Refreshing my RTA 15TLs

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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    xschop wrote: »
    bcwsrt wrote: »
    After some time, I think I went too far with the BH5 for these speakers. I lost some of the midrange vocal timbre that used to be there. Male voices don't have quite the body and warmth they did and female voices sound thin compared to before the BH5. It doesn’t sound atrocious or anything (you know, like one backwards-wired SDA-1c would, @chrispyfur 😝). In fact, I'm hearing some noticeable benefits in the separation of instruments, more stable and 3D imaging and they are quite a bit more consistent-sounding as you pour the coals to 'em. I thought they lost some composure playing loudly before and now that's largely gone.

    The best way I can explain what I'm not liking is it seems like it took out a section in the +/- 250-500 Hz range and dropped it somewhere around 100 Hz. I had to back the gain down on my subs a fair amount to compensate, but I couldn’t get the midrange back even with the subs off. So, the BH5 might have taken a little too much "boomy"-ness out?

    They're totally listenable as-is (we are talking something just slightly more than nuances here), but my plan when I get time is to remove enough from that larger 4'x12" strip on top to leave me with the commonly recommended 4”x4” squares behind the two upper drivers (along with the 4"x4" square behind the one bottom driver) and see what happens. This would be removing 25% of what is in there, now.

    If that doesn’t bring the vocal qualities back that went missing, I guess I’ll have two options: 1) try another 33% reduction (50% total) by taking one of the remaining 4”x4” squares away from the top drivers (leaving me with one square behind just one of the two pairs of drivers on the top and bottom), or 2) remove it all.

    I was able to cut some scrap pieces I have fairly easily with a utility knife. Hoping that’s gonna work when I get back inside as well as it seemed to work on my bench (since I can't get a band or table saw in there 😊). Then, pick a corner up with a blade scraper and hope I can peel it back off.

    I was curious what BH5 would do and now I know. As I read elsewhere, a little definitely goes a long way. Hoping with a little tweak I can keep the benefits I’ve noticed and get back the vocals.

    Sorry for the long post. I may be alone here, but I still love these speakers! 😂

    It's refreshing to see a new BH5 review that doesn't add to the echo chamber here.
    Keep adjusting and tweaking until you're happy with the sound.

    Why did you have to quote that whole long-asp post? 😂😂

    To be fair, I used a 2” longer and 1” wider strip than some recommended, mainly because I was starting with 4” wide strips. I believe knowing what I know now, that could’ve been the difference. But sometimes you gotta figure this stuff out on your own.


    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    chrispyfur wrote: »
    I feel mildly attacked!

    You should. I'm not trying to start anything, but I wouldn't take that if I were you.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
    edited July 2023
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    Hey, careful. I’ll send you an empty box with a signature required that you’ll be a prisoner in your own home for, for a week.

    Edit: You think I won’t?
    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    Why did you have to quote that whole long-asp post? 😂😂

    Just because! And that's all the reason you need!

    My anti-favorite is when people quote a long, multiple-photos post immediately following that post just to say, "Cool pix!" Whew, so glad you quoted the post and ALL of the photos to provide context so there'd be no mistaking which photos you thought were cool pix. I'd lose sleep wondering.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    Hey, careful. I’ll send you an empty box with a signature required that you’ll be a prisoner in your own home for, for a week.

    Edit: You think I won’t?

    "SHHHHT!!! Did you hear that? That rumble! It sounded like... it sounded like the FedEx truck. Dammit. No. It was just UPS."

    Then I go outside to check the mail and come back to find the FedEx "sorry we missed you" sticker on my door.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • chrispyfur
    chrispyfur Posts: 170
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    msg wrote: »
    You should. I'm not trying to start anything, but I wouldn't take that if I were you.

    Well, I guess I may have told him that he bought the wrong speaker...
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    chrispyfur wrote: »
    msg wrote: »
    You should. I'm not trying to start anything, but I wouldn't take that if I were you.

    Well, I guess I may have told him that he bought the wrong speaker...

    You did say something like that. Unfortunately, you were 31 years late!


    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    Wasn't too crazy removing the 3 pieces I needed to leave 4x4 pieces behind the top two drivers. My cuts aren’t the cleanest, but no one’s gonna be looking in there, right? Put them together and they measured pretty much exactly 4", which is what I was going for (25%).

    The glue didn't give too big a fit, which was nice. Maybe they changed it over the years? I cleaned the cabinet and pressed it down pretty good when I put it in. Anyway, I was pretty happy about that. Peeled right off.

    ug6i6tbahpdq.jpeg
    cg6kd9pikhck.jpeg

    Definitely brought back some midrange and the more familiar sound I was missing. Noticeably more punchy and dynamic, too! I’ll give it another few weeks listen to decide whether to leave it alone or pull the lower square from the top two drivers. That won’t be hard at all based on today’s experience. And then I still have enough BH5 left that I can put it back again if it goes the wrong way, but I would say it's pretty close to where it needs to be, now.

    This has been a pretty interesting experiment. Stuff is pretty potent and I'm definitely in the "less is more" camp.

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
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    Stuff is pretty potent and I'm definitely in the "less is more" camp.

    Bingo!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    Why are your cuts sloppy?
    bcwsrt wrote: »
    My cuts aren’t the cleanest, but no one’s gonna be looking in there, right?

    I disabled signatures.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    Good info here, B!
    I haven't used the stuff, but am surprised that removing such a relatively small amount of material has such an effect.

    How would you describe the sound you were hearing before making the adjustments? I see you said greater midrange presence, punch and dynamics. I've read people say that too much will suck the life out of the music. Did it sound flat and compressed or something? Or muffled or restrained or anything like that? Just curious.

    Glad you got the magic back! This kinda stuff gives me a smidge of anxiety, i.e., whenever there's something not quite right about my system after I had it relatively dialed.

    bcwsrt wrote: »
    Wasn't too crazy removing the 3 pieces I needed to leave 4x4 pieces behind the top two drivers. My cuts aren’t the cleanest, but no one’s gonna be looking in there, right? Put them together and they measured pretty much exactly 4", which is what I was going for (25%).

    The glue didn't give too big a fit, which was nice. Maybe they changed it over the years? I cleaned the cabinet and pressed it down pretty good when I put it in. Anyway, I was pretty happy about that. Peeled right off.

    Definitely brought back some midrange and the more familiar sound I was missing. Noticeably more punchy and dynamic, too! I’ll give it another few weeks listen to decide whether to leave it alone or pull the lower square from the top two drivers. That won’t be hard at all based on today’s experience. And then I still have enough BH5 left that I can put it back again if it goes the wrong way, but I would say it's pretty close to where it needs to be, now.

    This has been a pretty interesting experiment. Stuff is pretty potent and I'm definitely in the "less is more" camp.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
    edited July 2023
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    What I'll call "too much BH5" really affected the vocals ... and piano. That's the range where the "suck the life out" part happened for me. Just sounded, yes, flat and compressed. I tried to describe it in my earlier long-asp post. Whatever range gives the midrange "life," it just seemed like it was gone and dropped lower in the frequency range.

    Now, the vocal presence is back, but the speakers still sound consistent all the way to 95dB+ and the imaging is remarkably rock solid and stable (the positive impacts of BH5 I noticed, even though I had the loss of vocals). Got my original (pre-BH5) sub settings back, as well.

    Pretty sure I'm officially done. After a few hours, IMO, these things sound nucking futs for what they are. Alison Krauss, Lou Rawls, Vince Gill and Zachary Breaux told the story, among others. Nice, neutral air around Alison's voice and you can feel the low vibrato in Vince's voice.

    Can't express my thanks to the forum enough. The vintage Polk sound is something to behold one you take it to this level. I might still try another BH5 reduction, but it's great knowing that if I do, I'm at a place right now that I can go back to and not believe what Im hearing.

    Edit: Special mention to @Jazzhead for his great descriptions of what to listen for with regard to +/- BH5 changes. Helped a lot!

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    msg wrote: »
    Why are your cuts sloppy?
    bcwsrt wrote: »
    My cuts aren’t the cleanest, but no one’s gonna be looking in there, right?

    Couldn't get my hack/table/band saw in those narrow cabinets! Those SDA guys with the rows and rows of MWs have it made! I won't mention any names!

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    I know, I know, I was just ribbin ya!
    I disabled signatures.
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  • Jazzhead
    Jazzhead Posts: 525
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    @bcwsrt ....Glad you got 'em dialed in! I wish I could hear them. There's nothing more satisfying than working on a project and making it better than stock. Also, if I ever gave a good suggestion it's because I learned it from the good people on this forum.
    Polk Audio first generation RTA-12s; 12 inch Polk Stands; DHS Speaker Service upgraded crossovers w/ Sonicap/Mills; the "westmassguy anti-lobing mod" (hyperdamped outer drivers/mirror imaged); tweeter anti-diffraction mod; Cardas binding posts; Neotech UPOCC internal wire; foam-lined inner driver baskets; xschop phase plugs; deleted fuses; Hurricane nuts; Sonic Barrier; Dynamat Xtreme
    Ayre K-5xeMP preamplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840C CD player; Herbie's Audio Lab Super Black Hole CD Mat
    D-Sonic Custom Audio M3a-600M monoblock amplifiers
    NAD 4155 FM/AM tuner
    Silnote Audio Morpheus Reference II Series II balanced interconnects; Virtue Audio single-ended interconnects
    Kimber 12TC speaker cable w/Furez connectors; VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables w/Furutech connectors
    Herbie's Audio Lab system isolation: Tenderfeet, Big Fat Dots, Grungebuster Dots, Little Fat Gliders
    Dedicated 20A/10 AWG circuit; Furutech GTX-D (G) outlet; Furutech eTP80; Shunyata Research Venom Defender; Synergistic Research Orange fuses
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 4,707
    edited July 2023
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    Glad you got them adjusted to your taste.
    Agree with @jazzhead about making them better than stock, whatever it takes.

    Looking at your pics of the bracing, Im very curious if the TL's had a different bracing arrangement than earlier production?
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,588
    edited July 2023
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    The 15's only came in a TL configuration. There was no SL2000 version. The RTA11's had the T which stood for tower (SL2000) and then came in the TL for the tri-laminate (SL3000) tweeter.
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 4,707
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    The 15's only came in a TL configuration. There was no SL2000 version. The RTA11's had the T which stood for tower (SL2000) and then came in the TL for the tri-laminate (SL3000) tweeter.

    Just meant if Polk changed bracing configuration within the 15TL production runs.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,588
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    xschop wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    The 15's only came in a TL configuration. There was no SL2000 version. The RTA11's had the T which stood for tower (SL2000) and then came in the TL for the tri-laminate (SL3000) tweeter.

    Just meant if Polk changed bracing configuration within the 15TL production runs.

    Okay. I've had eye's on two sets, inside was the same on both. I cannot vouch for where either was in the grand production scheme.
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 4,707
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    Thought you were eyeing 11TLs?
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,588
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    xschop wrote: »
    Thought you were eyeing 11TLs?

    I "eye" a lot of stuff, those came and gone a looong time ago. The seller had the very first rendition of the RTA11T with the particle board riser and raised his price to more than they were worth.

    He's still trying to sell them.

    Even for free I do not want them, I don't like Oak.
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    @F1nut, can you tell me what you'd recommend for the wood veneer on these? Now that I'm 99% sure I'm done messin' with 'em, I wanna detail them again so they look as good as they sound.

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
    edited August 2023
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    @F1nut, can you tell me what you'd recommend for the wood veneer on these? Now that I'm 99% sure I'm done messin' with 'em, I wanna detail them again so they look as good as they sound.

    Your choices are vast. I'd suggest you look at what is available from the online veneer suppliers. This is but one, https://www.jsowoodproducts.com/product-category/wood-veneer-sheets/

    Like Ivan, I don't like oak.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    Oops! Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I’m just wanting to rejuvenate the shine and protect the factory veneer. It’s still in great shape, just not sure what oils or whatever is best to use.

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • Jazzhead
    Jazzhead Posts: 525
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    Too bad, F1 and I were hoping you would re-veneer them with Rosewood, lol...
    Polk Audio first generation RTA-12s; 12 inch Polk Stands; DHS Speaker Service upgraded crossovers w/ Sonicap/Mills; the "westmassguy anti-lobing mod" (hyperdamped outer drivers/mirror imaged); tweeter anti-diffraction mod; Cardas binding posts; Neotech UPOCC internal wire; foam-lined inner driver baskets; xschop phase plugs; deleted fuses; Hurricane nuts; Sonic Barrier; Dynamat Xtreme
    Ayre K-5xeMP preamplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840C CD player; Herbie's Audio Lab Super Black Hole CD Mat
    D-Sonic Custom Audio M3a-600M monoblock amplifiers
    NAD 4155 FM/AM tuner
    Silnote Audio Morpheus Reference II Series II balanced interconnects; Virtue Audio single-ended interconnects
    Kimber 12TC speaker cable w/Furez connectors; VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables w/Furutech connectors
    Herbie's Audio Lab system isolation: Tenderfeet, Big Fat Dots, Grungebuster Dots, Little Fat Gliders
    Dedicated 20A/10 AWG circuit; Furutech GTX-D (G) outlet; Furutech eTP80; Shunyata Research Venom Defender; Synergistic Research Orange fuses
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    Oops! Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I’m just wanting to rejuvenate the shine and protect the factory veneer. It’s still in great shape, just not sure what oils or whatever is best to use.

    The clear coat was lacquer with a satin sheen. Do not put an oil product on them. You could put a wax on them and the world's best is Renaissance Micro-Crystalline. Apply 3 very thin coats buffed out in between. It will not change the sheen and you'll never have to wax them again.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,439
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    I like this stuff in semi-gloss. Dries fast, doesn't stink up the place and wears like iron.

    0bi8n5cw6w6p.png

    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    I can't quite read this, Rob. Could you post a larger screenshot, please?
    audioluvr wrote: »
    I like this stuff in semi-gloss. Dries fast, doesn't stink up the place and wears like iron.
    htshmamdyb8i.png

    I disabled signatures.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
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    Don't apply that on top of another finish.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    F1nut wrote: »
    bcwsrt wrote: »
    Oops! Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I’m just wanting to rejuvenate the shine and protect the factory veneer. It’s still in great shape, just not sure what oils or whatever is best to use.

    The clear coat was lacquer with a satin sheen. Do not put an oil product on them. You could put a wax on them and the world's best is Renaissance Micro-Crystalline. Apply 3 very thin coats buffed out in between. It will not change the sheen and you'll never have to wax them again.

    Excellent. Sounds like exactly what I was after. Many thanks!

    bn0t1g4g3myd.jpeg
    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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