Belles 21a Tube Pre in the house!

audioluvr
audioluvr Posts: 5,607
in 2 Channel Audio
Well, Got me an early Christmas present!

l81tfsmacaao.jpg

Came with a couple sets of tubes. Unfortunately someone installed Dayton caps but I'm digging it as is for now! I'll probably upgrade them to something better. Any suggestions? I need 4ea. 15uF and 1ea. 2.2uF caps. I have a set of Mullards on the way thanks to @Gerres26.
Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
    YOU SUK! Just kidding, that was jealousy raring it's ugly head :)

    A pick of the innerds would help, some caps might not fit. I haven't heard this pre, but, I'm betting it sounds pretty sweet, or, will with the caps upgraded.
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,903
    kharp1 wrote: »
    YOU SUK! Just kidding, that was jealousy raring it's ugly head :)

    A pick of the innerds would help, some caps might not fit. I haven't heard this pre, but, I'm betting it sounds pretty sweet, or, will with the caps upgraded.

    here you go.
    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/189041/ebay-sellers-misrepresentation#latest
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
    Puritan PSM156
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    I'm using it with a Hafler 500 amp. If it makes that crappy thing sound good I can only imagine what it'll sound like with my monos. It came with two sets of tubes. One set of Westinghouse's made in England and another set I can't read. The Westys were borderline harsh but these other ones are sweet!

    4avwl7m7a0q2.jpg
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
    Posted this in another thread by mistake:

    I'm thinking that there cold be several ways you could go here. I'd try to work out some better deal with the guy, if possible, or, just play it as is for now and plan for a cap upgrade down the road. There appears to be enough room to make some improvement. Mundorf, Jantzen, Audyne, Jupiter all make some good sounding caps. The Jupiter are physically bigger, some are square or rectangular, but, you can come up with the values you need and play around with the space. This would be a good project that could provide good improvement for the buck.
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    Thanks Kerry! I'll look into those others.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 10,018
    How many 12Au7's do you use in that preamp?
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    Soo, is it more musical than your other pre ? Like we all said. :) Once you get addicted to that tube sound, it's hard to go back to SS.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,903
    dromunds wrote: »
    How many 12Au7's do you use in that preamp?

    Two
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
    Puritan PSM156
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 10,018
    marvda1 wrote: »
    dromunds wrote: »
    How many 12Au7's do you use in that preamp?

    Two

    Duh, yeah I just looked at the photo in the other thread. Thanks.
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    tonyb wrote: »
    Soo, is it more musical than your other pre ? Like we all said. :) Once you get addicted to that tube sound, it's hard to go back to SS.

    Yes Tony, as always you are correct. From what I can tell so far it is quite a leap up from SS.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
    A tube pre is, in my opinion, where you get real bang for the buck.
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    Okay so some issues that I'm noticing which may make me have to return this if it can't be fixed. One is that one of the caps that some idiot ( no offense if it was one of you guys ) replaced on this at one time, is wrong. It's not one of the 4 that the factory usually replaces for the upgrade but the one between them. It's supposed to be 2.2uF and the one in there is 15uF. Another issue is while playing music it has a noticeable background hum like a tuning fork. When I press the mute it stops. Any thoughts?
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,151
    Are any of your power cables in parallel and sitting close to a signal wire?

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    No but I think I may have figured out where it 's coming from. The one set of tubes that are in boxes (the Westinghouse England) ones are 12ax7a's and this pre is supposed to be using 12au7a. Would that affect anything? Should I stop using it?
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • codycatalist
    codycatalist Posts: 2,662
    audioluvr wrote: »
    No but I think I may have figured out where it 's coming from. The one set of tubes that are in boxes (the Westinghouse England) ones are 12ax7a's and this pre is supposed to be using 12au7a. Would that affect anything? Should I stop using it?

    Dunno but the a versions but 12AX7s have more gain than AU7s
    Just a dude doing dude-ly things

    "Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    That would explain why when the volume is on 2 out of 10 everyone in the house starts freaking out.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 10,018
    Get those 12AX7’s outa there.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    dromunds wrote: »
    Get those 12AX7’s outa there.

    I agree. First things first is to get the right tubes in it, preferably NOS.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 10,018
    1959 Mitchum-made Mullards from Gerres26 coming. That'll make a difference
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  • Gerres26
    Gerres26 Posts: 864
    dromunds wrote: »
    1959 Mitchum-made Mullards from Gerres26 coming. That'll make a difference

    That they will!
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    I got a $300 refund from the PO so I went ahead and ordered Mundorf Supremes to replace all the crappy caps that were in there. Curious what difference good / correct caps will make. Thanks again for all the help I've had here. One foot on audio nirvana and the other in the poor house!
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dhart86
    dhart86 Posts: 1,594
    audioluvr wrote: »
    One foot on audio nirvana and the other in the poor house!

    That's signature material...we all share in that dual reality. The right tubes and caps should show you what that preamp can do. Power it with a Shunyata power cord once you settle in
    Main Rig:
    Antipodes DX > Roon > PS Audio Directstream Jr.>deHavilland Ultraverve 3 >Belles Reference 150a >Harbeth C7 ES3


    Second Rig:
    Roon> PS Audio Directstream Jr Bridge II > EE Minimax pre (Tutay mods) >Belles 150A Ref >Monitor 5 (Westmassguy-modded)


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  • kevhed72
    kevhed72 Posts: 5,059
    Do us a favor and shoot some pics of the cap replacement process....Im thinking of trying out this pre next since I already have a Belles amp.
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    If you want a match made in heaven,,try an audible illusions with that Belles,, I had an L-1 and 350a for years
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    edited December 2019
    Well today everyone left for post holiday life, leaving me the opportunity to install my newly acquired capacitors into this Belles 21A pre. I opted for the Mundorf Supreme caps as Auricap doesn't carry a 15uF any more. Upon their arrival first thing I noticed is that they are HUGE. Easily 4 times bigger than the Auricaps and Daytons. This of course made me have to do some modifications to the circuit board. I could have gone with the cheap Mundorfs but then I would have been always wondering what if...

    Project took WAY longer than it should have but me being borderline obsessive compulsive needed to make sure everything was clean and correct. Reflowed any questionable solders with Cardas solder etc. Since this was my first dip into the tube world I didn't want to do it half assed.

    30wbprp1wksb.jpg

    Here's the way it came to me. Dayton caps and Cornell Dublier bypass caps. The PO bought it under the impression David Belles did a recap. Possible but I wouldn't think the original designer of this pre would would use lower grade poly caps that were in it originally.

    kbucw73orx38.jpg

    I pulled the face off first then removed all the RCA hold down nuts so I could remove the circuit board from the base.

    4hhl6p3o6pxl.jpg


    Here is the board stripped and the Dayton 15uF cap correct cap replaced with the correct 2.2uF Mundorf Supreme

    Post edited by audioluvr on
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,151
    I opted for the Mundorf Supreme caps as Auricap doesn't carry a 15uF any more.
    Well, we all feel sorry for you that you would have to put up with such a loss. Prayers sent and best wishes for you and yours to come. If only we all had your problems...

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    Here's a final picture of the new caps installed and a celebratory drink...

    gna7038qt1bw.jpg
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    edited December 2019
    treitz3 wrote: »
    I opted for the Mundorf Supreme caps as Auricap doesn't carry a 15uF any more.
    Well, we all feel sorry for you that you would have to put up with such a loss. Prayers sent and best wishes for you and yours to come. If only we all had your problems...

    Tom

    Do not despair Tom. From what I've read with the "cap rolling crowd" these are a step up from the Auricaps.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,151
    Oh, trust me....

    That was pure satire. Congrat's my man. Sweet. If only some had to "put up with" what you had too.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,607
    Only a few hours burned in and already I'm noticing a significant 3D improvement. Sure could be the Irish whiskey but...
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter