What pisses me off....Power cords

So, I re adjust everything on my subs for days/weeks on end and listen. All is well. I like what I hear.

So, I go to add in PC's and get my listening on.....The sound completely changes.

I knew that PC changes are "minimal". Little did I know that I was wrong. Completely wrong. It's back to the GD original slate for sound.

I apologize for the attitude but damn....I was expecting the same to "little" difference in sound. Man, was I wrong.

When one reaches a certain point of gear, PC's make more than a difference. They change the entire spectrum of sound. WTF?

Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

~ I have found excellence ~

~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

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Comments

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 22,982
    Welcome to the mystery of high end audio. ;) I noticed this when I got my Pass X1, and more so with the X0.2... I still need to upgrade the cord on that.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Statement V2 cartridge and Origin Conqueror Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 14,670
    Power and power cords are the foundation for a system. If you have a weak foundation then the system will never perform at its best. With a good, solid foundation you can expect any system to perform at its best. It took me a while, and a lot of money, to learn that.
    Lumin X1 file player; Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • Kex
    Kex Posts: 4,442
    😑 🤦‍♂️

    Ignorance is bliss! 😂
    Alea jacta est!
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 22,982
    Kex wrote: »
    😑 🤦‍♂️

    Ignorance is bliss! 😂

    And less damaging to the wallet.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Statement V2 cartridge and Origin Conqueror Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 14,560
    Perhaps I should expand on what I stated. PC's for the "upper end" of the system make a difference. I get that. It's minimal but it adds to the last 5% of said system, which adds to the system (The worth of improvement is up to the beholder).

    I had NO IDEA that it would make so much of a difference on the lower end of the spectrum. I had dialed my rig in and then I simply added in the upgraded PC's.

    Now I am back to beginning again. THAT'S what pisses me off.

    That was a lot of work to dial in said system...

    While ignorance may be bliss, it does not move one forward toward better sound. That is the end result I always strive toward.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

    ~ I have found excellence ~

    ~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 24,676
    Did you check the phase?
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,944
    What cables did you get Tom?
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,944
    Bet those cost a pretty penny
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 24,676
    I actually believe Tom melted a penny to get the copper for which he used to make said cables!
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 19,234
    VR3 wrote: »
    I actually believe Tom melted a penny to get the copper for which he used to make said cables!

    That's a Federal offense....
    Outlaw Cables.... has a ring to it..
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 9,500
    joecoulson wrote: »
    What cables did you get Tom?

    We need to know. Maybe not need but still, quit holding out on us.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 22,982
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    VR3 wrote: »
    I actually believe Tom melted a penny to get the copper for which he used to make said cables!

    That's a Federal offense....
    Outlaw Cables.... has a ring to it..

    Would they be made in the backwoods in a manner similar to moonshine? Would the ATF need to change their name to include cables?
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Statement V2 cartridge and Origin Conqueror Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 19,234
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    VR3 wrote: »
    I actually believe Tom melted a penny to get the copper for which he used to make said cables!

    That's a Federal offense....
    Outlaw Cables.... has a ring to it..

    Would they be made in the backwoods in a manner similar to moonshine? Would the ATF need to change their name to include cables?

    Well they did a few years ago they are now ATFE
    But I bet in his neck of the woods those guys making spirits are always fearing the ABC'ers. Alcohol Beverage Control

    :p
  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 2,425
    Yank em and sell em or let em settle-in. I recommend the later🤓
    Power Rogue M180 monos & Adcom GFA 5802
    PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
    Rears Salk SuperCharged Surrounds
    Source PSA PWT into NSD Supremo
    Pre/Pro Integra DHC 40.1
    LCD Samsung LN46B750
    Mains Salk HT2-TL
    Center Salk HT2C
    Pre Cary SLP-05
    Wires WW & MIT
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 14,560
    They were PS Audio something or other PC's that I have had for a while just sitting in the closet ready for install. Nothing extraordinarily special. Went from the stock cables to the PSA's and the bottom end is now all discombobulated. Still sounds "good" but is no longer dialed in/well balanced to the rest of the system.

    The Rythmik F25's are a beast to dial in because of their size and location. They are on Target stands and very close to the wall. I have to clear the crossover units I have, the main speakers just to get to the subs and then I have to spin them around to make any adjustments, then spin them back around and then shimmy my way back out from the crossover units and the main speakers. Since I have 2 of them, repeat this twice for any adjustment I want to make.

    So after weeks of dialing them in, I am back to where I started. The Marantz I have has subterranean bass and the Rhythmik's deliver said bass in spades. I had them right where I wanted them and now I'm back to square one having to start all over again. Grrr....

    This hobby is definitely a love/hate relationship.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

    ~ I have found excellence ~

    ~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 14,560
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    That's a Federal offense....
    Outlaw Cables.... has a ring to it..

    https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/cab_pca_about.html

    I actually have a couple of Outlaw IC's laying around here somewhere. Pretty decent IC's that left the system when I got the Transparent Reference IC's.

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

    ~ I have found excellence ~

    ~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 24,676
    Why not just go back to the stock cables 😜
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,322
    VR3 wrote: »
    Why not just go back to the stock cables 😜

    Agreed, if you liked what you heard before, why change what isn't broken.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,597
    edited December 2019
    Hey Tom,

    maybe I missed it somewhere, but how long have you been running the new PSAs?

    I can't explain any of this when it happens to me, but I notice sometimes that my systems sometimes take time to settle down again after I make changes. When it happens I find myself wondering whether I'm imagining it but my cartskin-based listening sensors say otherwise. I've had bass almost completely drop out before from a series of "simple" adjustments that should have had little to no effect. Further, the net effect was a loss of a measure of engagement, ie, that special experience that's difficult to describe, but that we somehow know when it's not there.

    The cables could also have gone bad sitting in the closet so long. Maybe even offed themselves out of spite for the lack of attention.
    I disabled signatures.
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,944
    Lol. That last sentence.

    I think it will give you something to do Tom. Leave them and work with it, gotta better than stock metallurgy.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 14,560
    VR3 wrote: »
    Why not just go back to the stock cables 😜
    tonyb wrote: »
    Agreed, if you liked what you heard before, why change what isn't broken.

    Because I am constantly pursuing how to extract the very best out of my system. I'm quite sure I'll be in the same situation when the Dodd MLP gets repaired and put back into the system. Besides, I do like what I hear better than the other cords. It's much more enveloping, has more deep bass authority and has considerably enhanced the perceived sound stage and placement of everything...it's just that it's "too much" of a good thing....an overponderance of bass, if you will, when blended with the rest of the rig.

    I'll get it right again but with keeping the attributes that came with the PC's. I guess I hate it because the subs are so hard to get at to adjust again.
    msg wrote: »
    Hey Tom, maybe I missed it somewhere, but how long have you been running the new PSAs?
    I finally got around to installing them yesterday afternoon. One of the cords has been in my system for years, the other one, I bought earlier this year because I needed a longer one than the one I had originally slated for that slot in the rig. After hours and hours of listening to many albums, I had a hankerin' to put them in and see what they sounded like. Did not expect them to make THAT much of a difference. Slight yes, what I hear now? Definitely was not expecting that.
    msg wrote: »
    I can't explain any of this when it happens to me, but I notice sometimes that my systems sometimes take time to settle down again after I make changes. When it happens I find myself wondering whether I'm imagining it but my cartskin-based listening sensors say otherwise. I've had bass almost completely drop out before from a series of "simple" adjustments that should have had little to no effect. Further, the net effect was a loss of a measure of engagement, ie, that special experience that's difficult to describe, but that we somehow know when it's not there.
    I actually though about that very thing last night.

    Gary Koh (Owner of Genesis) and I were having a discussion many years back about power cords and effects from within them and how they can alter a system. Within that discussion was a down to earth explanation that made perfect sense to me. What he discussed was that PC's have electrons flow through them in a certain way. We both felt that these electrons align themselves the more the system gets played and we both agreed with each other that this was an audible trait for some. Much like a capacitor breaking in, albeit completely different, it is much the same.

    Now, take that PC out of the system and throw it on the ground or drop it on the ground. You have just disturbed the electron flow. It's akin to taking a screwdriver and hitting the end of it with a hammer. Doing so can make it a positive magnetic tendency or a negative magnetic tendency. It's the same screwdriver that looks exactly the same but with different characteristics. Well, if you take a cord out, drop it on the ground or otherwise disturb it, the electron flow will be altered. It's the same PC that looks exactly the same but with different characteristics.

    The new cord was shipped to me and I have no way of telling just how many times it got thrown down or "shocked" before it got to me.

    I will let the system play for a week or two before messing with it for that very reason. It may tone itself down a little bit and then hopefully it will be minor adjustments to get it dialed back to where it was....while enjoying the new attributes.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

    ~ I have found excellence ~

    ~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 3,621
    edited December 2019
    PC and cables are all snake oil. They make no difference in the quality of the signal path. You probably have a head cold coming on or something which alters your hearing perception.

    Or not.
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Belles 350A Reference modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January.

    by Dr. Sardonicus
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 19,234
    Insert coconut audio in there somewhere. Tom remember the magic crystals ?
    LMAO throw them on the ground and shake up the electrons. Maybe all the electrons fell out when you picked up and didn't cover the IEC holes....

  • BjornB17
    BjornB17 Posts: 752
    edited December 2019
    I'm not disagreeing, but trying to understand how a power cable makes such a big difference when the wires in your walls to the outlet are nothing special? Do special power cables attenuate the electricity from wall into the equipment in some way?
    KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 46,117
    It's simple Tom, the stock cords were restricting current. The PS Audio cords aren't, which means more bass. Turning the volume down on the subs will get the balance back.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,671
    Settle down Tom....
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 24,676
    Tom you don't have a dedicated circuit yet right? So your whole rig is off one circuit?
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 14,560
    One circuit for the time being, yes. A 20 amp dedicated is slated soon.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

    ~ I have found excellence ~

    ~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 24,676
    You should add 3 dedicated circuits
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro