Power Line EMI Meter - Alpha Labs (Demo Program)

tratliff

Not a problem. The more research we can collect the better. Thanks for letting me know.

jdjohn

Thanks to everyone for your patience. I received the PSA PowerPlant3 regenerator today, and have been conducting measurements this evening with the EMI meter. PM sent to tratliff for shipping info, because frankly...this tester is straight from hell It will make you question everything!

Apparently, I should just use my Chang Lightspeed power conditioner, and be done!

I'll try to piece together some more formal comments.

P.S. I'll be conducting listening tests as well between my particular power devices, but will likely start a new thread. This may be like splitting hairs from a gnat's a$$.

tratliff

PM responded to with details. Thanks.

JayCee

@jdjohn, interesting findings. Thanks for sharing. I have a Core Power Technologies 1800 and will perform the same as you w/my gear. I definitely hear a positive difference running my BHK pre, amp and PSA DAC through the CPT. Don't tell me I may question my entire conditioning beliefs when I get this meter. Say it ain't so!

jdjohn

@JayCee ... brace yourself. The question is: do I let EMI measurements alone make my decision on power products?

erniejade

So @jdjohn Chang Lightspeed power  looks like its the one to find? Did you notice a sound quality difference regardless of how it measured against the PSA?

JayCee

CPT, ie. Underwood Hifi/Walter Liederman, has a product called Deep Core. Was created by the previous owner of CPT but had major problems smoking gear. Long story but that's all been worked out and Walter now stands behind/owns CPT.

Deep Core is supposed to tackle EMI, RFI, DC and is billed as the companion to the 1800. It's currently on the perpetual "on sale" train Underwood is known for. I've contemplated getting it but the one caveat to buying "on sale" from Wally is there are no returns (eval periods) if not purchased at list price.

https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/deepcore-1800

The techno jargon on the website is a bit fuzzy convincing me it works and it's hard to find any reviews of the product so am on the fence. I may just call him to discuss further as this weekend is Underwood's President's Day sale and I'm close to getting Verbs loaner EMI meter. Decisions, decisions....

jdjohn

Hey @erniejade , that will be a separate thread for listening tests.

One thing I can see say unequivocally at this point is: Chang Lightspeed power conditioners deserve a lot of respect...especially at their price point. They are a good value.

EDIT PS: As more time passes with the PSA P3 regenerator in-line, there is more separation sonically from other power sources.

Clear as mud?!?

motorstereo

jdjohn wrote: »

@JayCee ... brace yourself. The question is: do I let EMI measurements alone make my decision on power products?

Imo I think that's the very least a power product should do is lower the emi. I tested 3 different pc's that I had here and got rid of one that actually added emi. The other 2 lowered it with expected results of the more expensive one lowering it the most. Testing power cords though ranged from extreme disappointment to astonishment. That's the area where I agree with your comment about the tester "coming straight from hell".

mhardy6647

verb wrote: »

Of course you can have an extension!

Viking64 wrote: »

SCANDAL!!! OUTRAGE!!!

https://youtu.be/o5PDrkzuaFQ

When I'm with you girl I get an extension
And I don't mean Alexander Graham Bell's invention
Switchboard Susan, can we be friends?
After six, at weekends

I'd like to point out that this is on topic -- it will be recalled that the decibel (dB), an important unit of measurement for both acoustics and electronics, is a tenth of a Bel, and the Bel is named after none but Alexander Graham Bel(l).

You could look it up.

I'm a long distance romancer
I keep on trying till I get an answer
Gimme gimme one more chance
She's a greater little operator

She's a greater little operator

Hey babe, you're number's great
38-27-38
Oh you bring a smile to my dial
Oh you're great, operator's great

(plus, it's a great song...)

verb

JayCee wrote: »

CPT, ie. Underwood Hifi/Walter Liederman, has a product called Deep Core. Was created by the previous owner of CPT but had major problems smoking gear. Long story but that's all been worked out and Walter now stands behind/owns CPT.

Deep Core is supposed to tackle EMI, RFI, DC and is billed as the companion to the 1800. It's currently on the perpetual "on sale" train Underwood is known for. I've contemplated getting it but the one caveat to buying "on sale" from Wally is there are no returns (eval periods) if not purchased at list price.

https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/deepcore-1800

The techno jargon on the website is a bit fuzzy convincing me it works and it's hard to find any reviews of the product so am on the fence. I may just call him to discuss further as this weekend is Underwood's President's Day sale and I'm close to getting Verbs loaner EMI meter. Decisions, decisions....

IIRC someone here bought one of these and loves it!

JayCee

verb wrote: »

IIRC someone here bought one of these and loves it!

Hmmm. I'll have to search...must've missed it. I spoke w/Walter while he was eating lunch in Maui. LOL. Took my order from his table. He's definitely done well and makes no apologies for doing so. Should've asked him what the catch of the day was.

Should ship o/a Monday and I'll have it midweek. Will give me a few weeks of play time before the EMI meter arrives. The CPT 1800 I purchased last year 100% works as advertised and I love it. Deep Core was designed as a companion piece. Not sure how much I'll gain but I'm curious enough to bite. I like the power regenerators but have gone the passive approach. I'd like to have something that performs as advertised but won't require recapping in the future.

jdjohn

The tester is now on its way to @tratliff . Thanks again to @verb for setting up this demo tour...and allowing my time extension

jdjohn

Okay, here are my final measurement results, taken from three different outlets, utilizing products as shown.


Regarding the locations, it may be of interest to note that (as numbered) these progress further away from the control panel. #1 is literally on the other side of the wall from the panel. #2 is about 10ft away as the crow flies (probably 20ft of cable run). #3 is in an upstairs bedroom.

Obviously some strange anomalies occurring, with the best/lowest, end-results (measured from power products) coming from the 'noisiest' location. To put a finer point on it: location #3, with 975mV straight from the outlet, came down below 100 when using the power products. Also interesting to see that the PP9000 consistently measured better than (or equal to) the new P3. And, the CLS beat them all for this test. SMH

I can't help but wonder if location #3, being furthest from the panel, is most easily 'cleaned'. #1 & #2, being closer to the panel, might be more stubborn? I can't say conclusively...just conjecture.

Clearly, I was not able to get into the 'No Concern' level of <60, but luckily never into the 'Severe Concern' level >500 with a power product in place.

Anyway, an interesting experiment to be sure, and thanks again to verb!

JayCee

@jdjohn, excellent breakdown and comments. Interesting, indeed. After tabulating your results do they confirm what you hear?

I don't remember coming across CLS products in the past. Appears to be a passive device?...which is what I'm interested in. Spent time reading on their tech and found this tidbit:

https://www.changlightspeed.com/learn-more

"Lightspeed Powerline filters are unique in their ability to effectively block voltage spikes and RFI/EMI without the use of any inductive coils. In addition to preserving your investment by protecting your delicate circuitry, Lightspeed Powerline filters enhance system performance. Freed from a coil's leaden effects, Lightspeed meets moment-to-moment current demands without hesitation.

Audiophiles benefit from increased spaciousness, transient resolution and dynamic contrast. Videophiles enjoy more stable images, better color saturation and fewer noise-induced artifacts. Home theater aficionados enjoy improvements in every operating parameter. Lightspeed users report the following performance enhancements:

Improved musicality
Deeper and wider soundstaging
More precise focusing
Improved transient resolution
Greater dynamic contrast
Extended frequency response
Improved video clarity, sharpness and color saturation
Improved performance of electrostatic loudspeakers"

My CPT EQUI=CORE 1800 balanced power conditioner uses a big a$$ coil. Not exactly sure what's in the guts of the Deep Core I ordered but will pop the hood when I get it. Deep Core's even more relevant to this test as it's specifically designed to target EMI, RFI, etc. Since I'll have 2 separate components I'll be able to conduct measurements on each piece of the puzzle.

Not surprised w/the P3 results; I've read very positive reviews on the PSA regenerators. I can't find the CLS-6400 on the CLS website. Is it an older model? How does it compare in price to the P3? Wonder how it would fare a step up from Steller to the Perfectwave offerings? EDIT TO ADD: the P3 at location 2 appears to be an anomaly compared to the wall. Perhaps it was the time of day or other influencing factors; heater running, microwave, UFO?

As you stated before...the measurements might not tell the entire story. I'm keeping an open mind and will treat the EMI meter results as another data point. Hopefully, I'll see some sort of correlation to what I hear. But, bottom line with respect to conditioning, I either hear a positive difference or I don't. Nothing's staying in my system unless it's for the better.

pitdogg2

CLS -6400 is a discontinued model from 1999 according to my research. Looks like the CLS 309-509 are similar to the CLS-6400

JayCee

pitdogg2 wrote: »

CLS -6400 is a discontinued model from 1999 according to my research. Looks like the CLS 309-509 are similar to the CLS-6400

Thanks. Older than I would've guessed. Wonder if they've made major improvements in 20+ years.

jdjohn

Hi @JayCee . pitdogg is correct that the CLS-6400 is an older model, and I agree that the 309/509 are the most similar current models. Actually, I can't figure out the difference between the 309 & 509. One difference compared to the old 6400 model is that the old model has the power cord hard-wired, and the current ones have an IEC socket.

Yes, these are passive devices, and as you read, no inductors or transformers are used in them, which means they are not current-restrictive like some other products.

I'm glad they finally updated their website. The older version had some rather 'cartoonish' images to help explain their technology, which sometimes made me question the products. But once I tried one, I didn't care about the cartoons. I paid somewhere in the $300-400 range for my 6400s a few years ago since they were several years old at that point. Looks like a new 309 sells for $645 at thecableco.com , so quite a bit cheaper than a new P3! Both products have 6 sockets.

As far as listening results, I still need to experiment more in order to make a hard determination of how it compares to the P3. I use one CLS for my side/test system, but do have a second one that I can work into my main system, and try to do some listening tests between it and the P3. As I'm sure you know, it can be difficult conducting these types of tests due to 1) time and effort of swapping power supplies, and 2) auditory memory is rather short.

Having started with a Chang Lightspeed as my first foray into power conditioning, I can honestly say it impressed me when I first used it...and I had no good reason to move on from it. But as often happens, upgraditis hit me, which is why I decided to try the PSA products. The CLS are rather unassuming in appearance, and perhaps I thought I needed more bling Or...I wanted something to match my other PSA gear. I see that you can relate to the PSA 'thing'

JayCee

Thanks for the details. Yes, I'm a PS Audio fan. The Perfectwave (or similar products...Niagra, etc) are most likely what I should be looking at but I'm having fun playing around on the cheap. At heart, I'm always looking for price vs performance, but will pay more for something if I've thoroughly vetted it and am looking to keep very long term. The Directstream DAC and BHK stack are examples but I purchased at steep discounts vs MSRP. Generally speaking, those days for PSA equipment are over.

Back to the conditioners...compared to the 2 CPT products I have/will have, the CLS 309 is much cheaper and an all in one offering. If you don't mind me asking, where are you located? I'm on the east side of WA State. Would be sweet if we were close enough to do a shootout.

motorstereo

I can't help but wonder if location #3, being furthest from the panel, is most easily 'cleaned'. #1 & #2, being closer to the panel, might be more stubborn? I can't say conclusively...just conjecture.

I'm betting 1 and 2 are on the opposite 120 leg of 3. In my case I have one very noisy leg and 1 quiet leg. I have my dedicated lines just a couple feet from the panel and I've had them as low as 11. I think if anything the lines should be quieter when they're closer to the panel as there's less line to pick up interference.

jdjohn

@motorstereo Interesting since 1 & 3 are the two noisiest at the wall.

@JayCee I'm in Nashville, TN, so just a day trip!

ken brydson

tratliff

I received the EMI meter from @jdjohn this morning. I had to give it a try here at the office. Outlet right near my desk was reading 165.

I'll put together a test plan and start testing in my stereo room this evening.

Thanks @verb for allowing us to borrow this.

verb

You're welcome sir! @GlennDog you're next!

tratliff

Gave it a quick check on one of my dedicated lines when I walked in and thought great it was showing 20.

Didn't check any others and went to have dinner. Came back after dinner to check the same outlet and it was up to 760. I thought what the hell.

Checked all lines I was planning to check and they were all very high. Average 700. And the shared circuit was 1100.

Started to check what was powered up in the house. Noticed the heater was on. Turned it off. Now the highest on any of my dedicated lines is 27. And 42 on the shared circuit in the room.

Anybody else notice anything like this?

I will capture numbers with both the heater on and off and share results.

verb

Interesting. Electric heater, or gas furnace?

tratliff

verb wrote: »

Interesting. Electric heater, or gas furnace?

Heat pump - electric.

verb

Noise coming from the air handler's fan motor? Just speculating.

tratliff

verb wrote: »

Noise coming from the air handler's fan motor? Just speculating.

That seems very possible but not sure how to track it to the motor.

Going to check how the breakers for all are configured. All my audio equipment is in a sub panel. Not sure how the a/c is aligned with the sub panel. Just a thought.

jdjohn

I wondered the same thing - about the air-handler being on/off - but could never get conclusive results. Actually, my quietest outlet was on the other side of the wall from my air handler...and the EMI measurements didn't seem to vary much whether the handler was on or off. Curious to hear tratliff's results.