Okay, a completely new discovery for me - Music Server - Questions...

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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    Tom, I think you mis-took my statement about usb. I'll elaborate offline
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    OOOooops. If I did, my apologies. I gotta go for now, as I have a date with the pillow at the moment. Thanks again for your input.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • daddyjt
    daddyjt Posts: 2,290
    ^^^ That’s F-ing hilarious…!
    "Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow


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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 880
    edited November 2023
    @treitz3 I want to chime back in, but this time constructively and politely.

    Tom, have you considered ditching ethernet all together? If you're trying to avoid EMF, latency, timing issues, and even speed constraints, you should heavily consider fiber.

    Fiber doesn't need shielding or anything, EMF won't affect the signal, it doesn't carry any noise at all, it travels at the speed of light for no latency, and the timing is always consistent.

    Seeming as you're chasing the purest signal, it wouldn't really get much better than this. You might need a fiber-ethernet converter at each end of the line but high end ones are shielded very well and won't introduce nearly as many anomalies as if you used a traditional ethernet setup.

    Something to consider, remember fiber is light pulses and so avoiding any noise also means nearly zero error correction is done, freeing up processing for better timings and latency.

    Even just local communication is heavily improved. When I was at my old private school we switched to fiber between devices and transfers between the workstations went from about 500 megabits per second to 10 gigabit per second (we had 10 gig networking but the cables were not up for the task) and the 500 megabit was average, sometimes it spiked up or dipped down but the fiber was steady the entire time.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    Fiber isn't offered in my area *yet*. Also, the rigs that use optical connections (at least those that I have heard to date), didn't exactly sound that good.

    In other words, I'm not the biggest fan of optical. Now with that said, I am always open to the idea and maybe one day I'll give it a whirl. Thanks.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 880
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Fiber isn't offered in my area *yet*. Also, the rigs that use optical connections (at least those that I have heard to date), didn't exactly sound that good.

    In other words, I'm not the biggest fan of optical. Now with that said, I am always open to the idea and maybe one day I'll give it a whirl. Thanks.

    Tom

    Sorry I worded poorly, I'm talking about from your router to your devices.

    You can buy 50 meters of full duplex fiber optic cabling for $40 Canadian, two full duplex SFP converters for $60 Canadian, and then two media converters for $80 Canadian. (SFP and Media by TP-Link) With 1 gigabit speeds.

    You could convert your router's ethernet into fiber, run it to your device, and then convert it back and have an extremely short (like 1 foot) run of your audiophile ethernet cable of choice, maybe even throw in your filters to see how it sounds.

    The end result would be minimal transmission noise compared to just running a long ethernet cable. You'd also reap the benefits of plastic fiber cabling being super cheap and not needing to worry about material differences like plastic vs glass!

    Personally I'm looking into it for my house (replacing wall ethernet with wall fiber, it's cheaper to do fiber lol) and I highly recommend it.
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 298
    Personally, I'd just do whatever DarqueKnight does. :D
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,396
    edited November 2023
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Tom, have you considered ditching ethernet all together? If you're trying to avoid EMF, latency, timing issues, and even speed constraints, you should heavily consider fiber.

    Fiber doesn't need shielding or anything, EMF won't affect the signal, it doesn't carry any noise at all, it travels at the speed of light for no latency, and the timing is always consistent.

    Haven't you ever heard of dirty light? Optical is terrible filthy dirty. No true audiophile uses optical.

    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    I'm talking about from your router to your devices.

    This is actually what I was referring too as well. I have heard fiber optic leading up to a house before. While it was a rig I wasn't intimately familiar with, I was still familiar with it. It had also had some changes done to it besides optical to the house, so too many variables to make an educated observation with complete certainty.

    I will say, I did not hear what I heard (that I wasn't to enthralled about) in other systems that used optical within the rig. I can't say that I could put my finger on exactly what I heard.....but I did know that I didn't like it. Something sounded, shall we say, "artificial". Perhaps a little metallic. That would be the best way I could describe it. I couldn't ever see myself tapping my toes to what I heard on those systems.

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    I think Tom's network setup is sufficient.
    Now, is he going to build a server or not? Or at least try playing some files on a USB? :D
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    Agreed on that. Thread drift is strong on this one.

    With family now. That's more important to me than my hobbies. My family ROCKS!!!

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • jbreezy5
    jbreezy5 Posts: 1,141
    edited November 2023
    billbillw wrote: »
    So are we talking about setting up a server or reducing the noise at the end of the line before the streamer?

    Regarding FLAC vs WAV, there is no loss in converting. You can go from one back to the other and always have the same audio file, which can be verified using complex analysis tools.

    It may be true that some under powered streamers play back a WAV file better because their processor has more breathing room, but my Daphile box has plenty of CPU overhead. I've never been able to hear a difference and my system is pretty resolving.

    FLAC is much better at holding song/album Metadata as well.

    Either way, you can't make a wrong decision because something like Fubar2000 could convert from one to the other in seconds.

    I can tell you, the stuff coming from Qobuz is not stored in WAV format.

    Accurate information billbillw. Unfortunately, it only takes one pure subjectivist opinion for it to be completely dismissed.

    It seems many don’t do any research to understand why FLAC and ALAC files are indeed lossless, yet still able to save hard drive space, while including the metadata benefits you mention.

    “Compression” of FLAC and ALAC files, doesn't mean the same thing as compression of lossy files such as mp3 and AAC.

    Once understood, one realizes that all the 1s and 0s are fully present and heard during playback of a FLAC file just as they are with a WAV file.
    CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC

    DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)

    Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777

    Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)

    Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150

    Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i

    Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart

    Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    edited December 2023
    Okay, so I have a couple of things on order. I am going to start out with this, based upon some other conversations and research -

    AQ Jitterbug FMJ > RAL USB (power separated from signal) > DAC

    Using a UPnP (already installed) to operate the Lumin UX1, via the Linn app and go over Wi-fi, just as I do when streaming. (In theory, at least from what I have read....this is so damned confusing)

    Currently also looking at a Samsung 2TB SSD that will be hooked straight up to either the laptop or the Lumin. This should give me a little bit of flexibility and options moving forward. I was able to locate my thumb drive but it is an older one and I have no idea whether or not it is compatible.

    Thanks for the advice and suggestions so far. This learning curve is steeper than I thought. So many variables....but I am slowly getting there. I think I just need to dive in and find out things for myself. If I hit a roadblock or stumble along the way, I'll be the first one to come back here and ask the next question.

    Tom
    Post edited by treitz3 on
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    Also, ordered an external CD drive so I don't have to go into my son's room to rip CD's.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    edited December 2023
    Tom,
    All thumbdrives should be compatible, as long as they are formatted to a file system that matches the Lumin. FAT32 would be your best choice to start. I use some very old ones that are 15+ years old. I like to use those older small drives (1GB or smaller) for things like firmware updates.
    Post edited by billbillw on
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Okay, so I have a couple of things on order. I am going to start out with this, based upon some other conversations and research -

    AQ Jitterbug FMJ > RAL USB (power separated from signal) > DAC

    Using a UPnP (already installed) to operate the Lumin UX1, via the Linn app and go over Wi-fi, just as I do when streaming. (In theory, at least from what I have read....this is so damned confusing)

    Currently also looking at a Samsung 2TB SSD that will be hooked straight up to either the laptop or the Lumin. This should give me a little bit of flexibility and options moving forward. I was able to locate my thumb drive but it is an older one and I have no idea whether or not it is compatible.

    Thanks for the advice and suggestions so far. This learning curve is steeper than I thought. So many variables....but I am slowly getting there. I think I just need to dive in and find out things for myself. If I hit a roadblock or stumble along the way, I'll be the first one to come back here and ask the next question.

    Tom

    Possibly just me, but I think your money would have been better spent on a server than that RAL cable. The whole idea of using USB was just as a test, not as a final solution. But hey, my opinions often get shunned here.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    Eh, I have changed my mind for alternative solutions/setups. It's not like I am shunning you or anyone else. I just thought it would be nice to take a "portable" music server with me to someone's house and plug my stuff into theirs.

    The USB cable was bought for a song (compared to new) and I did order the 2TB SSD. I can play around with these tools and learn, as I continue learning about servers. I just came to the decision that I really need to learn through doing things myself because much of this is honestly, quite confusing.

    Without having any experience with it (besides optimizing the streaming portion of the rig), I feel lost at times at which direction to go. The "temporary server" will be the SSD.

    FWIW, I do know that I could get Amazon specials for pennies on the dollar but experience has taught me that a cable can make or break a system. It's worth it to me to experiment with quality gear as I learn.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    edited December 2023
    That's cool. Which portable drive did you decide on? I would have advised one of the Pioneer or Plextor models mounted inside a Nexstar DX. LG drives have gone down in quality of late and Samsung seems to have gotten out of the game. Most of the other brands are rebranded from one of those I mentioned.

    Just keep in mind, that SSD should be a copy of a more secure storage location. If you spend any significant amount of time ripping files, you don't want to loose everything. SSDs are great, but they can also die with very little warning. They don't normally, but it does happen.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    I got the Samsung T9 Portable 2TB SSD. I will eventually get another one for a backup but at this point, I just want to try some things out with maybe 10 albums and see how things go.

    If I can get anywhere close to decent sound, then I will invest the time and most likely get two backups, just in case. There is no way that I am gonna spend the massive amount of time needed to download/upload/rip (or whatever it's called) and build a library, only to have the SSD fail and I have to start the process all over again. Not with well over 1K of CD's to do it too.

    What I am really looking forward to is besting what I hear out of the Marantz SA7S1. I am also (at the same time) working on getting rid of the same noise I did in the streaming rig to better the sound out of the Marantz too. I already have a DAC, IC's, a PC and BNC cable for it, so I have a head start. Just need to figure out the real estate aspect. In other words, where in the heck am I gonna put all of this gear? Real estate in the stereo room is already at a premium.

    Hopefully, by the time all of these moving wheels have settled down and I have more experience/knowledge under my belt? I will hopefully be much more well versed on what direction I would like to go on a server.

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    I was asking about which portable/external CD drive ordered, not about the SSD.

    I hate to say it, but you are probably wasting time trying to get the Marantz to sound better. Ripping the CDs and playing them through the Lumin is much easier and probably sounds better. The CD drive in the Marantz will give mechanical noise and possibly some amount of jitter that would not be in the ripped digital file. It also doesn't take any more real-estate, it will save you from handling the discs and it offers a richer playback experience (with song/band info etc.)
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    edited December 2023
    treitz3 wrote: »

    NOOOOOOOO! That's the cornerstone of what you are trying to do. With all the attention you give to every other aspect, you don't want to use some no-name crap like that. Trust me.
    You want this:
    https://www.amazon.com/Vantec-NST-536S3-BK-NexStar-External-Enclosure/dp/B01MRUN0HQ/?th=1

    and then a decent drive to fit in it. Like this:
    https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-BDR-212V-Blue-ray-Internal-enhanced/dp/B08R89FN61?th=1
    or
    https://www.amazon.com/PioData-Internal-Optical-Drives-DVR-S21DBK/dp/B07355C9DP?th=1
    or...

    I have a Samsung drive that I'm not using, and likely will never use again that I could send you. I have three bluray reader/burners so the Samsung (just does DVD/CD) will not really find a need anymore.
    (EDIT: You would still need the Vantec external drive case above, since my Samsung drive is bare)


    Post edited by billbillw on
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,367
    Geeesh way to go Tom :D:D:D
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    NOTE: I edited my drive recommendations a couple times. Pioneer is the gold standard, but they have sold off their older technology (read not the newest UHD BluRay drives) and it is rebranded as PioData. If you never plan to read or burn a BluRay, then the less expensive PioData S21 CD/DVD drive is an excellent choice.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,367
    I take it Sony and Philips no longer make good CD/DVD/BR drives?
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    edited December 2023
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I take it Sony and Philips no longer make good CD/DVD/BR drives?

    They both exited the market, as did Samsung. Vinpower bought up the lines from several of them including Pioneer, who only focuses on higher end BluRay drives now. At this point, I'm pretty sure there are only LG and the various Vinpower models, not including the bizarre Chinese branded ones.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,699
    edited December 2023
    billbillw wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I take it Sony and Philips no longer make good CD/DVD/BR drives?

    They both exited the market, as did Samsung. Vinpower bought up the lines from several of them including Pioneer, who only focuses on higher end BluRay drives now. At this point, I'm pretty sure there are only LG and the various Vinpower models, not including the bizarre Chinese branded ones.

    I don't think Vinpower make drives either. They are all old Lite-On designs, at least 10-15 years old. I've had drives by Pioneer, Asus, Piodata, Lite-On, Plextor, etc. They are all using this same design, Look at the top of the units.

    https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=liteon+dvd+drive

    https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=8000 100006646&d=dvd+burner

    Some also rebrand LG as well, I have had Asus drives that were rebranded LG. Those are junk.

    I think Lite-On and LG designs are all that's left, and they will disappear eventually too, no demand. So get a couple spare Lite-On's (whatever brand is on it) while you can. Just look at the top. I like the Asus drives.
    Post edited by WilliamM2 on
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,153
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    I don't think Vinpower make drives either. They are all old Lite-On designs, at least 10-15 years old. I've had drives by Pioneer, Asus, Piodata, Lite-On, Plextor, etc. They are all using this same design, Look at the top of the units.

    https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=liteon+dvd+drive

    https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=8000 100006646&d=dvd+burner

    Some also rebrand LG as well, I have had Asus drives that were rebranded LG. Those are junk.

    I think Lite-On and LG are all that's left, and they will disapear eventually too, no demand. So get a couple spare Lite-On's while you can.

    Who knows...Lite-On made some pretty good drives. Yes, honestly, there hasn't been any breakthroughs in CD/DVD reader/burners in 10-15 years. The advancements were and continue to be in BluRay and much of that is related to the burning side of things.

    I think any decent 5.25" internal drive will work well for ripping. Heck, if you look on the dbpoweramp forum thread that I linked, a couple of LG drives are at the very top for percentage of perfect rips, but that can be taken with a grain of salt. A scratched CD will cause errors more often than the actual drive.

    I do know from someone I trust in the MakeMKV community, that LG drives are not as good as they used to be, based on the ability for them to read/rip BluRay discs, not necessarily CDs. I'm not sure if that correlates or not, but this person, who cross-flashes drives to allow for ripping 4K UHD discs, has stopped buying LG drives due to the failure rate.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...