The EV Hate Thread

Viking64 · February 20

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Viking64 wrote: »

EV?

halen?

Eddie Van Halen?

I'm lost.

He didn't play an internal combustion guitar.
Coincidence?
I think not.

Combustion? I learned to play that solo as a teenager.

machone · February 20

xschop wrote: »

Please compare a Chevy, since the Ford is on the same footing as the Tesla...It is always in the shop.

That's not nice!

polrbehr · February 20

halen wrote: »

Okay. So why do I hate EV's?
I do not hate EVs for the concept or what it is capable of. The fun factor

I hate the propaganda and misleading news media of a greener earth as the reason for going EV. I truly cant stand it.

All noise aside. Like audio or any hobby, I like to try things. All things were designed for a purpose, sure there are failure more than no.

But at least I tried it. Be open minded.

Cheers

I don't hate EVs. I just think they were pushed onto the market by a "green", sky-is-falling thought process (my $.02). And I keep going back to the cost to replace the power source on them. $20K could replace the engine and transmission in my 2014 F150, and leave me with enough money to buy all the gas I would need to drive over a decent pile of scrapped EVs, wouldn't it.

halen · February 20

polrbehr wrote: »

halen wrote: »

Okay. So why do I hate EV's?
I do not hate EVs for the concept or what it is capable of. The fun factor

I hate the propaganda and misleading news media of a greener earth as the reason for going EV. I truly cant stand it.

All noise aside. Like audio or any hobby, I like to try things. All things were designed for a purpose, sure there are failure more than no.

But at least I tried it. Be open minded.

Cheers

I don't hate EVs. I just think they were pushed onto the market by a "green", sky-is-falling thought process (my $.02). And I keep going back to the cost to replace the power source on them. $20K could replace the engine and transmission in my 2014 F150, and leave me with enough money to buy all the gas I would need to drive over a decent pile of scrapped EVs, wouldn't it.

You said it better than I did. I truly dislike the marketing to go EV Green. I find EV to be nothing more than another choice. It is fun to drive. A weekend getaway with all that battery power on tap is awesome. I do not want to bring my diesel generators (noise) heavy ECOFLOW power generators, solar panels all the time during extreme heat or cold.

Sure. There are associated costs up front and long term. Terms I am willing to accept. I am not arguing for EV's or the go green Earth agendas.

As for you Viking. Cheers. I am not sure what you meant by what you posted.

halen

Viking64 · February 20

I was just being silly . . . as usual.

I saw EV and halen and pretended to read it as "Eddie Van Halen".

mhardy6647 · February 20

halen wrote: »

...
As for you Viking. Cheers. I am not sure what you meant by what you posted.
halen

Kex · February 20

Viking64 wrote: »

I was just being silly . . . as usual.

I saw EV and halen and pretended to read it as "Eddie Van Halen".

Yeah… but what about the solo combustion part?! 😱

Viking64 · February 20

Kex wrote: »

Viking64 wrote: »

I was just being silly . . . as usual.

I saw EV and halen and pretended to read it as "Eddie Van Halen".

Yeah… but what about the solo combustion part?! 😱

That's the guitar solo between "Running Without Diesel" and "You Really Hug Trees".

halen · February 20

Kex wrote: »

Viking64 wrote: »

I was just being silly . . . as usual.

I saw EV and halen and pretended to read it as "Eddie Van Halen".

Yeah… but what about the solo combustion part?! 😱

I truly do not know what that meant either.

As for the EV Halen by Viking. Hahahaha. That is effing awesome Eddie Van Halen. Wow. Powerful mind to connect the dots.

I should change my screen name to Ragnar or oh no. Jon Snow the Boss tard that wasnt.

engtaz · February 21

Battery waste is not good for the environment so it's not green. We have to tape up batteries in special bins to be taken to a disposal site.

audioluvr · February 21

Anyone watch "Resident Alien" on Netflix?

Kex · February 21

engtaz wrote: »

Battery waste is not good for the environment so it's not green…

There appears to be a growing secondary market for EV batteries as whole home backup batteries and battery storage facilities for utilities.

Haven’t seen any numbers showing what % of batteries are recycled (or could be recycled) but the early vehicles from the start of the EV boom are only now reaching what might be end of life. The first Tesla Model S and early Nissan Leaf vehicles in particular.

polrbehr · February 21

Kex wrote: »

engtaz wrote: »

Battery waste is not good for the environment so it's not green…

There appears to be a growing secondary market for EV batteries as whole home backup batteries and battery storage facilities for utilities.

Haven’t seen any numbers showing what % of batteries are recycled (or could be recycled) but the early vehicles from the start of the EV boom are only now reaching what might be end of life. The first Tesla Model S and early Nissan Leaf vehicles in particular.

Sitting here waiting for Sal to reappear...

Seriously, and at least where I live, there is talk of BESS facilities, proposed to provide electricity during peak hours. But as far as I know, there is still a moratorium on them until all the safety concerns are addressed. I doubt it will have much of an impact though, not holding my breath to see if electric rates go down as a result.

sucks2beme · February 21

Battery recycling isn't possible on a lot of ev batteries.
Uncle Sam pays out to companies to recycle or render
them less dangerous. When the subsidies stop, so will
the recycling. Much like the plastic recycling scam. 90%
Of plastic goes to a landfill or gets dumped in the ocean.
Any bets on what happens when all that lithium and
other nasties leech out into the soil after they bury the
leftovers?

Willow · February 22

Kex · February 22

Recycling might not be such a big problem…

Everything You Need to Know about EV Battery Disposal

It's one of the many worries you hear about electric vehicles: What happens to the battery packs of EVs when they're used up? We're not supposed to toss certain kinds of small batteries in the trash, so what happens to those that weigh hundreds of pounds? Do they just end up in landfills?

We can simply look to the precedent set by the disposal of smaller high-voltage battery packs, such as those used in the Toyota Prius and the Honda Insight, to answer this question. At the end of their lives, these packs don't end up in landfills.

Are EV Batteries Recyclable?

Instead of trashing the batteries, auto recyclers (the businesses formerly known as junkyards) send them to specialist firms that dismantle the packs and break them down into their different materials: wires, circuitry, plastics, the actual cells. The cells and circuits are crushed to separate and purify the various metals in them, including nickel and lithium.

Dealerships also dispose of used hybrid packs responsibly, relying on collection programs set up by automakers, which send these batteries to those same recyclers to undergo the same dismantling procedures. Toyota's program is arguably the most notable, given that the automaker has sold the bulk of hybrid vehicles in the U.S.

Electric-Car Battery Recycling

While EV batteries hold 20 to 100 times more energy than those used by hybrids, they're recycled pretty much the same way as the smaller ones. The packs are shipped to a facility specializing in battery disassembly and recycling their components. Certain parts are easy: steel, copper, and aluminum scrap metal usually go into the nationwide metals-recycling stream. The plastics may not be recyclable, but they’re a small proportion of the total contents of an EV battery pack.

Stream of Critical Materials

It’s the cells themselves that hold the most allure. They’re the most expensive part of the complete battery pack when new, and the prize is their lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel, and, to a lesser extent, aluminum. The cells are ground up, the resulting stream is purified in various ways, and the end of the process is a pure supply of the desired metals.

Recycling goods is big business across many industries, and the automobile business is no exception, with metals such as steel and aluminum—which make up much of a car's body—typically getting recycled at the end of a vehicle's service life. EVs are distinctive, though, thanks to their battery metals.

In 2017, a Silicon Valley tech entrepreneur with extensive experience in auto startups launched his own company to scale up battery collection and recycling. JB Straubel, one of the earliest employees at Tesla (and also the automaker's former chief technology officer), raised hundreds of millions of dollars of venture capital when he announced the launch of a battery-recycling and -supply startup. Redwood Materials is now headquartered in Carson City, Nevada, not far from Tesla's battery-manufacturing facility in the Reno area. Straubel's decision to focus on supplying battery minerals spurred an investment race, and more than a dozen venture-funded startups or corporate entities have emerged in various parts of the battery-recycling industry.

Currently, Redwood's biggest challenge is procuring a sufficient number of EV batteries to recycle. The company has set up programs with auto-recycler trade groups and automakers, including Ford and Volkswagen, to boost its supply of used cells to feed into its grinders and purifiers. The U.S. Department of Energy even gave Redwood a $2 billion loan to build out its Nevada factory.

Is There a Second Life for Used EV Batteries?

An EV battery pack is assumed to be at the end of its life when it has no more than 70 to 75 percent of its original capacity. Hitting this mark may take 10 years or more. Even with a quarter or more of peak capacity gone, aging battery packs still offer plenty of energy storage—20-to-90 kilowatt-hours, or up to three days' worth of electricity for the average American home. It's long been thought that a robust "second use" industry might spring up to buy and repurpose used packs, extending their lives by another 10 years or more.

This hasn't happened at any scale, though. Sure, automakers installed early demonstration projects, and some energy-storage installations are now live in various countries, but potential customers for on-site energy storage largely continue to prefer fresh new cells over a motley array of used EV packs with unknown usage and duty cycles (basically, the wear and tear of driving).
The challenge of reuse is particularly difficult because new cells are dramatically cheaper now, to the point that it's no longer clear there's a business model in buying, transporting, repurposing, and reselling used cells from older battery packs.

The Future of EV Battery Recycling

What will likely ensure that used battery packs aren't just tossed into the ground is the valuable metals inside: lithium, nickel, cobalt, manganese, aluminum. Demand for batteries will soar in the 2020s and '30s as the world's largest car markets—China, North America, Europe—continue to transition to EVs. And new mining takes a long time to set up, especially in countries with environmental safeguards.

Unlike liquid hydrocarbons, whose energy content is gone after they're burned as gasoline, an atom of cobalt is an atom of cobalt regardless of how many batteries it’s been in. So, end-of-life EV batteries offer a future source of those valuable metals, already extracted from the ground and neatly packaged in a box.

Sure, the battery pack and its cells and modules must be separated and ground up, not to mention have their useful metals divided from their plastic waste, but battery metals recycled here now have a major advantage that newly mined cobalt or nickel may not: They're already located in North America. The Inflation Reduction Act signed by President Biden includes huge subsidies for U.S. production of batteries into the 2030s.

The Inflation Reduction Act's EV purchase incentives apply only to vehicles whose battery minerals come from a list of countries that notably does not include China, which today is the source of most of the world's EV battery metals. But while an EV battery's metals may have come from China when they were first mined, once a U.S. recycler separates the cells back into their component metals, that "new" lithium or nickel is now considered to be from the U.S.

So, don’t worry about the disposal of your EV's battery pack at the end of its life. Odds are it'll be carefully collected and broken down into its component parts, at which point its fundamental components will be made right back into more batteries—perhaps for your next EV.

maxward · February 22

@Kex Thanks.

invalid · February 22

The recycling process produces quite a bit of harmful emissions as well.

Kex · February 22

This is still very much a nascent industry, but given how much progress has been made in just a few years, the “growth curve” looks very encouraging.

I wouldn’t underestimate human ingenuity, or American ingenuity for that matter — which are frequently the same thing.

Willow · June 10

https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/tesla-cybertruck-wont-fit-too-big-lawsuit-resale-clause

Really.....

treitz3 · June 10

Looks like he has enough space to park it to me. Driving a full size truck is no different. He was the one who choose to buy it with that clause in the first place. The fine print matters.

Tom

Willow · June 10

I agree but what s sneaky tactic on behalf of Tesla. Oh and of course measure your spot and the new vehicle. For example, you can't fit an escalade in a townhouse garage (well most of them) unless you plan on entering and exiting Duke's of Hazard style

treitz3 · June 10

Pretty much.

Tom

txcoastal1 · June 10

Pay now, pay later, … but you’re going to pay

F1nut · June 10

They aren't very smart out there.

bcwsrt · June 10

So, I'm reading it that the guy's wife left him because he purchased the Cybertruck. 😝

I wonder how the one I saw at Mecum Indy last month was being offered for sale? Maybe they thought it would go for a premium over-and-above the $50,000 fine?

audioluvr · June 10

See even his wife thought it was lame looking. She left him, now he's trying to get rid of it because he can't afford it.

mrbigbluelight · June 10

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Pay now, pay later, … but you’re going to pay

Exactly.
TANSTAAFL.

steveinaz · June 10

Hybrids make much more sense.

audioluvr · June 10

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

TANSTAAFL.

There ain't no such thing as a fish lollypop?

The EV Hate Thread

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