EtherREGEN's - A discussion about them and what it is they do....

treitz3

Hello again, folks. Tom here again trying to embark on a learning journey about yet another aspect that I am completely clueless on.

I am a virgin at this. A complete and utter newbie. I have no clue what the F it does (other than re-clock and isolate with something to do with phase changes). That said, I do not know whether or not I need one but if I do? This opens up a WHOLE other can of worms, as well as my wallet.

DOH!

There are two points to this thread. The first is to determine whether or not I even need one and the second is, if I do? What do I need to know? What do I need to learn? Simply put...WTF does this thing even do?

That said.....

I think at this point I need to describe to you my setup when it comes to Wi-Fi and getting said signal to the rig. I have taken a completely different route than most, from what I understand....Here it goes as simple as possible for just my NAP part of the system;

NETGEAR Nighthawk Multi-Gig Cable Modem CM2000 >
Shunyata Venom Ethernet cable >
NETGEAR Nighthawk Tri-band Mesh (MK83) AX3600 Router >
******wirelessly over Wi-Fi******
NETGEAR Nighthawk Extender (satellite) VIA Wi-Fi >
Shunyata Alpha Ethernet cable >
Auralic Vega G2

Please note that the mesh is NOT hardwired and transmits its signal wirelessly from the mother mesh to one of the satellites. So, (in theory), any noise that is inherent to the incoming signal is eliminated simply due to no way for said noise to transfer from the router to one of the satellites.

I know from experience (so far) that just an Ethernet cable going from the modem to the router makes a difference. While maybe not anywhere near as much as from the satellite to the Auralic Vega G2? It still makes a difference. At least it does in my system.

So, being armed with this information? Do you, in your experience think that an EtherREGEN (as well as a switch) would make that much of a difference in the sonics or no?

I can tell you now that the signal is clear. Very little to no digital hash, congestion or digital glare exists now and I haven't even gotten the upgraded Ethernet cable in yet (Shunyata Omega). So, keep that in mind. It's due to arrive at or near the 11th of January.

_________________________________________________________________________

On to the second part of my inquiry...

If I do need one? What do I need to know? What do I need to learn? Simply put...WTF does this thing even do?

I clicked onto this link and it's blindingly white (even though I have my computer set to a black background)...https://uptoneaudio.com/products/etherregen

I can't seem to read it without getting a headache quickly. So, I am referring to those on this forum that actually have one, have experience and can guide me in the right direction.

If you think I am done here with these two questions? HA! Think again. My next question will be if a clock for the ER (EtherREGEN for short) would also enhance said sonics...

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/59419-master-clock-for-your-etherregen/page/68/#comment-1175495

My head is spinning right now from information overload and I need to take a break from it all and talk to the very people I enjoy speaking with on a seemingly daily basis.

What say you? Please advise and thanks!

Tom

treitz3

I forgot to mention that a new EtherRegen Gen. 2 will be coming out within the next couple of months...

Tom

JayCee

Very well documented by DK and he's posted more over at Audiophilestyle.

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/190575/etherregen-audiophile-ethernet-switch-video-and-audio-review

My comments are in the thread above and I'm still an ER convert. Since posting, I've added an Afterdark external clock and power supply to great affect. DK also did so but a notch better in the Afterdark line than mine. Additionally, should add that my power conditioning has changed from what I posted in the thread above. I've changed to a PS Audio P15 vs the Core Power Technologies products. Still have them (CPT) but in my HT setup. Look at my CP signature block and all my current 2 ch gear is listed for reference.

A/B'ing with/without and I still stand by my previously documented comments w/respect to the EtherREGEN.

Been a while since I visited Audiophilestyle on this but, perhaps, Ray @DarqueKnight can point you to his threads, there.

treitz3

I do remember reading that thread. Once, twice and yet another couple of times but I never really "got" what is was that they were talking about, until I got into streaming music.

With streaming, all of the "known and accepted" rules no longer apply IMO/IME. There are now a new set of rules that need to be applied and I guess I never really knew this until I started really getting into it hardcore. Well, I am here now because I hear the potential and have experienced this potential well beyond what I thought possible.

Apparently? I am behind the curve on this one but we are all on our own separate audio journey's and things are what they are. It appears as if I am catching up but since then? Technology has advanced and adapted more so than that of other avenues of audio.

Where I am at now? Perhaps, I have let the "Pioneers" of this aspect do their thing and I am now embarking on the journey after the "Pioneers" have done their thing and technology has advanced. I can dig it.

Now, I am going my own way with the new technology and am catching up to the "Pioneers", if you will. Okay, that was a horrible analogy.

Whatever the conversation? I'd like to merge my current knowledge (as well as my) complete lack of knowledge with the "Pioneers" and what they have learned. If streaming and the aspect of this type of playback is (or has the potential to be) the Crème de la Crème?

I want to know. I want to hear and I am more than willing to share my audio journey along the way to others that may want to cross the plains.

Tom

DarqueKnight

treitz3 wrote: »

Simply put...WTF does this thing even do?

It provides a path for digital signals that is much lower in noise.

treitz3 wrote: »

I am referring to those on this forum that actually have one, have experience and can guide me in the right direction.

I have two: one in my main audio rig and one in my work rig. I plan to acquire two of the 1 GHz EtherREGENs when they become available, one for the main audio rig and one for the home theater.

treitz3 wrote: »

My next question will be if a clock for the ER (EtherREGEN for short) would also enhance said sonics...

I have external 10 MHz clocks and linear power supplies for both of my EtherREGENs. They did indeed enhance sonic performance. Clock cables and Ethernet cables also made a difference.

Enjoy that digital rabbit hole.

treitz3

Thanks, Ray.

What I am most interested in is if I even need one.

Tom wrote:

Here it goes as simple as possible for just my NAP part of the system;

NETGEAR Nighthawk Multi-Gig Cable Modem CM2000 >
Shunyata Venom Ethernet cable >
NETGEAR Nighthawk Tri-band Mesh (MK83) AX3600 Router >
******wirelessly over Wi-Fi******
NETGEAR Nighthawk Extender (satellite) VIA Wi-Fi >
Shunyata Alpha Ethernet cable >
Auralic Vega G2

Tom

JayCee

treitz3 wrote: »

******wirelessly over Wi-Fi******

As I recall, Ray's system is hard wired. Mine is not. I use a simple wireless access point (air bridge) and I still find it makes a difference. You've drunk the coolaid in that you've proven to yourself (in your cable/router threads) that digital bits can be influenced by/with the underlying noise. My belief is the air gap eliminates a physical component and, in my system, sounds better than a hardwired connection to my router. But, I've read other opinions (experience) that this isn't true for them. One thing in my favor is my listening room is ~20' from my router and Roon server.

Shi t, hit post before I was done typing. LOL. I was going to finish w/Uptone has a 30 day trial. I'd really encourage you to try it when the new ER comes out. I have several other projects to complete before I circle around to the latest ER but will do so at a later date.

treitz3

It is (honestly after hearing the results of Trey's system enhancements) that I question going hard wired. It is rumored (though not confirmed yet) that Auralic products were built for a disconnect within hard wiring.

This, leads me to the questions presented tonight.

There are many different paths to take when it comes to streaming and the common rules are broken (as evidenced by my Ethernet cables (who knew?).

What I am trying to figure out is where I stand. Will a switch/EtherREGEN make a difference (since there is a disconnect) or not?

I am worried that after a great expense that I will actually ADD noise to the system. Hence, my inquiry.

Tom

Clipdat

treitz3 wrote: »

It is rumored (though not confirmed yet) that Auralic products were built for a disconnect within hard wiring.

What does this mean?

treitz3

Not hard wired from modem/router to source. Going over Wi-Fi to get the stream across without the associated noise apparent with said system.

In my case? I go from Mother mesh to a satellite mesh (on a completely different band than that of Wi-Fi), thus, eliminating any noise and blah, blah, blah to said system. Much like decoupling a speaker to the floor, if you will. (Not really, but roll with it for now.....I have a date with the pillow)

Tom

Dr_Wu

Tom,

My streaming system is hardwired. It has definitely benefited from installing th etherRegen between the router and Lumin U2 Mini streamer. The theory is that the switch cleans up "noise" flowing to the streamer from the modem, router, and their AC power sources. Didn't see whether you've upgraded the wall warts or not. The Uptone owners are active on audiophilestyle.com, so you might reach out to them with specific questions.

JayCee

Tom, apologizes if I didn't give you exact answers or engage rather than refer to previous threads but skimming through what I posted several years ago was a trip back in time. I'd forgotten that I'd posted as much, and even what, as I did.

TBH, this whole digital "rabbit hole" is huge and what I learned back then is now just a truth in my mind b/c I've proven it to myself and, at times, haven't always had the exact same outcome other folks have. Good case-in-point is the CAT 5 vs 6 vs 7 vs 8 vs..... rabbit hole. It took quite a bit of time to find what was the proper synergy for MY system.

But, without giving you tons of data, descriptors, metaphors, etc....

I've been doing the audio thing for 40 years and I can say my digital streaming rig is hands down about as good as I've ever heard short of uber systems. Yes, I can do better but I think your comment about the recent advances in digital tech have merit and, at the very least, require an open mind and revisit for those that may have written it off in the past.

Hard to get one's mind around digital "noise" but what you're asking about is the root of all this. IMO, same line of thinking with power supplies/power conditioning....which you've actively been pursuing. I've explained these "aha" moments to other folks and usually been politely brushed off.

treitz3 wrote: »

If streaming and the aspect of this type of playback is (or has the potential to be) the Crème de la Crème?

Yes, IMO, this type of playback has the potential to be the Crème de la Crème.

treitz3

Dr_Wu wrote: »

Tom,

My streaming system is hardwired. It has definitely benefited from installing th etherRegen between the router and Lumin U2 Mini streamer. The theory is that the switch cleans up "noise" flowing to the streamer from the modem, router, and their AC power sources. Didn't see whether you've upgraded the wall warts or not. The Uptone owners are active on audiophilestyle.com, so you might reach out to them with specific questions.

Hello and good evening to you, sir.

I just joined that forum today. In fact, I have joined a couple of them in recent days to find out what is what. It seems that many people do not have the streaming network that I have. 75% of them (estimated) use USB cables to hook up their rig. Beyond that? Very few use Ethernet cables and then there is MASS confusion on the terms (vocabulary) that is seemingly used.

I have no option to hardwire in my house.....unless I plow through an estimated 1K or more worth of expenses to find out if it makes a difference or not. Plus, a lot of scheduling, appointments and aggravation. In other words? If it makes .01% difference?

My Lawd, I'll keep the system set up the way it is. That's a lot of time, trouble and aggravation to get the same (if not worse) than what I have.....and then I have to figure in switches, EtherREGEN's and the rest of what I am planning (which ALSO goes into the thousands).

My wallet can only go so far.....and the NAP system sounds so clean right now that the cost to performance ratio is WAY off the mark (just to find out). I know my ears. I know the sound of my system. At this point in what I am hearing? Thousands of dollars will not make a profound or memorable difference into what I hear.

Tom

treitz3

JayCee wrote: »

Tom, apologizes if I didn't give you exact answers or engage rather than refer to previous threads but skimming through what I posted several years ago was a trip back in time. I'd forgotten that I'd posted as much, and even what, as I did.

No worries. It was good to be refreshed on what everyone wrote.

JayCee wrote: »

Hard to get one's mind around digital "noise" but what you're asking about is the root of all this. IMO, same line of thinking with power supplies/power conditioning....which you've actively been pursuing. I've explained these "aha" moments to other folks and usually been politely brushed off.

People do not know what they don't know, until it's gone. That said, it makes other things WAY more "present".....and one doesn't even need to strain to hear it. It's simply there and then one can work on other things. THIS is what makes this hobby so much fun to me.....the journey!

treitz3 wrote: »

If streaming and the aspect of this type of playback is (or has the potential to be) the Crème de la Crème?

JayCee wrote: »

Yes, IMO, this type of playback has the potential to be the Crème de la Crème.

"Potential".....key word.

Tom

Dr_Wu

Good Evening to You, Tom! I understand your point, and was not suggesting your excellent system would benefit. Just saying what happened to mine. fwiw, I switched to ethernet when I had an Auralic streamer. Auralic likes wifi, but I was plagued by "burps and farts" in the stream that we couldn't chase down. Wired connection seemed to solve that, and it has carried over to the Lumin (and proximity is not an issue).
Keep on enjoying what you've put together!

treitz3

I ran across this one today - https://www.beatechnik.com/lhy-audio-sw-8





There isn't much information out there on these yet, as it's mostly used overseas. Looks like it's built solidly and has many of the same tech that the ER uses. No option to add an external clock though.

_____________________________________________________________________________

That said, I was able to run across this very long article/review today that shed a heck of a lot of light on this subject (to me). It takes a while to read, so if you don't have the time, reserve some time and revisit it later. It touches on one subject that I had always pondered. Using two ER's or "moats" in your signal chain.



The biggest change in sonics (much like the Ethernet cables) come at the point to where the signal enters the DAC or end point of the chain but I could not for the life of me figure out why one would (see photo above) go through a standard switch (dirty signal) into an ER (short for EtherRegen).

Logic would state that you go straight to the ER, with one leg going to daisy chain a standard switch/router for all of your other computer needs. If this isn't possible for some reason I do not know about, please let me know. I haven't ran across anything yet that would say that this isn't possible. I base this theory on the. "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken chit" philosophy. Why start with a dirty signal? Wouldn't one want to start out with a clean signal and clean it up from there (if needed)?

So, since I lose the hardwired connection in my signal chain....I lose part of the noise inherent in certain configurations but this leads me to what I have always thought. The article touches on this within the results. Have one ER at the start and another where it makes the most difference. I.E., at the end of the chain.

Have any of you tried this?

DK, I know you are waiting for the new ER to come out. Maybe you could try this on one of your systems (Two ER's in the chain) when the new ER's come out.

This is quickly becoming a really deep rabbit hole, especially if I end up with 2 ER's and the associated gear/equipment for both of them (LPS's, digital cables, PC's, clocks, BNC cables, etc.). Some of this may or not be needed at the end of the day but the journey in learning and experimenting sure will be fun!

Thanks for the kind words, @Dr_Wu.

Tom

treitz3

^^^ Insides of the LSY Audio SW8



^^^ Insides of the ER (older version no longer available due to chip shortages....new version to start production early 2023)

Tom

VR3

They literally show it is a link sys ethernet switch with a nice power supply and a fancy chassis.....

DarqueKnight

treitz3 wrote: »

DK, I know you are waiting for the new ER to come out. Maybe you could try this on one of your systems (Two ER's in the chain) when the new ER's come out.

I (and others) have tried two ERs daisy-chained. I wrote about my experience here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/64410-a-tale-of-two-daisy-chained-etherregens/#comment-1167269

To summarize, I did not find that two ERs were better than one in the four configurations I tried.

VR3 wrote: »

They literally show it is a link sys ethernet switch with a nice power supply and a fancy chassis.....

My starting point into the world rabbit hole of audio grade Ethernet switches was a cheap ($35) Cisco switch paired with a $150 TeraDak linear power supply. I now have a $640 switch paired with a $1,000 linear power supply and an $2,700 10 MHz clock. I won't mention the power cords, Ethernet cables, and clock cables.

Good luck.

treitz3

Thanks. I appreciate your input! (Gotta be honest here....I am a little bit buzzed right now, so I will read your link tomorrow....)

I take it that your clock is right before the DAC/end point? Please advise and thanks. Happy New Year BTW!

Tom

DarqueKnight

Two clocks are used: a word clock that syncs the DAC and digital music player and a 10 MHz clock that syncs the ER.

VR3

I'm not knocking a link sys setup, I don't know what they are charging for that suped up link sys but I'm fairly certain buying the Li k sys and upgrading the power supply would be less expe sive and similar performance

treitz3

I'm not quite sure what the difference is between a clock and a word clock (still learning) but I will find out. The Clock for the Auralic Vega G2 is the LEO. Now, that ain't cheap at all and they rarely come up on the used market.

I appreciate everyone's input on this. When I made this thread, I didn't really know what this thing did....or how any of this really works. I have spent the better part of the last few weeks trying to make sense of it all. So, what I did today, until the EtherREGEN v2 comes out on the market, is got the following equipment that will be headed my way shortly;

Master Clock - AfterDark Emperor Signature ClayX Giesemann OCXO 10MHz Reference, 75ohm
LPS #1 - AfterDark High Current LPS with 12V / HiFi Tuning Cryo Gold Fuse + Furutech Rhodium IEC, dual rail
DC PC's - Continental Triple Crown CFS DC Power Cable (Limited Edition), 0.8 Meter / Copper Conductor / DC 2.1mm - 2ea
Clock Cable - Project ClayX Black River Giesemann EVA Reference 75ohm BNC Clock Cable, 0.80m
EtherREGEN v1
LPS #2 - Zero Zone 12VDC 15W Linear Power Supply

This should get me set for a stint, so I can actually play around a little bit. The Shunyata Omega Ethernet cable is set to arrive at about the same time, so there will be much experimenting and learning what each one does, as well as the end result to what they actually do in the rig.

Let the fun begin! Everything besides the E cable has been confirmed already boxed up and ready to be sent out as soon as the P.O. opens again.

Tom

erniejade

I hope that when they make the V2 of the EtherREGEN, they keel the power requirements and barrel dimensions the same, so if I change, I won't have to get new cables.

treitz3

I don't see why they would do that. It would only thwart sales and the reason (or at least the reason I read about) they stopped producing them was because of the chip shortages. I would assume that they redesigned another way to make this work, using different chips. I can ask them.

I ran across something very interesting last night. Apparently (not confirmed yet), if you use a dual rail LPS, then you cannot use the clock and EtherREGEN on the same LPS, otherwise, you are breaking the "moat". This apparently shorts the moat in the ER.

Does anyone have any insight on this?

Tom

treitz3

I'm still looking into my query but I was able to take a screenshot (above) from the ER's manual. It doesn't really touch on using a clock and ER with the dual rail LPS.

If I am understanding this correctly though, if the AfterDark LPS (dual rail) has a seperate and not floating ground/shell, then "in theory", the moat is not bypassed by the shared ground and the ADIM (the moat) works as intended.

BTW, Brian. I did pose the question directly to UpTown about the power/connections on the ER v2. I'll let you know when I get a definitive response from the horses mouth.

Tom

treitz3

I just got confirmation back from the owner of UpTown Audio, Brian. Here is his response to your inquiry...

Yes. Input voltage range (7~12V) and DC barrel jack (5.5mm X 2.1mm) will remain the same for EtherREGEN Gen2 as for the original. Exact wattage (current drawn at a input voltages across the range) is not yet known though we expect it to be about the same—9 watts.

Tom

erniejade

Thanks for checking. Since I am using a TeraDak power supply, i had a cable made to fit between the EtherREGEN and the TeraDak. It would be shame if I changed to the newer version to have to have another built. Thats if there is an improvement in sound quality, not just because they can not get parts anymore and making the exact same thing with different parts.

polrbehr

If I may ask, what type of service are you getting from your ISP? I am wondering now if my network (and, therefore, streaming quality) would benefit from an upgraded CAT-x cable. It's a short run from the modem to the router so trying something new would not be out of the question.
Thanks and sorry for the slight derail, but in my defense, I am very bored these days...

treitz3

@polrbehr - That was actually the "accidental discovery" that got me started on all of this. Upgrading the Ethernet cable. My very short journey goes on in the next couple of pages but long story short? For me, the change in sonics is akin to replacing a low end DAC with a high end DAC.

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2705591/#Comment_2705591

After getting the Shunyata E cables? I went up the line and still have another one on the way. Before that even hits the house, I will probably have the other gear I just got (couple of posts above this one) here as well.

Now, I will say this. Some people whom I have told this too (about the E cable) have upgraded theirs as well. All of them using sub $7.00 to $30.00 cables. I am still awaiting some more observations but it seems as if everyone has experienced a change. Some worse (or it exposed other demons in their system) and some better. Some, much better. It is completely up to how the digital side of the streaming system is set up, what gear they have and how resolute their systems are.

What makes such a profound change in my system may or may not have the same end result in your system. There are so many different configurations and variables, I don't think anyone on this planet can say with complete certainty that they will improve anything on your particular setup.

As for incoming speed? I have learned that pretty much anything over 100Mbps is all one would ever need for streaming.....provided that the speed isn't bogged down by other devices within the home. I actually posed that very question here >>> https://community.auralic.com/t/incoming-stream-rates-speed-is-their-an-audible-difference/11373

To answer your question on ISP speeds? I am currently at 631Mbps DL, 20Mbps upload and vary between 9 and 12ms pings. That said, even with my mesh network, by the time the signal gets back to the stereo room, I drop down to about 350-400Mbps. FWIW.

Tom

polrbehr

Thanks for the info @treitz3 - I am going to give an upgraded CAT cable a try, though in my very modest 2ch system, I have no illusions of getting a game-changing difference. But it will be an interesting endeavor to see if cables make a difference (LOL, yes i know they do)