Power Line EMI Meter - Alpha Labs (Demo Program)

verb

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Interested in the Shunyata outcome...

I may or may not have a vested interest in that.

Ha! Oh yeah, a Shunyata upstairs too in the spare room!

verb

Viking64 wrote: »

verb wrote: »

I have a Furman and a Shunyata down there!

That sounds obscene.

Lot's of power conditioner debauchery in Verb's house!

pitdogg2

verb wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Interested in the Shunyata outcome...

I may or may not have a vested interest in that.

Ha! Oh yeah, a Shunyata upstairs too in the spare room!

Clarifying Hydra8

verb

Very good - you have a great memory! Along with the user's manual you gave me!

verb

So this is interesting. Super clean power upstairs in the spare room. Nothing running except the rig and ceiling light.

Now checking the Shunyata Hydra 8, with the rig still running. No change. Interesting for sure.

Can't clean already clean power? Interesting. As mentioned previously, EMI, although a biggie, is not the only factor when it come to power conditioning.

It would certainly be interesting to bring the Hydra8 down into the office, and swap it out with the WW Spaceport.

VR3

That is odd... Must be the lead lining

erniejade

So maybe the computer and florescent lights is causing the issue in the other room?

verb

erniejade wrote: »

So maybe the computer and florescent lights is causing the issue in the other room?

Not sure, but will track down the circuit, and see what else is connected to the office on the main floor. After that, isolate the components one by one.
So far, this tool IMO is very helpful to get an idea of what the power signature looks like in the house.

erniejade

Maybe turn the florescent light off unplug the computer and see if it changes. From what you described between the two rooms, they seem to be the biggest difference.

motorstereo

I've had ps noise harvesters and quiet lines add emi in some situations where the reading is already low. I also have a Furutech flux 50 that does the same thing. But if the line is really dirty the Furutech does an amazing job of cleaning it up and dropping the numbers as much and in some cases more than a good pc.

The lowest reading I've seen thus far is a steady 11 on my Furman pc on TG morning. When it's low like that the noise harvestors all stop blinking and the quiet lines will almost double that low number.
I'm wondering if anyone tested any aftermarket power cords yet?

joecoulson

Let me rephrase for my friend Drew

I’m looking forward to his update as he has the new AQ 1200 Niagara in his system.

Whenever he has time.

verb

verb wrote: »

So this is interesting. Super clean power upstairs in the spare room. Nothing running except the rig and ceiling light.

Now checking the Shunyata Hydra 8, with the rig still running. No change. Interesting for sure.

Can't clean already clean power? Interesting. As mentioned previously, EMI, although a biggie, is not the only factor when it come to power conditioning.

It would certainly be interesting to bring the Hydra8 down into the office, and swap it out with the WW Spaceport.

So @Clipdat advised me that perhaps the Shunyata is cleaning the circuit both ways, as he experienced with his power conditioner recently. So I'm gonna try it. Unplug the Shunyata from the wall, and do before and after measurements.
Fun did I say? For sure! I love test data!

erniejade

I believe what Drew told you. One of the MIT filters i have actually is supposed to do that. As long as its plugged into the same set of outlets, its supposed to filter noise. I imagine other filters could work the same way.

https://mitcables.com/product/predator-3-ac-plug-in-noise-trap/

motorstereo

FWIW this adapter is all that's needed to test those aftermarket cords. I've had a few surprises and I'd be interested to see if anyone else does to

mhardy6647

so.... what are the numbers on the display of this gizmo and what is the proportionality constant (or are they linear?) with respect to reality?

I see stuff like this and I remember an old, old episode of All in the Family, when Archie was taken by some schmoe using a light meter to indicate how badly insulated his windows were.

Just thinkin' out loud here (OK -- technically, just thinkin' with my fingers, as usual)... but ever curious, ever skeptical*, and always wantin' to learn new stuffs.

The 21st Century is a funny time. We buy stuff that generates tonnes of dirty, broad-band RFI hash (switch-mode power supplies, switching amplifiers, LEDs running off AC, and high-speed microprocessor based gizmos) then we buy more stuff to suppress the trash they generate. Capital capitalism -- reminds me of (self-appointed) Dr. T. S. Geisel's story The Sneetches.




_____________
* and sometimes cynical

erniejade

verb wrote: »

Interesting excerpt from the owner's manual. Gives some guidelines as to what a good value is or not.

@mhardy6647

verb

So I'm still getting my learning on about EMI, but here was a good introduction for me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_interference

Clipdat

My time spent with the AlphaLab EMI meter was incredibly insightful! I love things like this that display a measurement in real-time, and also represent that measurement audibly.

I took measurements several times a day over the course of the two weeks I had the meter. I quickly realized that determining reliable patterns of what the noise level was going to be at a given time of day was nearly impossible.

For example, sometimes in the middle of the day on a weekend I'd see levels below 100. Other times around that same time of day, they would be between 200-400. Furthering this pattern of unpredictability, I took a few a measurements in the evening after 11:30pm and it resulted in a reading of ~430. That was definitely not what I expected to see at that hour. Then the next evening at midnight I took a measurement from the same outlet and it was at 42.

These results demonstrated the unpredictable nature of noise on a shared power grid, especially in an apartment environment. One thing that did seem somewhat constant was that if my downstairs neighbor was home, the numbers would typically be higher, but not always.

Going back to the meter's speaker for a moment, it was very interesting how you could hear different types of electrical noise on the line. At times I could actually hear what I perceived as some device starting and then stopping a few seconds later. Sometimes the sound would phase and modulate slightly, similar to the effect of trying to tune in an AM radio station. Other times it would seem to have a slight pattern to the static, or a static blip when dropping to 117v and then going back up to 118v. Dave's photos show 120v and 121v, but in my experience it was almost always 118v or 119v. I don't think I ever saw it actually display 120v.

Let's take a look at some of the different circuits that I measured at roughly 2pm on a weekday:

Dining room: 45
Kitchen: 39
Bathroom: 205
Living room: 255
Living room media center power strip (TV powered off, cable box, receiver powered off, etc): 980
Living room computer power strip (Desktop PC turned on, cable modem, powered speakers idling, etc): 1200
This number would change when doing any activity on the PC, for example if I dragged around a window, it would fluctuate up to 1500 or so. If I launched a full screen game that utilized the graphics card, the number went to 2000+, it was actually beyond the scope of what it could measure and it just said something like "2+"

Taking a look at the bedroom circuit where my stereo system is:

Outlet that the stereo is plugged in to, top empty plug: 41
With PS Audio Dectet turned on: 24

One of the unused outlets in the room, Dectet turned on: 27

The outlets on the PS Audio Dectet itself, gear turned off:
High Current: 45
Bank 1: 55
Bank 2: 56

So, interestingly, the Dectet's own outlets were reading higher than the unused outlet on the same wall palate, as well as the other outlets in the room on the same circuit.

It was interesting to turn on a Class D integrated and watch the number rise by 15-20. This confirms what I've seen in Shunyata's videos/literature about noise being put back into the line from attached gear, and how they strive to address that in their products.

Another interesting observation was that when powering on the Class D integrated, and having the meter plugged into the "Bank 2" outlets that are supposed to be "isolated", the reading still increased. So that made me question the efficacy of separating analog gear from digital gear on the different banks, if it's all connected anyway.

Clipdat

So after getting a lot of samples of the various numerical representations of the noise on the line, I began the difficult part of thinking about what it means in terms of system performance. This is where things got difficult and I started to become unsure of what all this data meant.

For example there were times that my system sounded incredible to me, and I took a reading from the Dectet and it was something high like 470. Other times the system was again sounding good, and the reading was lower, around 110.

So, I'm not really sure what to interpret from those results. It's possible that as long as you have a dedicated 20a line(s) as I do in my various rooms, that you're in the clear. For example, I certainly wouldn't want to have my stereo on the same circuit as my gaming PC that just idling causes the reading to be 1200.

After the first week with the meter, I swapped out the PS Audio Dectet for the Audioquest Niagara 1200 and took more measurements. I noticed similar behavior with the Audioquest. The numbers from the unused plug on the wall outlet would be about 115 with it off, and then when switching it on, they'd drop to about 90. Measurements from the AQ's outlets were about the same, typically hovering in the 90s.

However, the performance of the Audioquest conditioner was certainly NOT the same as the Dectet. It was dramatically better in every way. I touched on some of this in another thread, but basically I noticed a lower noise floor, wider stereo image, less harshness and brightness in the treble, and improved coherency.

In a way, I'd say this shows that like measurements for our components, the EMI measurements may not always tell the whole story about how your system will sound.

Overall, I had a great time with this demo and recommend this meter for anyone looking to gain some insight into their power situation, or to demonstrate the importance of a dedicated 20a line for their stereo.

joecoulson

Clipdat wrote: »

In a way, I'd say this shows that like measurements for our components, the EMI measurements may not always tell the whole story about how your system will sound.
.

Yes! Great statement. Couldn’t agree more.

And Thank You for the in depth review

EndersShadow

Pardon my ignorance, but does this just plug into an outlet like a normal piece of gear, or does it have probes?

delkal

Clipdat wrote: »

Taking a look at the bedroom circuit where my stereo system is:

Outlet that the stereo is plugged in to, top empty plug: 41
With PS Audio Dectet turned on: 24

The outlets on the PS Audio Dectet itself, gear turned off:
High Current: 45
Bank 1: 55
Bank 2: 56

So, interestingly, the Dectet's own outlets were reading higher than the unused outlet on the same wall palate, as well as the other outlets in the room on the same circuit.

Clipdat wrote: »

After the first week with the meter, I swapped out the PS Audio Dectet for the Audioquest Niagara 1200 and took more measurements. I noticed similar behavior with the Audioquest. The numbers from the unused plug on the wall outlet would be about 115 with it off, and then when switching it on, they'd drop to about 90. Measurements from the AQ's outlets were about the same, typically hovering in the 90s.

This is interesting..........It doesn't seem like either of the power centers are filtering out any of the RFI interference!

Are they just expensive power strips?

GlennDog

In Drew’s case, when you’re on a really really shared service (an apartment-like setting where most likely one large incoming service line feeds an entire building) the need for a regenerator can help tremendously . . . Just my $0.02

mhardy6647

delkal wrote: »

Clipdat wrote: »

Taking a look at the bedroom circuit where my stereo system is:

Outlet that the stereo is plugged in to, top empty plug: 41
With PS Audio Dectet turned on: 24

The outlets on the PS Audio Dectet itself, gear turned off:
High Current: 45
Bank 1: 55
Bank 2: 56

So, interestingly, the Dectet's own outlets were reading higher than the unused outlet on the same wall palate, as well as the other outlets in the room on the same circuit.

Clipdat wrote: »

After the first week with the meter, I swapped out the PS Audio Dectet for the Audioquest Niagara 1200 and took more measurements. I noticed similar behavior with the Audioquest. The numbers from the unused plug on the wall outlet would be about 115 with it off, and then when switching it on, they'd drop to about 90. Measurements from the AQ's outlets were about the same, typically hovering in the 90s.

This is interesting..........It doesn't seem like either of the power centers are filtering out any of the RFI interference!

Are they just expensive power strips?

I think you'd need to know more about the nature of the noise to answer your question(s). I.e., don't throw your power conditioners under the bus a priori just because a little black box shows you a number (IMO, of course).

This is the skeptical worldview of a guy who has made a living for nigh-on four decades as an analytical scientist.

Clipdat

EndersShadow wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but does this just plug into an outlet like a normal piece of gear, or does it have probes?

It simply plugs into an outlet and uses a detachable cable that looks like this:

verb

Thanks for sharing your results Drew! Very interesting for sure. One take away for me is that there are many contributors to noise in the system, different flavors of power conditioners, and the obvious benefit of having a dedicated line for your rig.

But also, IMO, EMI is a contributor to noise. This device allows you to measure it and identify areas of improvement. That’s what I like about it. Without it, you’re resigned to trial and error.

Is it the final answer? Of course not. As always, let your ears be the judge.

EndersShadow

Clipdat wrote: »

EndersShadow wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but does this just plug into an outlet like a normal piece of gear, or does it have probes?

It simply plugs into an outlet and uses a detachable cable that looks like this:

Wow..... for some reason I thought you need probes or something stupid like that....

Any chance I could get in on the demo then? I'm curious how my loft setup (using outlets on a shared circuit) compares to my family room (3 dedicated circuits, on the other side of the breaker box than the loft).

Clipdat

delkal wrote: »

Are they just expensive power strips?

I don't think so. Compare the numbers of 80-100 on the AQ, vs 980 on my $10 media center power strip. Albeit with different gear connected, but the AVR and TV on the media center power strip weren't even powered on and it was still reading nearly 1000.

delkal

Clipdat wrote: »

delkal wrote: »

Are they just expensive power strips?

I don't think so. Compare the numbers of 80-100 on the AQ, vs 980 on my $10 media center power strip. Albeit with different gear connected, but the AVR and TV on the media center power strip weren't even powered on and it was still reading nearly 1000.

I would not be concerned with numbers around 50. Close enough. But if I read correctly you said you were getting numbers around 470 directly from the Dectet at times. That would have to make me wonder.......

Just for fun can you try plugging in your power conditioners to the noisy computer strip? If these conditioners do anything the number coming from the power out should be well under 1000.

motorstereo

^^^^^^^^Now that's a pretty big difference between those 2 units. Were they getting power from the same outlet for the comparison?