Okay, a completely new discovery for me - Music Server - Questions...

jdjohn

You really only need a few gigabytes of storage to test with. I bet your son has USB stick that would work...maybe more than one. Just make sure he *checks* it [cough] before giving to dad for examination.

billbillw

Personally, I'd want a more traditional SSD if you are going that route. I suspect it would last longer.
Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-One-Touch-External-Portable/dp/B08XKMYCBB?th=1

Less $ too.

msg

billbillw wrote: »

Emlyn wrote: »

As with analog audio the shortest signal path is best. For that purpose music streamed directly from a high quality audio device as a local player with a solid state drive might be the best option. DSD files and other high resolution files are supported this way with no loss of fidelity other than what the player's output devices are up to.

I missed this comment last night. I am going to have to strongly disagree with that statement. Digital files are digital files until they are read by the Streamer and sent to the DAC. It is not comparable to analog audio. It doesn't matter if the digital file saved on the streaming device or it is coming from 1000s of miles away on the internet. As long as the file is not corrupted, the sound should be identical. This is of course assuming a healthy network and no bottlenecks from the Server to the Streamer. In my experience, any properly configured home network with a GigE backbone and a strong AC wireless (or better) will provide plenty of bandwidth for any audio stream, even DSD.

You are dead to me

🤣

msg

treitz3 wrote: »

https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/ENVPMCA10

Would this be good to test with? I know it's a little more than some might want to spend for "just a test" but if it doesn't work out for this? I could use it elsewhere, especially when on vacation. What are your thoughts?

Tom

This is actually a really good question, Tom, one I hadn't considered and overlooked - read speeds.

Personally, I'm partial to Sandisk, and I'm reminded of an article I read on a utility site several years back in which the author recommended fast thumb drives. This is with respect to fast read and write times, which make their use with reading large files more pleasant to work with. This utility is used to live-load OS installers or large utilities, for example. While they did work okay, slow-read rate thumb drives became annoying. Same with writing.
https://pendrivelinux.com/fastest-usb-flash-drives/

Playing audio directly from USB thumb drives or anything bus powered is new to me, so I haven't read up on this to get a sense for what kind of read speeds these devices should support. I've only ever used network or locally stored files.

I've used, and still use, the SanDisk Extreme Pro (newer version than I have is referenced in that article), though that was for computing use, not audio. it's $100 at Chinazon.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GYPZ8GN

I suppose one of us should look into requirements for read rates for the various high-resolution file types, but likely a non-issue unless it's a complete p.o.s.

Here's what I found for the Lumin U1X documentation. They don't mention speed, nor am I able to find the USB interface type (2.0 or 3.0). I suspect any quality USB 3.0 thumb drive would work.
https://www.luminmusic.com/manual/usb-storage.html

Product Page with Specs
https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-u1x.html

msg

erniejade wrote: »

Late to this one. Since 2011, i have gone though Jriver on a laptop usb to a dac, minimserver on a nas to a streamer to the dac, ripped cd's to wave with dbpoweramp, had an external drive hooked to a streamer and I could hear the difference between flac and wave.
I have found my Innuos zen mk3 internal drive for my ripped music to be the better sounding.
I also found when I had an Auralic mini with an internal drive as a streamer to be better sounding for my ripped music vs the NAS, thumb drive, external drive via usb, external drive with a jitterbug usb.

I have not tired roon. I guess that would be my next step?

In any case, for my ripped wave files, I have found the internal drive on my Innuos to sound better then anything housed external. Not sure if its because its less cables, not going though wires, better power supply or what but, to my ears, it just sounds better. Also i can use the Innuos to stream to other devices on the network.

I still back it all up to my nas.

Excellent info.

msg

billbillw wrote: »

Personally, I'd want a more traditional SSD if you are going that route. I suspect it would last longer.
Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-One-Touch-External-Portable/dp/B08XKMYCBB?th=1

Less $ too.

Good point, Bill. And it would take the speed question out of the equation.

With the thumb drive suggestion, it was just to be able to try some bis powered solid state storage potentially already on hand, but you're right, it doesn't make sense to buy a thumb drive especially for this use. Sort losing sight of the forest for the trees, so to speak. Guilty here.

I 2nd your recommendation if there's a purchase to be made for testing at this point if a suitable thumb drive isn't already available.

ChrisD06

Buying an external SSD seems overly pricey for a test.

Why not just get a 64GB flash drive? When it comes to digital audio, the only issue you can possibly encounter related to storing it on a flash drive to stream off of is the bus speed being too slow for the bitrate of the file. Meaning that, if you have a 24-bit/192KHz file, you'll need something that supports 9,216Kbps of bitrate. Fortunately, even USB 2.0 goes up to a whopping 480,000Kbps of speed, so you'll be fine. Infact, USB 1.0 (1996, replaced in 2000 with 2.0) can go up to 12,000Kbps.

If you want to know how much speed you'll need for your files, it's (number of channels) x (bit depth) x (sample rate). You won't have to worry about this though because even 32/768 in 7.1 surround is only 196,608Kbps, which isn't topping out the speed of USB 2.0, the minimum standard on every device since like 2010.

msg

msg wrote: »

billbillw wrote: »

Personally, I'd want a more traditional SSD if you are going that route. I suspect it would last longer.
Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-One-Touch-External-Portable/dp/B08XKMYCBB?th=1

Less $ too.

Good point, Bill. And it would take the speed question out of the equation.

With the thumb drive suggestion, it was just to be able to try some bis powered solid state storage potentially already on hand, but you're right, it doesn't make sense to buy a thumb drive especially for this use. Sort losing sight of the forest for the trees, so to speak. Guilty here.

I 2nd your recommendation if there's a purchase to be made for testing at this point if a suitable thumb drive isn't already available.

Actually, the more I think about this, I'd still personally go with a fast thumb drive. It takes a cable out of the path. For this test, I'm a proponent of shortest path, getting the broadest sweep, eliminating as much as possible.

Plus, I think Tom is saying, either way this thumb drive will end up as a business tool.

billbillw

I think I didn't elaborate enough yesterday. I meant that Tom wanted a 1TB portable source for streaming audio, I think a real SSD based option would be preferable to a flash thumb drive, regardless of what speed testing shows. SSDs have much more sophisticated controllers compared to thumb drives. The NAND type used in SSDs typically has vastly more endurance as well. I can't even remember how many times I've had a thumb drive give errors through the years. I've thrown away more unreliable thumb drives than I have kept.

Now, for a simple test, yes, a thumb drive would work well, but there is no real reason to get one that is 1TB in size. A 64GB or 128GB SanDisk would do the trick. Also, the brand name that Tom linked is pretty much unknown to me. Samsung or SanDisk are the only two thumb drive brands that I would consider.

I have a Samsung Type-C thumb drive that reads and writes as fast as my 1st generation SATA SSDs.

msg wrote: »

Actually, the more I think about this, I'd still personally go with a fast thumb drive. It takes a cable out of the path. For this test, I'm a proponent of shortest path, getting the broadest sweep, eliminating as much as possible.

Plus, I think Tom is saying, either way this thumb drive will end up as a business tool.

Doesn't that take away a place to upgrade?
Does Tom need a shiny overpriced thumb drive from a largely unknown brand as a business tool or something that won't fail him when a client is on the line?

EDIT: I guess OWC is well known among the Apple/Mac community. That's not me.

Emlyn

Regarding the very valid observations that an internal interface yields better sounding results than an external drive connected to a USB input it could be as simple as the engineering team paying attention to the internal interface on their streaming device as part of the design process and not spending much time and money on ensuring the USB input is as stable and without interference as possible for audio purposes. The company has no control over what USB device gets plugged in and timing, jitter, and other negative things can be a factor.

Some companies may do a better job at that second part than others and this is still an emerging technology segment. As expensive as Lumin products and others aimed at the autiophile market are I suspect they spent some time working on their USB inputs. A company like Rotel and others that are getting into this market late probably aim at doing "good enough" to appeal to most people.

heiney9

Tom already knows this, 1's and 0's are not the same, just like in streaming your preferred music service. You heard all the improvements from the associated gear you added/ipgraded to the chain. The network switch, proper power, proper power filtering, Ethernet cable and etheRegen. Much of the back end work is done in your system.

You may need another EtherRegen, unless you decide to go wireless and you know the perils of that from streaming already. It will be the same for a music server, all the areas you improved your streaming also apply to streaming from a computer based music server.

Anyone who says 1's and 0's are the same no matter where generated is not paying attention. Hell, just ripping cd's needs to be done with the proper program and utmost care. Noise and error's can be passed through playback.

Then you have the whole Window's operating system you'll need to deal with to ensure you get a bit perfect unadulterated stream. I think this is where your endpoint software choice is important. It shouldn't let Windows define any of the parameters of the stream.

There's "slap it together and it sounds really good" and there's "having insight into the inherent short comings and using the appropriate pieces of gear and software to make it sound fantastic"

I would think based on the massive improvement Tom has made with his streaming, he'd strive for the same result (the latter). And that is not easy or quick.

I would look into the capabilities of your current streamer to see how it can accommodate adding a computer based component

H9

billbillw

heiney9 wrote: »

Tom already knows this, 1's and 0's are not the same, just like in streaming your preferred music service. You heard all the improvements from the associated gear you added/ipgraded to the chain. The network switch, proper power, proper power filtering, Ethernet cable and etheRegen. Much of the back end work is done in your system.
You may need another EtherRegen, unless you decide to go wireless and you know the perils of that from streaming already. It will be the same for a music server, all the areas you improved your streaming also apply to streaming from a computer based music server.
Anyone who says 1's and 0's are the same no matter where generated is not paying attention. Hell, just ripping cd's needs to be done with the proper program and utmost care. Noise and error's can be passed through playback.
Then you have the whole Window's operating system you'll need to deal with to ensure you get a bit perfect unadulterated stream. I think this is where your endpoint software choice is important. It shouldn't let Windows define any of the parameters of the stream.
There's "slap it together and it sounds really good" and there's "having insight into the inherent short comings and using the appropriate pieces of gear and software to make it sound fantastic"

I would think based on the massive improvement Tom has made with his streaming, he'd strive for the same result (the latter). And that is not easy or quick.
I would look into the capabilities of your current streamer to see how it can accommodate adding a computer based component

H9

OK, lets get to the nitty gritty here. A file, comprised of 1s and 0s, is a file. Unless it is corrupted through transmission, it is the same. All modern computers/electronics/networks have ways to ensure this. Otherwise everything would be lossy in transmission and files would degrade to uselessness every time they were moved or transmitted. This doesn't happen under most circumstances.
I didn't say every file is the same, but if the file is of best quality, it is not going to become worse moving from a local server to a streaming device, unless something in the chain is malfunctioning or not configured correctly.

I'm sure the optimizations that Tom has made have improved things by reducing noise/jitter. That noise is not something that is in the file though. That is something that is picked up by the cables from RFI, or appears when decoding or moving it across different interfaces, like converting from a network signal to a USB signal and reading the USB stream. These things are all very complex. Tom has optimized this portion.

Now, Tom has already said that he vastly prefers the sound coming from his current streaming system, which pulls files from remote servers that could be in Europe or anywhere in the world, and pass through countless "non-audiophile" switches, routers, servers, etc.

Tell me how a set of properly ripped CDs (as I outlined from the beginning), being hosted on a well designed server, connected somewhere on Tom's already optimized network, could possibly sound any worse than the content coming from the internet?

That was my point from the beginning. I never said to slap things together haphazardly.

heiney9

Simply not true. You should read Tom's threads where he added the etheRegen piece of gear. as well as premium Ethernet cables. He prefers it from his current streaming system because of all the noise abatement he's instituted because routers, modem's cables, power supplies are noisy. Doesn't matter where the 1's and 0's come from, it's what the 1's and 0's go through (in his system) up until and including analog conversion that makes his current streaming rig sound so good.

The exact same process needs to be followed if the 1's and 0's are coming from a computer, perhaps even moreso because a computer is a very noisy environment.

1's and 0's are not the same.

H9

billbillw

heiney9 wrote: »

Simply not true. You should read Tom's threads where he added the etheRegen piece of gear. as well as premium Ethernet cables. He prefers it from his current streaming system because of all the noise abatement he's instituted because routers, modem's cables, power supplies are noisy. Doesn't matter where the 1's and 0's come from, it's what the 1's and 0's go through (in his system) up until and including analog conversion that makes his current streaming rig sound so good.

The exact same process needs to be followed if the 1's and 0's are coming from a computer, perhaps even moreso because a computer is a very noisy environment.

1's and 0's are not the same.

H9

How does he control the noise coming from the Qobuz servers?
Sorry, but you are simply over thinking this. If he has the noise reduction in place between his streamer and the internet, a server on his network will go through the same. I'm not suggesting he connect the server directly to his Lumin. It would be on the other side of his wifi bridge (if I understand his previous description)

ChrisD06

heiney9 wrote: »

Simply not true. You should read Tom's threads where he added the etheRegen piece of gear. as well as premium Ethernet cables. He prefers it from his current streaming system because of all the noise abatement he's instituted because routers, modem's cables, power supplies are noisy. Doesn't matter where the 1's and 0's come from, it's what the 1's and 0's go through (in his system) up until and including analog conversion that makes his current streaming rig sound so good.

The exact same process needs to be followed if the 1's and 0's are coming from a computer, perhaps even moreso because a computer is a very noisy environment.

1's and 0's are not the same.

H9

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here.

1s and 0s are the same. Your SSD is either storing a charge or not storing a charge. It can't store a charge differently than storing a charge regularly

If your 1s and 0s suddenly changed to be different 1s and 0s, well, first of all, that's impossible and won't happen because computer don't work this way. But second if all, say a 1 flipped to a 0 and vice versa, that's called data corruption. Your file won't just be lossy, it will be corrupted.

Hard agree with billbillw here.

heiney9

How do you explain different network switches, cables and power conditioning (router and network devices) something like the etheRegen making such a huge difference if 1's and 0's are the same? This is all done pre-conversion and that's a whole other rabbit hole.

Please read about the design of the etheRegen here and tell me again how 1's and 0's are the same? Perhaps I am blaming the 1's and 0's when it's actually a transmission issue causing the 1's and 0's to react differently. But again using better cables, better switches and a device like the etheRegen can make such a HUGE difference?

My interpretation is all 1's and 0's are not the same. Also if you think the etheRegen is snake oil, please have a counter discussion of their research and testing and why it's snake oil. References would be great.

H9

P.s. I didn't believe until I heard very apparent differences.

ChrisD06

heiney9 wrote: »

How do you explain different network switches, cables and power conditioning (router and network devices) something like the etheRegen making such a huge difference if 1's and 0's are the same? This is all done pre-conversion and that's a whole other rabbit hole.

Please read about the design of the etheRegen here and tell me again how 1's and 0's are the same? Perhaps I am blaming the 1's and 0's when it's actually a transmission issue causing the 1's and 0's to react differently. But again using better cables, better switches and a device like the etheRegen can make such a HUGE difference?

My interpretation is all 1's and 0's are not the same. Also if you think the etheRegen is snake oil, please have a counter discussion of their research and testing and why it's snake oil. References would be great.

H9

P.s. I didn't believe until I heard very apparent differences.

Thank you for giving me such an easy task. Power conditioning, to my knowledge, removes AC noise and interference which can leak it's way into the audio signal.

Simple answer for the ether-regen watchamacallit. Tom was experiencing something called the placebo effect. It's well documented, you should look it up.

The ethernetergenerator doo-hicky is a scam meant to fool people who can't think past their two front feet

treitz3

It's the same thing as using an upgraded power cord after or outlet hundreds of miles of non-audiophile electrical x-sfrmr's, sub stations and span. There are some things in this hobby that are inexplicable.

1's and 0's are not as cut and dry as you think.

I definitely would NOT have spent what I did on my streaming rig, had it not been for a simple Ethernet cable swap, at a whopping cost of $14. That day, I discovered something. I took that first observation and kept exploring with different things. That lead to more observations that lead to more gear to extract more of what I was (and was not) hearing at that point.

Gentlemen, here's my thoughts. I figured that I would get an answer to my inquiry within maybe a page of posts. I knew full well that it could get complicated but that a simple solution might work. We may have found that with a thumb drive to test. I may get an SSD drive if that works. Here's what I know now.

I think I'm more confused now than I was before. I'd like to apologize for not being able to respond as I normally do. Life is testing me right now with obligations, work, a new client that is....well, let's just say he's "special". When I add all of that together, along with all of my other obligations?

I do not have the time, especially when I also have to learn this "French" language. I can't tell you how many times I have had to stop and look up 3 or 4 things in one sentence, because I have no clue what it is y'all are talking about.

I used to be the same way about streaming and refining the signal/cleaning up the noise. Last year, I just so happened to get close to 3 weeks off during Christamas and I literally FORCED myself to learn about streaming, what all of the acronyms mean, what they did and how they affect something. That time is simply not available right now. That said, I am glad that I did force myself because now, when people talk about streaming gear, jitter, wave forms and all of the hundreds of acronyms? I can read through a sentence like it was a first grade book, understanding everything.

Y'all speak now and I'm just like......what in the F did he just say? Not because that sentence was hard to understand....but it is hard to understand when you don't know what the acronyms stand for, what computer stuff does what, etc..

Eventually, I will get there. I will read, re-read and re-read again and again, if needed. until I understand this "French" language, as if I were reading as I currently can read about streaming stuff now. For those who have called and PM'd me about this subject. Thank you. Very much. I really, really appreciate your assistance.

At this point I will simply ask questions, as they come across, and monitor the thread discussions. As we all head into the holiday season, time will get even more scarce.




One other note - Chris. Just shut it dude. OMG. Grow up and learn some things before you spew the diarrhea that comes out of your mouth. It is clear to EVERYONE on this forum that you know jack S about even the basics of audio. You really do not know just how ignorant you sound. You simply don't.

Tom

treitz3

ChrisD06 wrote: »

Simple answer for the ether-regen watchamacallit. Tom was experiencing something called the placebo effect. It's well documented, you should look it up.

You do realize that you are talking to the one person that, at an audio event, heard an issue with a speaker - as I was casually walking through the room to go out and enjoy a smoke. There were 20 some odd people in that room, all as quiet as a mouse, critically listening and they all laughed at me when I pointed this issue out. I walked up to the L speaker, told them exactly where the issue was and grabbed a volunteer to come put their ear up to the speaker to see if they heard what I heard.

The listeners all stopped laughing when the first and then second person came up to the speaker and confirmed what I heard, as I was casually walking through the room from 30 feet away.

They kept listening. I learned a couple of minutes later, when someone came out on the porch, to inform me that the very speaker I told them they had an issue with? A capacitor had failed and the speaker was now out of commission.

My point is, if I can casually hear something like this - while there are more than 20 people critically listening, I can damned sure hear what an EtherREGEN does in my own system and in my own room. Placebo? LOL. Get real dude. Tell the 20 people that were in that room that what I heard was a placebo.

Tom

ChrisD06

treitz3 wrote: »

It's the same thing as using an upgraded power cord after or outlet hundreds of miles of non-audiophile electrical x-sfrmr's, sub stations and span. There are some things in this hobby that are inexplicable.

1's and 0's are not as cut and dry as you think.

I definitely would NOT have spent what I did on my streaming rig, had it not been for a simple Ethernet cable swap, at a whopping cost of $14. That day, I discovered something. I took that first observation and kept exploring with different things. That lead to more observations that lead to more gear to extract more of what I was (and was not) hearing at that point.

Gentlemen, here's my thoughts. I figured that I would get an answer to my inquiry within maybe a page of posts. I knew full well that it could get complicated but that a simple solution might work. We may have found that with a thumb drive to test. I may get an SSD drive if that works. Here's what I know now.

I think I'm more confused now than I was before. I'd like to apologize for not being able to respond as I normally do. Life is testing me right now with obligations, work, a new client that is....well, let's just say he's "special". When I add all of that together, along with all of my other obligations?

I do not have the time, especially when I also have to learn this "French" language. I can't tell you how many times I have had to stop and look up 3 or 4 things in one sentence, because I have no clue what it is y'all are talking about.

I used to be the same way about streaming and refining the signal/cleaning up the noise. Last year, I just so happened to get close to 3 weeks off during Christamas and I literally FORCED myself to learn about streaming, what all of the acronyms mean, what they did and how they affect something. That time is simply not available right now. That said, I am glad that I did force myself because now, when people talk about streaming gear, jitter, wave forms and all of the hundreds of acronyms? I can read through a sentence like it was a first grade book, understanding everything.

Y'all speak now and I'm just like......what in the F did he just say? Not because that sentence was hard to understand....but it is hard to understand when you don't know what the acronyms stand for, what computer stuff does what, etc..

Eventually, I will get there. I will read, re-read and re-read again and again, if needed. until I understand this "French" language, as if I were reading as I currently can read about streaming stuff now. For those who have called and PM'd me about this subject. Thank you. Very much. I really, really appreciate your assistance.

At this point I will simply ask questions, as they come across, and monitor the thread discussions. As we all head into the holiday season, time will get even more scarce.




One other note - Chris. Just shut it dude. OMG. Grow up and learn some things before you spew the diarrhea that comes out of your mouth. It is clear to EVERYONE on this forum that you know jack S about even the basics of audio. You really do not know just how ignorant you sound. You simply don't.

Tom

You're an idiot if you think 1s and 0s aren't as cut and dry as they are. I'm sorry, but that's a whole new level of stupidity and the reason scams exist is to target people as gullible as you.

I think YOU should stop pretending you know things that have been disproven countless times by science and basic common sense and spreading them as gospel because "I can hear a difference!!!!" and try to get over your placebo.

Until then, ignored, because I can't stand people like you. Or flat earthers, but might as well bunch you in the same group as them because it's the same reasoning and cluelessness.

treitz3

I'm done with you. You are a waste of my time and honestly, I'd rather carry on a discussion with a donkey. I feel that conversation would be more intellectually stimulating.

Tom

ChrisD06

treitz3 wrote: »

I'm done with you. You are a waste of my time and honestly, I'd rather carry on a discussion with a donkey. I feel that conversation would be more intellectually stimulating.

Tom

Likewise, and seeming as this is the last reply I'll give to you, my advice is if you're truly this delusional, please get screened for schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders ASAP. It's an early symptom you know, and it only gets worse (as it seems to have). Best of luck!

pitdogg2

@ChrisD06
Dude you're way way over the line!

daddyjt

ChrisD06 wrote: »

treitz3 wrote: »

I'm done with you. You are a waste of my time and honestly, I'd rather carry on a discussion with a donkey. I feel that conversation would be more intellectually stimulating.

Tom

Likewise, and seeming as this is the last reply I'll give to you, my advice is if you're truly this delusional, please get screened for schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders ASAP. It's an early symptom you know, and it only gets worse (as it seems to have). Best of luck!

Most here have tolerated your blather with a sort of benign indifference, but now you are openly engaging in personal attacks. If you wish to salvage any sort of future relevance here, I suggest an immediate apology for your recent outburst. I have little faith that it will be forthcoming, but who knows…

You don’t know near as much as you think you do, and science doesn’t have as much to do with this hobby as you think it does. Open you mind and your ears, and you just might be surprised at the folly of what you thought you knew…

heiney9

Tom,

Don't sweat it. It just takes a bit of time to gather the info as this really is a complicated subject because of the level you're already at with streaming. People like ChrisD06 just don't have the audio experiences to make any kind of contribution. He's an "objectionist" and only can think and experience in black and white. It's good to be objective but one also must be equally (and IMO) more subjective and experience in color.

H9

ChrisD06

daddyjt wrote: »

science doesn’t have as much to do with this hobby as you think it does.

🎶 Another one bites the dust 🎶
Audio is science. Seems like that's 3 people now who aren't worth my time.

F1nut

ChrisD06 wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

science doesn’t have as much to do with this hobby as you think it does.

🎶 Another one bites the dust 🎶
Audio is science. Seems like that's 3 people now who aren't worth my time.

Get lost punk.

Faustin

Wow. This has been.......entertaining??. But also educational. At the beginning of this thread, I had no knowledge about streaming music, storing, the hardware, software etc. But, it has prompted me to spend some time researching etc. I will blame all you's when my wife asks why there is new stereo equipment in the house.

daddyjt

ChrisD06 wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

science doesn’t have as much to do with this hobby as you think it does.

🎶 Another one bites the dust 🎶
Audio is science. Seems like that's 3 people now who aren't worth my time.

Believing that this hobby rests solely in the scientific realm is incredibly narrow-minded. It leads people to believe things that are not true - for example, the amplifier below would scientifically out perform any amplifier from McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Krell, etc…

heiney9

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know.

Seems Chris doesn't know and isn't willing to know.......

H9

P.s. Sorry Tom this thread is starting to go way off course.