Refreshing my RTA 15TLs

bcwsrt

OK, it tends to take listening to a familiar and great recording and definitely some volume to tell the difference, and among the recent improvements to my system (amp, room treatments and cables) it's solidly in last place, but after getting some uninterrupted and less sleep-deprived critical listening in today than what I could the past few days, I can say deadening the baskets has made a positive difference. The midrange takes on a greater urgency and attack. Details that were basically formally indistinguishable in the background present themselves for your enjoyment now. Talking about things like rhythm guitar strums, vocal pronunciations and breaths and other similar nuances. The 15s just seem the slightest bit "faster" and more dynamic.

Definitely didn't lose any life. I do notice some recordings seem to have somewhat less bass (might have to revisit those), but perhaps that is truer to the original recording. Because the ones that seemed previously bass-heavy and muddy are noticeably cleaner, tighter and seem to go lower than before.

This is in line with what I expected and maybe less of a resounding endorsement that what others have given this mod. But if you are into the slightest additive improvements and details (like I am) it is worth doing if the drivers are out for J-B Welding or other reasons. I can say without a doubt that with everything I've done so far, these 30 year-old antiques have never sounded so good ... and there's still more to come.

But at this point, mostly, I'm just happy to be able to crank it up and listen without keeping one ear to a magnet hitting the bottom of the cabinet. lol

Gardenstater

What I first noticed was more of what I would call "thwack" in bongos and toms, and more accurate timbre. If you listen to something like the 2nd track (Taboo?) on Santana III it would highlight that.

I did a little more delving into the HushMat specs compared to Dynamat Xtreme and it appears to only have about half of the dampening effectiveness at room temp. and 200 Hz, of the Dynamat (about 210 vs 417). But according to the Dynamat info., adding extra layers increases effectiveness, so it might not be out of the question for you to try that.

plastic_avatar

bcwsrt wrote: »

But at this point, mostly, I'm just happy to be able to crank it up and listen without keeping one ear to a magnet hitting the bottom of the cabinet. lol

Ha!

That is a good feeling

[thinking]

BBQ

Did I see you were in TN? Or did I imagine that...

bcwsrt

Not yet. Illinois for now. I can still like BBQ, right?

plastic_avatar

Ha!

Yes you can.

If you'll be near Memphis, the iconic wet and dry rib choices (for decades) downtown we're The Rum Boogie Café (BB King's place) and The Rendezvous. But there are a dozen great little (cheaper, too) places for your pulled pork and bbq fixins' needs

Paul Latham's Meat Company in Jackson has been around for a loooong time, if you're over that way. Brooksie's Barn has a buffet, but I can't comment on how it is nowadays.

I'd have to check with friends if you're Nashville and East..

bcwsrt

Been to Memphis a number of times. Have a good friend in Collierville from my motorcycle riding days. Never had barbecue there, though. 😮

We’ll be near Cookeville whenever the time comes.

bcwsrt

Time to update this thread with a few comments and pics of getting this project across the finish line!

First things, first. I cannot thank Ivan (pitdogg2) enough for his relentless efforts to knock this out for me. I'm not sure what caused him to reach out to me about this, but I'm grateful he did. This is not a project I could've done anywhere near as confidently and completely as he did. I know it took a hot minute longer than what he expected, but he stuck with it the whole way. This was just a great experience for me being a newbie to the site and having one of the seasoned members reach out with an offer of help. Stand-up guy and I enjoyed getting to know him through the process.

The break-in has just begun, but already I hear distinct improvements. Bigger, more well-defined and more 3D soundstage, airier midrange, tighter upper-bass. I was hesitant to listen to them without at least 100 hours of break-in, but couldn't help myself. If they don't change a bit from here, I'm happy and if they only get better, well ... that'll be just awesome! I liken it, at least so far, to what a successful tube roll does in terms of the change in the sound quality. Everything has changed and changed for the better.

This did just what I was after with these speakers, which is to just take them back to a stock or "stock +" configuration. These are one-owner units that have always been well cared for, so just wanted to refresh them to restore their original performance for another 30 years and not necessarily modify them. I think we have done exactly that and I believe I am done. If I end up looking for "more" at some point, it will be from a different set of speakers, not from trying to get something from these that I feel is missing.

So, on to a few pics ...

Dr. Ivan, getting busy removing the patient's 30+ year-old caps and resistors ...



Out with the OLD ...



... and in with the NEW!

xschop

No one suggested BH5? That'd be a first.
Looking good.

bcwsrt

Well, I just realized I lied about being done. Make some more tweeter plates and I'm a buyer.

On BH5, I see some pros and cons on here, mostly about the exact amount to use, so yeah, it never came up.

Tweeter plate comments are all pro.

pitdogg2

As for BH5 a 4" continous strip from top of active driver to bottom of last active driver. Let this crossover thing marinate for a few months then make the decision, that way you'll know exactly if the BH5 is or isn't an improvement you're looking for. BH5 absolutely can suck the life out of a speaker. After the XO burn in and your familiarity with your speakers as they settle in you will know pretty quickly if it deadens it too much.

plastic_avatar

Exciting!

If you can try that Hell Freezes Over/Eagles/Hotel California track, it's amazing.

And huzzah for @pitdogg2 being your patron saint!

bcwsrt

pitdogg2 wrote: »

As for BH5 a 4" continous strip from top of active driver to bottom of last active driver. Let this crossover thing marinate for a few months then make the decision, that way you'll know exactly if the BH5 is or isn't an improvement you're looking for. BH5 absolutely can suck the life out of a speaker. After the XO burn in and your familiarity with your speakers as they settle in you will know pretty quickly if it deadens it too much.

bcwsrt

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Exciting!

If you can try that Hell Freezes Over/Eagles/Hotel California track, it's amazing.

And huzzah for @pitdogg2 being your patron saint!

Looks like Apple Music can accommodate. 👍

ken brydson

bcwsrt wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

As for BH5 a 4" continous strip from top of active driver to bottom of last active driver. Let this crossover thing marinate for a few months then make the decision, that way you'll know exactly if the BH5 is or isn't an improvement you're looking for. BH5 absolutely can suck the life out of a speaker. After the XO burn in and your familiarity with your speakers as they settle in you will know pretty quickly if it deadens it too much.

Hey, I resemble that comment....

bcwsrt

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Exciting!

If you can try that Hell Freezes Over/Eagles/Hotel California track, it's amazing.

And huzzah for @pitdogg2 being your patron saint!

Excellent recommendation.

xschop

bcwsrt wrote: »

Well, I just realized I lied about being done. Make some more tweeter plates and I'm a buyer.

On BH5, I see some pros and cons on here, mostly about the exact amount to use, so yeah, it never came up.

Tweeter plate comments are all pro.

Looks like we have another uber-modder on our hands.
These are the last of the Mohicans for awhile. We started the process to convert the garage to extra living space, so I'll be busy for awhile when it warms up...

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/195256/xs-monitor-upgrade#latest

pitdogg2

ken brydson wrote: »

bcwsrt wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

As for BH5 a 4" continous strip from top of active driver to bottom of last active driver. Let this crossover thing marinate for a few months then make the decision, that way you'll know exactly if the BH5 is or isn't an improvement you're looking for. BH5 absolutely can suck the life out of a speaker. After the XO burn in and your familiarity with your speakers as they settle in you will know pretty quickly if it deadens it too much.

Hey, I resemble that comment....

You definitely pull it off better Ken!
😁😁

msg

bcwsrt wrote: »

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Exciting!

If you can try that Hell Freezes Over/Eagles/Hotel California track, it's amazing.

And huzzah for @pitdogg2 being your patron saint!

Excellent recommendation.

Very cool, love the chill atmosphere. Can almost hear the music.

Are you noticing sound stage depth or any pronounced imaging effects with the speakers out from the wall that distance? Recently curious about this speaker placement.

plastic_avatar

bcwsrt wrote: »

Tell us about your room treatments!

It looks like a very nice setup for those speakers

bcwsrt

msg wrote: »

bcwsrt wrote: »

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Exciting!

If you can try that Hell Freezes Over/Eagles/Hotel California track, it's amazing.

And huzzah for @pitdogg2 being your patron saint!

Excellent recommendation.

Very cool, love the chill atmosphere. Can almost hear the music.

Are you noticing sound stage depth or any pronounced imaging effects with the speakers out from the wall that distance? Recently curious about this speaker placement.

Thanks!

I followed this YT video for placement. Was an evening well-spent. I ended up within 6 inches (farther out) from the wall of where I originally had them and about a foot closer together (6 feet apart center-to-center). The 30 inches off the wall might be less than it what it appears in the photo. The panels are almost 5 inches thick.

The rear-firing PRs on the 15s make for some pretty crazy standing waves. The distance off the wall helps with that. And, yes, imaging improves, too.

With the addition of the room treatments in early-January, I could probably inch them back towards the wall some more, I just haven’t yet wanted to mess with what is the best sound I’ve ever had from them.

https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0

bcwsrt

plastic_avatar wrote: »

bcwsrt wrote: »

Tell us about your room treatments!

It looks like a very nice setup for those speakers

I did! Lol

bcwsrt wrote: »

It’s actually really a listening “corner.” The left side and rear are open to basically the rest of the basement. Also, the lower part of the ceiling you can see on the left is only 7ft vs 8 ft on the right. Far from ideal. So, to combat the deficiencies in the listening area, I decided to give room treatments a try. First time experiment with those, but it worked! Pretty noticeable improvement in stereo separation, imaging and depth and width of soundstage. I liken it to being more like listening through headphones in that regard. Plus, the panels on the front wall really tamed the negative effects of the rear facing PRs on the 15. The bass from the listening position is tighter and more pronounced. Room treatments are no joke for improving your system’s performance. I may add some “clouds” on the ceiling and possibly some corner treatments later, but for now, I’m pretty happy with the changes just these six panels have made. GIK Accoustics products, BTW.

I definitely recommend them. Wouldn’t have a room without them now. Still wanting to add those clouds as the funds allow. Maybe some more bass traps and/or diffusers down the road.

xschop

Really like the woodgrain on those as well.

bcwsrt

They are a good-looking speaker. These are the walnut finish, but it is pretty light-colored. More like oak.

bcwsrt

Getting a steady diet of AM radio hiss from my Denon receiver when not listening.



The dynamics, bass line and clarity of the horns on this track last night were pretty spectacular. Might be one I use to compare with as time goes on. That ^^^ live Hotel California recording, too.

https://youtu.be/DfJldZB4mpk

So, in what amounts to perhaps the highest of all compliments to Ivan and this project, this morning my wife says she could tell a difference in what she was hearing from upstairs last night. Sounded “less cloudy,” she said. 😳 Why, yes, honey. Yes, it does!

I also noticed that I was able to listen at a lower volume level than previously and still be satisfied with the bass and dynamics.

I get that it’s still early and things are likely to change but happy with the results so far. We will see what is going on again at the 24 hour mark a little later today.

Ronhat

Hi,
I also have the Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers. I had the crossovers rebuilt by westmassguy last year. Added Dynamat extreme , sonic barrier and hurricane nuts. It took a long time to burn in the new crossovers, and trying to get them placed was a nightmare. I finally checked YT and found the same guy you showed. Laid down the railroad tracks and started listening. It worked. Got them dialed in and they sound great!

Jazzhead

High current. I'm glad I listened to F1nut, westmassguy and others preaching high current amps (when I retired my old Kenwood integrated). It makes a huge difference realizing optimal performance, particularly "presence" with low volume listening. In that vein, after your other mods, replacing the internal wire is worth doing (give 'em the firehose of current). VR3, and others recommend Supra Rondo. As pitdogg2 recommends, BH5 (or the 11/4 Sonic Barrier) at the proper amount can really help your speakers not lose composure at higher volumes (becoming a shouty roar). If you find that the entire strip is too much, you can experiment with squares behind each driver. Give yourself plenty of time and evaluate with well-recorded music that you are very familiar with.

bcwsrt

Ronhat wrote: »

Hi,
I also have the Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers. I had the crossovers rebuilt by westmassguy last year. Added Dynamat extreme , sonic barrier and hurricane nuts. It took a long time to burn in the new crossovers, and trying to get them placed was a nightmare. I finally checked YT and found the same guy you showed. Laid down the railroad tracks and started listening. It worked. Got them dialed in and they sound great!

Nice first post and welcome! You had what is by all accounts, The GOAT, involved in yours. I had one of his "apprentices," plus his assistance with some key parts on mine. This forum and everyone's contacts, resources and willingness to help are extraordinary!

Yes, placement is problematic on the 15s. That video should not be underestimated. I used the same, familiar 9 song, 35 minute playlist for each position and made sure I had an uninterrupted several hours to focus on it. Well worth the effort and time.

I'm trying not to get too excited by my early listening, but rebuilding the crossovers seems so far to be in nearly the same league as moving to a high current tube amp. I drafted a PM to Ivan earlier after listening for another 90 minutes this afternoon, but then pulled back on it not wanting to sound too over-the-top since I feel like it might not last in the end. I'll hold off on any more comments about the sound here until around the 100 hour mark on Wednesday evening, or so.

bcwsrt

Jazzhead wrote: »

High current. I'm glad I listened to F1nut, westmassguy and others preaching high current amps (when I retired my old Kenwood integrated). It makes a huge difference realizing optimal performance, particularly "presence" with low volume listening. In that vein, after your other mods, replacing the internal wire is worth doing (give 'em the firehose of current). VR3, and others recommend Supra Rondo. As pitdogg2 recommends, BH5 (or the 11/4 Sonic Barrier) at the proper amount can really help your speakers not lose composure at higher volumes (becoming a shouty roar). If you find that the entire strip is too much, you can experiment with squares behind each driver. Give yourself plenty of time and evaluate with well-recorded music that you are very familiar with.

We talked about the internal wiring last Saturday and again yesterday. I think Ivan is better to elaborate on it, but the conclusion was the boards are not really accommodating of anything bigger than 18 gauge wiring. Drilling out the holes to fit anything bigger turns into a risk vs. reward thing. It was definitely in my thought process, but don't want to cause more problems than it fixes.

I'm 100% on board with your and Ivan's BH5 comments.

Gardenstater

For enlarging the holes for heavier awg wiring, I would recommend using diamond points in a dremel with a variable speed. Very controlled and more of a sideways grinding process, which doesn't lift any traces. I got mine from Harbor Freight.

bcwsrt

Jazzhead wrote: »

... As pitdogg2 recommends, BH5 (or the 11/4 Sonic Barrier) at the proper amount can really help your speakers not lose composure at higher volumes (becoming a shouty roar). If you find that the entire strip is too much, you can experiment with squares behind each driver. Give yourself plenty of time and evaluate with well-recorded music that you are very familiar with.

Meant to comment on the loss of composure and "shouty roar" (great description!) part earlier and it escaped me. I definitely notice this phenomenon with the 15s, or at least I did before this. It's like the speakers suddenly become the weak link at a certain volume level. This description helps me better understand the potential benefit of the BH5 and what to look for down the road. 👍