant and if you look at their frequency response its ruler flat at 0 db.

Those characteristics are preamp characteristics.

amulford

But Grasshopper, if the wire walks the path of enlightenment, should not the amp light the way???

MacLeod

ND13 wrote:

Those characteristics are preamp characteristics.

So its not longer the amps that are warmer or tighter or broader than others, its now the pre-amps?

I cant keep up with you guys.

ND13

Well Mac, you need to come on up to Indy and I'll prove it to you with three differerent pres. They all have different soundstaging, imaging, depth, and tonal signatures. Have you ever owned anything besides a receiver? And I never said those characteristics were from my amps. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

MacLeod

Nah, I cant keep up.

So what happens if you take an amp with warm midbass and clean midrange running from a preamp with bright and thin highs hooked together with cables with a wide soundstage and smooth highs but poor imaging, running off of a source unit with a deep but narrow stage with deep bass, running thru speaker wires with thin bass but clean and smooth highs? Oh and dont forget the power cable running to the wall socket, Im sure that can brighten up the treble if you need it to. But it wouldnt matter becaue it would all change as soon as the tubes burn in.

Boy, am I making friends or what?!

heiney9

MacLeod wrote:

Nah, I cant keep up.

So what happens if you take an amp with warm midbass and clean midrange running from a preamp with bright and thin highs hooked together with cables with a wide soundstage and smooth highs but poor imaging, running off of a source unit with a deep but narrow stage with deep bass, running thru speaker wires with thin bass but clean and smooth highs? Oh and dont forget the power cable running to the wall socket, Im sure that can brighten up the treble if you need it to. But it wouldnt matter becaue it would all change as soon as the tubes burn in.

Boy, am I making friends or what?!

In audio as well as many other things it's about SYNERGY. So yes your senario is plausible and changing out/switching combinations of amps/pre/cd player/DAC's/source material/speakers/cables/power conditioners will alter the sound (each and every seperate piece). Some pieces will work very well together, others won't. And all pieces have to work well together to get WHATEVER DESIRED sound YOU are looking for. If you haven't experimented with these things in different combo's then you really can't speak about it other than to make an educated guess (which BTW is incorrect).

H9

P.s. The only amps that sound exactly the same are a two amps of the same kind.

W WALDECKER

ND13 wrote:

Those characteristics are preamp characteristics.

amplifiers have thier own sonic signatures as well, and in my own experience can make as large an impact on the overall sound as a preamplifier does.thanks....WCW III

ND13

MacLeod wrote:

The reason this debate started was not to prove that a $200 amp is just as good as a $2000 amp but rather to refute the claims that some amps have "warmer highs and tigher midbass but have a more narrow stage" while others are "brigher with thinner highs but have a deep stage with precise imaging". These are the characteristics amps dont have and all the ABX testing was designed, and has, proven just that. Amps are supposed to be transparant and if you look at their frequency response its ruler flat at 0 db.

William, I was adressing the soundstage and imaging aspects of this quote, not the sonic signature. My amps do have their own sonic signatures, though subtle, but I haven't been able to tell the difference between imaging and soundstage of the three. I can however state, beyond a doubt, that my pres have differences in those characteristics and it's quite obvious.

What I'm about to post is not intended by any means to be degrading, so please don't blow it out of proportion, because I'm far from an audio snob.

When I was using a receiver, I was in the other camp as well. It DOES take a higher resolution system to notice the differences in components, wires, cables and such. Unless your talking about multi-thousand dollar receivers, I doubt very seriously that you're going to hear the differences, whether subtle or dramatic. I know that I couldn't when I was running a receiver. But I started noticing the dramatic differences as I started upgrading and with the gear I'm currently using the subtle differences are becoming more and more apparent as well. Sometimes I wish I couldn't hear the differences, because I would have more money in my wallet, for sure. Then I kick back and get my listen on and think that I'm almost in audio nirvana and when I really look at the total amount that I have in my main rig, I laugh, because I only have about a third of what the stuff retailed for, when new, in it and for the most part, one wouldn't be able to distinguish them from new anyways

MacLeod

So we're back to the "you have to have a $5000 amp with $2000 cables otherwise you wont hear a difference and even then its very subtle" argument? If thats the case Ill keep my $200 amp!

End the end it all falls back to Richard Clark and his little $10,000 amp challenge. All you have to do is email him and set up the test. You can even bring your own amps to test and if you can choose correctly you win $10,000. If there are such obvious differences between amps then why has nobody EVER won this challenge in the 15+ years its been going?

beardog03

to me my Parasound amp sound "warmer" than my Rotels..

I don`t care what it looks like on paper, or what someone else say`s..

I can hear a difference..

That`s my story , and I`m stickin to it.. :cool:

I also hear a big difference between my MIT I/C`s , and my AQ King Cobra`s..

BIG difference..

Just like tubes..
You can get a matched pair to sound, and perform as close to each other as possible..

but tubes, even from the same factory, in the same batch, all have a slightly different sound..

nothing is built completely identical to another...there are slight, and subtle differences

IMHO ...of course

but I`m also a sick freak, so pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...carry on gents..

McLoki

MacLeod wrote:

End the end it all falls back to Richard Clark and his little $10,000 amp challenge. All you have to do is email him and set up the test. You can even bring your own amps to test and if you can choose correctly you win $10,000. If there are such obvious differences between amps then why has nobody EVER won this challenge in the 15+ years its been going?

I said I wouldn't get back in this debate so I just want to point out this odd "makes you go hmmmmm?" type question.

For 10 grand you would think someone would have taken the test and just guessed right. Even if you are comparing between 4 amps you have a 25% chance of winning 10 grand with no money put up on your part.

Why has no one won this? is it real? For 10 grand even if they sounded identical you would think that someone would be able to guess correctly eventually let alone in 15 years. I mean people win the lottery every day with astronomical odds against them.

Was just curious - whether amps sound the same or not, just wondering about the contest...

Michael

dorokusai

MacLeod wrote:

So we're back to the "you have to have a $5000 amp with $2000 cables otherwise you wont hear a difference and even then its very subtle" argument? If thats the case Ill keep my $200 amp!

End the end it all falls back to Richard Clark and his little $10,000 amp challenge. All you have to do is email him and set up the test. You can even bring your own amps to test and if you can choose correctly you win $10,000. If there are such obvious differences between amps then why has nobody EVER won this challenge in the 15+ years its been going?

If you read his terms and conditions, you'll see why....it's a worthless challenge.

mantis

Basically it really comes down to if you can hear a difference , thats really all that matters. We can sit here and debate both sides and never come to verdict. This guy Richard Clark has laid down a challenge but no one can prove him wrong. With his standards , who really knows. I have heard plenty of differences changing out amps and thats not made up. As alot of you , you guys also heard differences when using different amps. Turn up the volume and hear even more differnces.

Use speakers that are a challenge to drive, and hear more differences.

But on a lighter note, we got in Audioquest. So the Quest begins.

Dan

beardog03

let us know what you think about the battery powered ones..

I have been curious about those for a long time now..

ND13

Sorry but I don't have anything close to a $5000 amp or $2000 cables :rolleyes: . I just have some decent gear. I do have a $2800 preamp, but again I paid nowhere near that for it. Hell for that matter, I don't think I have $5000 in my rig, total. I did buy the majority of it used, though.

sickicw

Well looking at it from a technical and business point of view and it is easy to see why some amps are created differently, can perform differently, and sound differently. All you have to do is compare the amp classes, and specs of each amp (might be better to do actually testing than take the manufactured word for it), the technology used (lots of which is patented) and then figure in supply and demand on how they sound in different systems, and then….well there you have it. Also think about the fact that it takes quite a bit more resources to make amp 1:

200 watts at 8 ohms, 400 watts at 4 ohms, 800 watts at 2 ohms, 1600 watts at 1 ohm and 50 % efficient

Than amp 2:

200 watts at 8 ohms, 300 watts at 4 ohms, unstable under 4 ohms and 25 % efficient.

anyhoo, that just some of my thoughts on the subject.

mantis

I unboxed a pair of Type 4's today and I just wanted to take em home and try em out. There basically bottom of the line for premade wires but there built quality is excellent. I like the feel of solid core wire. Even there Bananas are nice. I like it.

I'm looking to listen to the DBS cables as well. I will report all my findings good or bad. It's cool watching them go up on the wall.

Dan

Josh-S

What is all this crap? bla bla this.. bla bla that.. Hey, I shaved my pubes! Nice and smoth...

W WALDECKER

Josh-S wrote:

What is all this crap? bla bla this.. bla bla that.. Hey, I shaved my pubes! Nice and smoth...

? :rolleyes:

Josh-S

Just adding to "the crap" pile

Edit: Oh, I see the second page here actualy has some usefull posts Never the less these debates never lead anywhere. I bought a nice set of Dyton premade wires for my setup. Why? Because they look good! They are heavy, and they will survive a vacume atack! No tto mention they are O2 free and sheilded. So, I'm shure I'll notice a diferance over time.

MacLeod

McLoki wrote:

I said I wouldn't get back in this debate so I just want to point out this odd "makes you go hmmmmm?" type question.

For 10 grand you would think someone would have taken the test and just guessed right. Even if you are comparing between 4 amps you have a 25% chance of winning 10 grand with no money put up on your part.

Why has no one won this? is it real? For 10 grand even if they sounded identical you would think that someone would be able to guess correctly eventually let alone in 15 years. I mean people win the lottery every day with astronomical odds against them.

Was just curious - whether amps sound the same or not, just wondering about the contest...

Michael

Its not a single guess. To eliminate the element of chance you have to get 12 out of 12 correct.

The way he does it is you take 2 amps, you pick the amps, they are level matched to within .05 db and thats it. You control everything. The switching between the 2, the track selection, everything. Say youre using a Crossfire and a Kicker amp. You pick the amp youre going to identify, say the Kicker. Now you listen to whatever music you choose for however long you chose and can switch back and forth as many times as you like and take as long as you like. Then you pick the one you think is the Kicker. Thats 1 round. Then, either the amps are reversed or theyre not and you go again. You get 12 out of 12 and you win $10,000.

The reason it calls for 12 out of 12 is that just by flipping a coin youll likely get 6 out of 12. Plus, if there are such obvious differences you should be able to pick correctly 12 out of 12 times all day. RC's has even lowered it to 10 out of 12 on a few occasions and still NOBODY has ever one it.

There is nothing wrong with his conditions or the test itself. It favors the testee in every way other than he cant see which amp is which. The testee controls the volume, the switching, the music choice, the track control, he can take as much time as he likes, he can listen to the same 10 second piece of music looped over and over if he likes.

The only rules are: 1)they have to be level matched (it would be pretty easy to pick out the 500 watt amp from the 100 watt amp. 2) You cant see which amp is which (otherwise it wouldnt be a double blind test. 3) All EQ's and processors have to be bypassed (because we're not comparing EQ's, we're comparing amps).

There is no trick.

W WALDECKER

Josh-S wrote:

Just adding to "the crap" pile

Edit: Oh, I see the second page here actualy has some usefull posts Never the less these debates never lead anywhere. I bought a nice set of Dyton premade wires for my setup. Why? Because they look good! They are heavy, and they will survive a vacume atack! No tto mention they are O2 free and sheilded. So, I'm shure I'll notice a diferance over time.

these debates are important and provoke thought and if you stick around and pay very close attention you may learn something. thanks....WCW III