Let's Talk About Power Conditioners

BlueFox

Good, clean power makes a big improvement to enjoying the music. I listen to my system for hours at a stretch, and never tire of it. Since I retired at the end of April I have the time, and I will be listening tonight until sunrise tomorrow. Couldn’t do that if it didn’t sound so freaking good.

kevhed72

What effect....if any....would proper grounding of your panel have on your power and noise floor? I would bet my retirement my house wasn't done properly. I believe the ground rod is supposed to go down 8 ft....and I thought I read somewhere 2 or 3 rods are preferred(?)

delkal

I am beginning to wonder how much "power conditioning" improves sound vs just having an "audiophile" grade power strip. I have been making some power cords with mil -spec 12 ga silver plated teflon hookup wire, braided to reduce EMI, coupled with some cheaper (but pure copper) plugs. Unfortunately I realized I don't have enough receptacles to plug all of my shiny new cords into! My amp is plugged directly into the wall (but it is hard wired so no "upgraded power cord" there). The preamp and CD player I made the powercords for are just plugged into a cheap Monster power conditioner (yes, I know it is Monster but I got it as part of a system from Craiglist so it was basically free).

I am thinking about now making a power strip with the same style power cord (mil-spec wire and plugs) then internally wiring it using hospital grade receptacles. Would making one quality power strip be a better option than having upgraded power cords and plugging them all into a crappy power conditioner.

joecoulson

Probably yes. But don’t confuse that with the difference one of the more expensive highly regarded PC’s on here would make.

pitdogg2

kevhed72 wrote: »

What effect....if any....would proper grounding of your panel have on your power and noise floor? I would bet my retirement my house wasn't done properly. I believe the ground rod is supposed to go down 8 ft....and I thought I read somewhere 2 or 3 rods are preferred(?)

The ground rod needs to go down far into the constant moist ground to be effective. Multiple grounds can create different ground potentials and that can cause problems. Around my area that multiple GR's would be a huge no no to code.

BlueFox

BlueFox wrote: »

Good, clean power makes a big improvement to enjoying the music. I listen to my system for hours at a stretch, and never tire of it. Since I retired at the end of April I have the time, and I will be listening tonight until sunrise tomorrow. Couldn’t do that if it didn’t sound so freaking good.

Sharks win game 2. Now I definitely will be up all night listening to tunes with good, clean power.

F1nut

pitdogg2 wrote: »

kevhed72 wrote: »

What effect....if any....would proper grounding of your panel have on your power and noise floor? I would bet my retirement my house wasn't done properly. I believe the ground rod is supposed to go down 8 ft....and I thought I read somewhere 2 or 3 rods are preferred(?)

The ground rod needs to go down far into the constant moist ground to be effective. Multiple grounds can create different ground potentials and that can cause problems. Around my area that multiple GR's would be a huge no no to code.

Bingo!!!

Clipdat

Jesse, what's your approach to power in your systems?

kharp1

Clipdat wrote: »

Jesse, what's your approach to power in your systems?

This candidate is on public record, sir, as being for it.

DaveHo

Nvrmind

JayCee

....

Clipdat

kharp1 wrote: »

This candidate is on public record, sir, as being for it.

Yeah, I was just hoping to know what actual product(s) he uses.

JayCee

Edit...DaveHo removed his question but hopefully he doesn't mind me summarizing to add context to this reply as I didn't quote it and he changed his post prior to my post. Dave asked why the $2K MSRP based on what he saw in my guts shot posted above...

@DaveHo, good question. What I've read says approx $300-500 in parts. It's a balanced transformer and the premise of the design. Reportedly there was a year+ of research and 11 different designs to arrive at the final product. My guess, like anything, cost is partly based on research, assembly and....drum roll please....what the market will pay. I didn't pay MSRP....paid $1399 shipped and it included a "$399 Free Cable". Very nice "looking" cable, significantly larger and very pretty vs. stock, but, I've made very good cables for significantly less that also look nice. Again, cost is subjective after you add research, materials, performance and perceived value.

I purchased the 1800 based on perceived value after my own due diligence with respect to cost vs performance claim. I could've purchased "a big **** transformer" and DIY'd it but I'm not an EE and have no basis to experiment. Especially when it has to do with power. Crossovers, caps, soldering...no problem, but I'm not into blowing my gear up or worse.

The original design had the outlets wired in series vs. parallel and thinner gauge wire. Some DIYers changed the configuration...better outlets, increased the wire size and used the push type connectors for ease of assembly (vs. terminating wire and mounting to a single post). Resulted in positive results.

The current version, as of last month, incorporated these changes...minus "better" outlets. I was offered upgraded outlets and a bit longer delivery time for $200. Going forward, I can do that myself if I feel the need.

Not to add to the drama but for historical perspective it's worth noting....prior to last month there was a lot of controversy with the owner of Core Power Technologies, his business dealings and health issues. I only mention this because if anyone's reading this and does further research they might get caught up in the drama that ensued. I was reading through posts that started in 2016 and they had my attention with respect to Equicore products. It wasn't until 2 days of reading through years of posts that I discovered the turmoil with the company.

End result is Walter Liederman, Underwood HiFi, stepped in and purchased the inventory, the rights to the product and made the changes to the 1800 that I mentioned above. I've purchased from Walter in the past and, based on my research, he has a very good reputation.

I love my PS Audio gear but can't bring myself to spend $5K+ for the Perfectwave P series. The Equicore is my budget solution in pursuit of mo better sound. I will post listening impressions after a bit more time, but, suffice to say, I'm not displeased after my first day with it.

DaveHo

Thanks for the details. I was hoping nobody saw my original post as it seemed like a bit of a bash which wasn't cool on my part. Looks like I was too slow.

I guess when I see a product sold as a power conditioner/suppressor I expect to see more to the guts than a transformer. If it does what it advertises & you like the sound, rock on.

JayCee

DaveHo wrote: »

Thanks for the details. I was hoping nobody saw my original post as it seemed like a bit of a bash which wasn't cool on my part. Looks like I was too slow.

I guess when I see a product sold as a power conditioner/suppressor I expect to see more to the guts than a transformer. If it does what it advertises & you like the sound, rock on.

No problem, I appreciate the response. I knew there would be some sort of response but the facts are what they are....ie. the build. Can't say my gut reaction is much different than yours and, wholeheartedly agree, the devil is in the details. It's the end result (sound) that will be the deciding factor.

Thanks again for the reply. Alles klar as my Deutsch friends say.😉👍

kharp1

We also need to consider that when we look at a product and see a collection of parts that we can dissect by price, we don't consider the research and all the product burnt through to get to the end result, plus, warranty costs are built in to the final price.

joecoulson

I and I will echo the sentiments regarding Walter, stand up guy offering great prices on great gear. I too questioned the guts of that PC but if Walter believes in it, it must do something great.
Let us know how it performs after some break in time.

Clipdat

Thanks for the photos, info, and thoughts so far @JayCee! Looking forward to hearing more about it's performance after you spend a few weeks with it.

pitdogg2

Well if it sucks maybe it would make a nice 1800va Dreadnought.....








Lol

Just kidding

JayCee

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Well if it sucks maybe it would make a nice 1800va Dreadnought.....

Lol

Just kidding

Actually, that thought did cross my mind. Part of why I peeked inside was because of this.

Buried somewhere in one of the early Dreadnought threads, when discussing w/the manufacturer re. the provenience of said inductor and application to SDA's, it was stated the 1000VA was designed for an audio company for use in a proprietary product. Wouldn't reveal who it was for and, if I remember correctly, there are no revealing details on the 1000VA.

Hmmmmm....nope, looks nothing like our beloved 1000VA. Appear to be extra windings spaced around the inductor. There are #'s on the label pics I posted above but part of it is obscured. I searched the net for what I could make out but no hits. Will do a bit more disection to uncover the label at a later date. Curious minds want to know.....

pitdogg2

Yea we both know that it takes a special torrid for the Dreadnought.
Good luck with the research.

motorstereo

Another tidbit of information I've discovered with my emi measuring tool. 8' modern fluorescent light fixtures are by far the noisiest components I've measured thus far. They're much noisier than dimmer switch controlled led lighting which are now second on the list. Strangely the older 8' and 4' light fluorescent fixtures do not add any additional noise. My guess is it's due to the lighter weight (cheaper) transformers in the new lighting?

verb

joecoulson wrote: »

If I’m being honest, although it started with the love and passion of music in its purest form, it has at times become a chase of gear as a priority. I have now come to a point where I have to slow down and start enjoying more tunes as my system does sound really good to me and I need to be grateful for that.

Good advice Joe. Now if only to heed it! I'm speaking of myself, of course!

pitdogg2

motorstereo wrote: »

My guess is it's due to the lighter weight (cheaper) transformers in the new lighting?

Ding ding ding....
Them old PCB filled tar filled heavy suckers were good for sumthin..

Most of the newer are switching type power supplies and noisy....

kharp1

We've been switching every light in our plant over to LED. Took down a couple hundred 8ft fluorescents last week, some had been hanging 40 years. Some had extremely heavy ballasts and some weighed next to nothing. I'm glad they're gone, hate those things.

WLDock

JayCee wrote: »

DaveHo wrote: »

Thanks for the details. I was hoping nobody saw my original post as it seemed like a bit of a bash which wasn't cool on my part. Looks like I was too slow.

I guess when I see a product sold as a power conditioner/suppressor I expect to see more to the guts than a transformer. If it does what it advertises & you like the sound, rock on.

No problem, I appreciate the response. I knew there would be some sort of response but the facts are what they are....ie. the build. Can't say my gut reaction is much different than yours and, wholeheartedly agree, the devil is in the details. It's the end result (sound) that will be the deciding factor.

Thanks again for the reply. Alles klar as my Deutsch friends say.😉👍

Balanced power using a Toroidal transformer in a great way to go if one is willing to spend the money. Many recording and mastering studios use the same thing. While $2000 seems like a lot there are others out there for more money. So, the cost is subjective. Keep in mind here are 1200 VA transformers in the $100 range some of the larger, low noise, high efficient ones can cost $200-$700 or more. I'm a DIY type and one can built something like this for much less. Here is a guide using a 2000 VA transformer that cost about $250 back in 2003 at the time of the writing.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/feature-article-isolation-transformer-8-2003.html
The canadian company seems to offer good quality and look to offer solutions:
https://www.plitron.com/custom-toroidal-transformers/power-conditioning-2/



Also, Toroid a USA co. in MD offers some at nice prices.
https://toroid.com/Products/Balanced-Transformers

1000 VA - $531
https://toroid.com/Home/Product-Details/ProductID/32

1500 AV - $578
https://toroid.com/Home/Product-Details/ProductID/33

2000 VA - $872
https://toroid.com/Home/Product-Details/ProductID/34


Also, These guys have some nice offerings that are higher priced but less than the typical audiophile brands.

600 VA - $599
https://power-holdings-inc.com/Keces-BP600-Balanced-Isolation-Power-Conditioner-p137036164

1200 VA - $999
https://power-holdings-inc.com/Keces-BP1200-Balanced-Isolation-Power-Conditioner-p137036175

2400 VA - $1699
https://power-holdings-inc.com/Keces-BP2400-Balanced-Isolation-Power-Conditioner-p137036186

pitdogg2

Excuse my ignorance. What advantage is there in the higher torrid sizes. In other words what does going from 1200va to the 2400va or larger? Is that just the ability to add more outlets? Or is there an advantage with large power hungry power amps.
I think I know the answer just checking to see if my thinking is correct.

WLDock

The beer analogy of power factor is easy to understand. VA is the apparent power and Watts are the real power. The larger rating means larger output capability. So for a given voltage, the capacity is limited by the current rating.

120V x 5 Amps = 600 (Macbook, PC speakers, keyboard)
120V x 10 Amps = 1200 (Small integrated, Streamer)
120V x 15 Amps = 1800 (HT AVR, Blu-Ray, subs, HDTV)
120V x 20 Amps = 2400 (Hi End class-A Preamp, DAC, streamer, high amp monoblocks)

verb

pitdogg2 wrote: »

I use the Hydra8 and I think it made a difference. That is sweet Rich, the made some good gear from what I remember.

I remember you snagged that one Ivan! I've been looking for one too!

joecoulson

Verb. AQ Niagara FTW