Belles 21a Tube Pre in the house!

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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,560
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    audioluvr wrote: »
    Like what? Sorry for my ignorance.

    btzhc2wrdxgd.jpg

    Some smaller tubes had triangles, diamonds or other marks. They also had numbers all these things can point to a manufacturer of the tube.

    Between the pins I should have stated.
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
    edited December 2019
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    Thanks for the info guys. There are no markings on the bottom what so ever as I've seen on my other tubes. I looked at every 12AU7 variant on the tube depot and the only one that comes even close to a match is this one:
    https://www.tubedepot.com/products/sylvania-5814a-triple-mica

    Edit: So a little additional information I found out. According to Wikipedia Hallicrafter ceased to exist in 1966 when purchased by Northrup. Their tubes were tested for voice quality and low noise before being rebranded with their name. They used a lot of mil spec stuff including 7316 variants (whatever that means). Good information out there! Apparently a tube tester test just means it meets specs but doesn't mean it's worth a crap for audio quality. Maybe I interpreted that wrong but that's my take on it.
    Post edited by audioluvr on
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
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    So I did a little digging, and it looks to be a Raytheon manufactured tube. Here is a Baldwin branded equivalent.
    9g2ihh9zy919.png
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Raytheon-12AU7-PLATINUM-GRADE-Black-Plate-Preamp-Tube-Tested-100-NOS/163533485479?hash=item26135af5a7:g:yAoAAOSwXeJYGW5b
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    edited December 2019
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    Another one branded for Uniline, but with a D shaped getter.
    aljvxxozpz7e.png
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Raytheon-12AU7-ECC82-Black-Plates-D-Getter-w-foil-Strip-Stereo-Tube-1960/401993384417?hash=item5d98ac41e1:g:m4UAAOSws0lTh486
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,560
    edited December 2019
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    Raytheon is no slouch in the tubes as you have found out. After a certain period in time GE made a lot of tubes for many folks. Most of the octal tubes with side ring getters and side flashing were made by GE for Raytheon, CBS and others.
    Many many times we have to do just as you did compare to other tubes as to the construction.
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    edited December 2019
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Raytheon is no slouch in the tubes as you have found out. After a certain period in time GE made a lot of tubes for many folks. Most of the octal tubes with side ring getters and side flashing were made by GE for Raytheon, CBS and others.
    Many many times we have to do just as you did compare to other tubes as to the construction.

    Thanks Ivan - I learned from one of the best ^^^^ ! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    verb wrote: »
    So I did a little digging, and it looks to be a Raytheon manufactured tube. Here is a Baldwin branded equivalent.
    9g2ihh9zy919.png
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Raytheon-12AU7-PLATINUM-GRADE-Black-Plate-Preamp-Tube-Tested-100-NOS/163533485479?hash=item26135af5a7:g:yAoAAOSwXeJYGW5b

    Nice Job Dave! These look exactly like them!
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,981
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    7316 is a real high end 12AU7 variant tube, pretty dang rare These days and I’ve heard they were only made by Amperex Holland, with an extremely high end price. Don’t think Hallicrafters used crummy tubes.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,560
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    Boy I guess they are.
    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=7316+tube+pair&_trksid=p2380057.m4084.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.X7316+t.TRS0
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Boy I guess they are.
    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=7316+tube+pair&_trksid=p2380057.m4084.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.X7316+t.TRS0

    I think I have a set on my eBay watch list. Just need to win the lottery first.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,871
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    i might try a pair of these.
    https://www.thetubestore.com/amperex-pq-7316-premium-12au7
    i have a pair of 7dj8 ( a 6dj8 replacement) from the same factory and they sound great.
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    Hmmm It doesn't say they are available any more. At that price I'd have grabbed a couple.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,560
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    Yep when you don't have them you can charge whatever you want lol 😂
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    Got my B&K monos back last night and ran a signal through them all night last night and I've been tube rolling the Belles. This is what I've found:

    12au7 RCA clear tops with side getters (1950's): Nice detail up top, solid bass and good imaging beyond speaker location.

    12au7 Mullard Mitchum's (1959): Very balanced from top to bottom registers, good detail all around with maybe slightly less imaging range outside speaker location.

    12au7 Sylvania long black plate halo getters marked "Baldwin" ((early 1960's): Very good all around detail. Solid bass and excellent imaging beyond speaker location with a holographic quality where you can hear reflections or echos in weird unexpected locations throughout the listening room.

    12au7 Sylvania long black plate halo getters marked "Hallicrafter" (1962). Outstanding detail. Solid bass and superb imaging beyond speaker locations with an amazing holographic quality that is heavenly!

    I even mixed and matched the Sylvania's but could clearly hear the Hallicrafters difference even though these are virtually identical tubes other than markings.

    One thing I miss about the Hafler 500 I borrowed is it's more revealing upper registers. It's bass was subdued and flabby but those highs! The B&K monos are smoother and less revealing on the highs but everything else about them are far superior bass is extremely tight and detailed and imaging is to die for!

    The Belles with the Hallicrafter tubes combined with the B&K monos move the soundstage to range from about 3-4 ft behind my speakers to about 10 inches from my ears front to back. Left to right I'd say I'm hearing a 160 degree range where the speakers are only at 60 degrees and I'm hearing things at least a foot above the tops of the speakers.

    So with all that said It looks like I should be happy for a while, hopefully.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,599
    edited January 2020
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    As a lover of 3D wrap around your head imaging, it sounds like I would enjoy it.
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,002
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    As a lover of 3D wrap around your head imaging, it sounds like I would enjoy it.

    I wholeheartedly agree!! I will have to hunt down a pair of the Hallicrafters.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
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    Interesting comments about the Hallicrafter tubes! I did not know they make tubes. Or maybe just rebranded?
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,316
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    audioluvr wrote: »
    The Belles with the Hallicrafter tubes combined with the B&K monos move the soundstage to range from about 3-4 ft behind my speakers to about 10 inches from my ears front to back. Left to right I'd say I'm hearing a 160 degree range where the speakers are only at 60 degrees and I'm hearing things at least a foot above the tops of the speakers.
    Sounds to me that the sound got pushed forward in its presentation quite a bit with that combo. What changed with the perceivable depth perception when it moved forward that much?

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    I guess to me anyways, I'm always looking for three things when A/B ing stuff.

    First is how far outside of the speakers a certain distinct musical signature is perceived. I listened with my eyes closed and point my finger at where I imagine it is coming from. Then open my eyes and see what in my room I'm pointing at and use that location as a reference to me at least the wider the better.
    Second is depth. I'll take notes on distance the signature is perceived from my location. Does everything move forward? Does only certain musical signatures move?

    Third is realism. This is one of those with variables. For example is it musically accurate to the point of analytical or does it have that special shimmer like you are in a music Hall where it surrounds you. The ladder is my personal favorite.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter