Let's Talk About Power Conditioners

135

Comments

  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,194
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I use the Hydra8 and I think it made a difference. That is sweet Rich, the made some good gear from what I remember.

    The Hydra8 is a very nice unit. I had the original Shunyata Hydra. Aaron has it now.

    Not mine, snagged this from the web. It is a very handsome thing. erdt7qoo46ao.png


    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,697
    Love that logo Rich

    Drew, Ivan should be able to tell you the differences as it relates to the ps8
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,876
    Yea mine don't look like that :) mine is the original (I believe) with the diamond on the front.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 7,279
    edited May 11
    Seems to me like there's three main approaches to power.

    1.) Unrestricted power strips with nothing current limiting in the signal path, the design focus being on high quality materials like beryllium/copper outlets and thick gauge OFC wiring.

    2.) Conditioning. Every manufacturer seems to have an approach that they feel works best. Lots of different approaches here from tried and true filters, to isolation transformers. Because there's so many options, it's hard to discern if one has any "obvious" benefit over another.

    3.) Regernation. PS Audio seems to be the only player in this game, and again, they feel their approach is the best. I believe their older Power Plants had "filtering/conditioning" built in, whereas the newer ones are strictly regenerators.

    As I read more and more about the various approaches, I struggle to determine if one approach is "better" than another. A common and recurring trend that I notice is proponents of one method criticizing another by saying it "squashes or limits dynamics". I'm not sure I've ever experienced this phenomenon with my system and the $500 PS Audio Dectet that I'm using. But perhaps it's one of those things where you don't know it's happening, until it's not.

    I'm quickly reaching the conclusion that the only way to be certain of what approach works best in your system, is to try out each of them and see what sounds best to your ears.

    I'd love to do a 4 way shootout between the following:

    PS Audio Stellar Power Plant 3 (regenerator) ($2,200)

    Shunyata Venon PS8 power strip with their Delta NR cable (conditioning) and Venom Defender (in-line surge protection) ($1,600)

    Cardas Nautilus power strip (minimalist/direct) with their Clear Beyond cable ($2,100)

    Audioquest Niagara 1200 (conditioner) with their Thunder cable ($1,725)


    I feel that all of the above are in the same relative price bracket, with the PS Audio coming in at a slightly higher price, as it's doesn't include an aftermarket cable to plug it in with. Still, I feel like this would be an "equally matched" type of shootout, and would be extremely interesting to figure out which would come out on top.
    "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 12,234
    You can’t make a good decision without understanding the underlying technology. This is a good starting point to learning/understanding what is involved.

    https://shunyata.com/technical-articles/
    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • motorstereomotorstereo Posts: 1,335
    Another tidbit I've recently discovered is that the type of wire coming out of the breaker panel to the gear's receptacles has a dramatic effect on noise reduction. Using 10 gauge multistrand spiral wound wiring as opposed to 12 gauge standard wiring reduces my emi from 450-500 emi to 80-100 emi. When that happens at the receptacle the conditioner has less work to do to begin with and is able to reduce what little noise there is left even further. Perhaps my new totl furman unit could similarly reduce those numbers that much but I have my doubts.
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 12,234
    Good point. My three dedicated 20 amp lines are 10 gauge, although typical solid copper wiring.
    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,410
    Another tidbit I've recently discovered is that the type of wire coming out of the breaker panel to the gear's receptacles has a dramatic effect on noise reduction. Using 10 gauge multistrand spiral wound wiring as opposed to 12 gauge standard wiring reduces my emi from 450-500 emi to 80-100 emi. When that happens at the receptacle the conditioner has less work to do to begin with and is able to reduce what little noise there is left even further. Perhaps my new totl furman unit could similarly reduce those numbers that much but I have my doubts.

    And the price of my dedicated circuits keep going up! :)
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII Upgraded by Rich Brkich Pre
    Butler Audio TBD 2250 Amp
    PS Audio DirectStream DAC and MemoryPlayer Transport
    LSA-1 Statement
    SVS SB4000 & SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

    Backup Gear:
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
  • motorstereomotorstereo Posts: 1,335
    kharp1 wrote: »
    Another tidbit I've recently discovered is that the type of wire coming out of the breaker panel to the gear's receptacles has a dramatic effect on noise reduction. Using 10 gauge multistrand spiral wound wiring as opposed to 12 gauge standard wiring reduces my emi from 450-500 emi to 80-100 emi. When that happens at the receptacle the conditioner has less work to do to begin with and is able to reduce what little noise there is left even further. Perhaps my new totl furman unit could similarly reduce those numbers that much but I have my doubts.

    And the price of my dedicated circuits keep going up! :)

    It's also easy to show the difference to someone that actually cares about such a thing and you could call it "audiophile grade wiring". Mine happened to be left over welder extension cable which doesn't sound as appealing :)
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,697
    edited May 11
    Forgot to post on here, I’m getting the dedicated 20 amp circuit installed next week!!
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • motorstereomotorstereo Posts: 1,335
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Forgot to post on here, I’m getting the dedicated 20 amp circuit installed next week!!

    Cool; I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the new line. Will it be new all the way to the breaker box?
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,697
    Yes. Still have yet to decide on wire but will be a dedicated circuit straight to the panel.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,671
    edited May 11
    Another tidbit I've recently discovered is that the type of wire coming out of the breaker panel to the gear's receptacles has a dramatic effect on noise reduction. Using 10 gauge multistrand spiral wound wiring as opposed to 12 gauge standard wiring reduces my emi from 450-500 emi to 80-100 emi. When that happens at the receptacle the conditioner has less work to do to begin with and is able to reduce what little noise there is left even further. Perhaps my new totl furman unit could similarly reduce those numbers that much but I have my doubts.

    I'm still in the learning stage but here's a few other tidbits I've learned today. I've found that the higher current outlets have less emi which surprised me. I've also found that coiling cords doesn't increase emi which again surprised me. Led dimmer switches are atrociously noisy. And dedicated lines with multi-strand wiring has moved way up my list of importance. Next is to start testing cords. If someone is into this hobby at all this is a must have and fun learning tool.

    It's also easy to show the difference to someone that actually cares about such a thing and you could call it "audiophile grade wiring". Mine happened to be left over welder extension cable which doesn't sound as appealing :)

    OMG, I joined the forum back in '12 and almost kicked out (Maybe it was an initiation ?) in '13 with my questions about this very thing in this thread, page 2, LOL :) : https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/149642/power-cord-burn-in-question/p1

    In the end BlueFox had already updated his wiring before diving into some pretty pricey cords, conditioner. It's really is all that one can do because It's hard to overcome the line issue that some have. OTOH, some have very little issues at all. One conditioner may work better for one but not the other. This is where it should start:
    450px-US_wiring_basement-panel.jpg

    My technical background includes: cable broadcast engineer apprentice, power tool repair, cellular repair, medical, pharmaceutical, and supply automated dispensing repair, gaming repair, UL Inspector, welding repair, and more recent solar inverter repair, tech support, and applications. I have a music background and much experience with the noisy car audio environment. I've installed many sound quality systems for myself and others where noise was ever present and required attention to say the least. Sometimes using the right wire and placement made all the difference in the world.

    My question then, as it is now how does one go about sorting through effective power cables and conditioners, suppressors if the house wires are not dealt with first? Especially if the home has more than average noise and voltage issues! It just did not make sense to me back then. We all know that simply cleaning audio contacts and using deoxidizer like Kontak or DeoxIT can made a different on the audio connections. Maybe, just adding in a hospital grade receptacle and making sure the connections at the panel are tight are enough for many systems. However, as the resolution, detail, and cost of the system goes up wire replacement of the wall wire for the stereo should be considered. Again, results will vary. IMO, if that's worth anything, a balanced power isolation transformer would be the route to try for the most noise challenged and critical systems out there.

    Post edited by WLDock on
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  • delkaldelkal Posts: 608
    Another tidbit I've recently discovered is that the type of wire coming out of the breaker panel to the gear's receptacles has a dramatic effect on noise reduction. Using 10 gauge multistrand spiral wound wiring as opposed to 12 gauge standard wiring reduces my emi from 450-500 emi to 80-100 emi. When that happens at the receptacle the conditioner has less work to do to begin with and is able to reduce what little noise there is left even further. Perhaps my new totl furman unit could similarly reduce those numbers that much but I have my doubts.

    Interesting. Do you think the EMI reduction is mostly due to the stranded construction or is it just because you are using a larger ga wire.

    I have been thinking about making some DIY power cords and read solid core Romex could make a decent cable to experiment with (and Cheap). I was leaning towards 10-12 ga THNN (or stripped Romex) solid core wire, braided. Do you think multistrand spiral wire would be a better choice?
  • motorstereomotorstereo Posts: 1,335
    edited May 11
    delkal wrote: »
    Another tidbit I've recently discovered is that the type of wire coming out of the breaker panel to the gear's receptacles has a dramatic effect on noise reduction. Using 10 gauge multistrand spiral wound wiring as opposed to 12 gauge standard wiring reduces my emi from 450-500 emi to 80-100 emi. When that happens at the receptacle the conditioner has less work to do to begin with and is able to reduce what little noise there is left even further. Perhaps my new totl furman unit could similarly reduce those numbers that much but I have my doubts.

    Interesting. Do you think the EMI reduction is mostly due to the stranded construction or is it just because you are using a larger ga wire.

    I have been thinking about making some DIY power cords and read solid core Romex could make a decent cable to experiment with (and Cheap). I was leaning towards 10-12 ga THNN (or stripped Romex) solid core wire, braided. Do you think multistrand spiral wire would be a better choice?

    I believe it's the multistrand wire. When I recently upgraded to my 3rd 20 amp circuit that was the only change made other than the receptacle and the breaker. I now have 3 20 amp multistrand wired circuits and all 3 consistently read the lowest of any circuits I have. Even with a couple of noise harvestors on other solid wire 15 amp circuits and everything switched off I cannot get less than 400 on the meter ever.
    I would think Romex would be a better choice than standard 12-14 wire and possibly better than the wire I'm using. Sounds like a great reason for someone else to get a tester and see if there's gains to be made with the Romex.
  • gp4jesusgp4jesus Posts: 1,259
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Will are you close to GA?
    I’m VERY close to Athens. Where are you?

    Tony

    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED
    Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro
    Samsung BDP, DirecTV Rcvr, Xbox 360, Dennon LDP, Phillips CD chgr

    Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside; CC outside
    BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside & out
    8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside & out

    LR: tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; M&T - 981
    CC: Rotel RB985 -> tri-amped CSi A6
    5 Audio Pro Subs: 1 B1.39: an Evidence at each corner
    Surrounds: Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3
    Power Conditioning & Distribution:
    3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman Miniport 20s
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,697
    I'm in Buford - close to you
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,410
    delkal wrote: »
    Another tidbit I've recently discovered is that the type of wire coming out of the breaker panel to the gear's receptacles has a dramatic effect on noise reduction. Using 10 gauge multistrand spiral wound wiring as opposed to 12 gauge standard wiring reduces my emi from 450-500 emi to 80-100 emi. When that happens at the receptacle the conditioner has less work to do to begin with and is able to reduce what little noise there is left even further. Perhaps my new totl furman unit could similarly reduce those numbers that much but I have my doubts.

    Interesting. Do you think the EMI reduction is mostly due to the stranded construction or is it just because you are using a larger ga wire.

    I have been thinking about making some DIY power cords and read solid core Romex could make a decent cable to experiment with (and Cheap). I was leaning towards 10-12 ga THNN (or stripped Romex) solid core wire, braided. Do you think multistrand spiral wire would be a better choice?

    I believe it's the multistrand wire. When I recently upgraded to my 3rd 20 amp circuit that was the only change made other than the receptacle and the breaker. I now have 3 20 amp multistrand wired circuits and all 3 consistently read the lowest of any circuits I have. Even with a couple of noise harvestors on other solid wire 15 amp circuits and everything switched off I cannot get less than 400 on the meter ever.
    I would think Romex would be a better choice than standard 12-14 wire and possibly better than the wire I'm using. Sounds like a great reason for someone else to get a tester and see if there's gains to be made with the Romex.

    I would say probably not. Romex is designed for ease of use and cost efficiency. I'm guessing stranded is the better way to go on a dedicated audio circuit. Just raises the cost.
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII Upgraded by Rich Brkich Pre
    Butler Audio TBD 2250 Amp
    PS Audio DirectStream DAC and MemoryPlayer Transport
    LSA-1 Statement
    SVS SB4000 & SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

    Backup Gear:
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,280
    Each one will have its own flavor, design purpose, and technology. I was pleasantly surprised with the Wireworld SpacePort and think it is an undervalued gem, but then again, this is one area I haven't had a bunch of experience with. The Shunyata Ivan has simply didn't work in my system - it made Rosso sound like every other speaker and I hated that - but it did bring several improvements to the sound. The Spaceport let the Rosso's be what they were with perhaps a little less focus on 'audiophile' or 'hifi' characteristics. I suspect the Hydra8 would've been stellar with the Wilson Watt Puppy 5.1 I had for a while.

    I'm obviously no fan of Audioquest, but I do have interest in their power products and how they perform. Entreq is another on my list of interest as well as the PS Audio units a handful of members here use.

    At the high end of this hobby, there is an interesting conversation going on about this exact topic on another forum:

    https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/isolation-transformer-and-balanced-power-versus-ps-audio-regenerator.27941/
  • mrbironmrbiron Posts: 5,148
    DSkip wrote: »

    After reading that, I almost want to move off the grid and burn my system for warmth. I read all 6 pages...
    Zu Audio Omen MK-1B's, Peachtree Decco65, Bryston BDA-2, Cheap TT, PS Audio UPC200, PS Audio AC3's, Zu Mission SC's, HTPC, One, Bottlehead Crack w/Speedball, Senn's MD HD600
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,280
    mrbiron wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »

    After reading that, I almost want to move off the grid and burn my system for warmth. I read all 6 pages...

    Those guys play at serious levels. I feel like a minnow in the ocean over there.
  • HermitismHermitism Posts: 2,596
    Post of the day!
    2.0 - Marantz: PM8005, NA8005 | Polk LSiM703 | PS Audio: Duet, Power Port Classic, PerfectWave AC5 x3 PC | Wireworld Equinox 7 IC | AudioPrism Quietline MkIII x7 | Sanus UF30 | Acoustic Panels, GIK Soffit Traps

    3.1 - Polk: LSiM703, LSiM706c, PSW125 | PS Audio Quintet | VooDoo-Hubbell IG 8300 | Acoustic Panels, Acoustimac Bass Traps

    6.1 - Pioneer Elite SC-05 | Pio BDP-51FD | Polk: RTi8, CSi5, F/Xi3, CSi3 | HSU Research VTF-2 MK4 | PS Audio: Quintet, Power Port Classic | DCF124BW x3 SC | Pangea: AC-9SE x2, 14SE, 14 PC | AQ Chocolate x2 HDMI | M850SW | Acoustic Panels, GIK Soffit Traps
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,280
    Clipdat wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Those guys play at serious levels. I feel like a minnow in the ocean over there.

    Skip, most minnows are freshwater fish, not saltwater.

    So in that case, technically you aren't even swimming in the same body of water as they are.

    Exactly.
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,548
    I think when you are at that level, you stopped listening to music a long time ago 😜
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • kevhed72kevhed72 Posts: 3,774
    VR3 wrote: »
    I think when you are at that level, you stopped listening to music a long time ago 😜
    Great point....at what point does it all become about the gear?!?

  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,410
    kevhed72 wrote: »
    VR3 wrote: »
    I think when you are at that level, you stopped listening to music a long time ago 😜
    Great point....at what point does it all become about the gear?!?

    As with any "thing" in life, there will be those that want to push to the very outer limits, or, dissect down to the smallest molecule because that's how they're wired. You're right, at what point as anal-retentive obsession slid past enjoying a hobby?
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII Upgraded by Rich Brkich Pre
    Butler Audio TBD 2250 Amp
    PS Audio DirectStream DAC and MemoryPlayer Transport
    LSA-1 Statement
    SVS SB4000 & SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

    Backup Gear:
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,697
    If I’m being honest, although it started with the love and passion of music in its purest form, it has at times become a chase of gear as a priority. I have now come to a point where I have to slow down and start enjoying more tunes as my system does sound really good to me and I need to be grateful for that.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • kevhed72kevhed72 Posts: 3,774
    edited May 15
    verb wrote: »
    I have a Furman Elite 15PFI, bought right here on this forum. Used marked can be had under 4 hundie easily.

    However, used ones have risk. Unless you trust the seller, which is implicit here on CP, you may be getting one with issues, or worse. So be cautious.
    I am currently using an APC H15 and looking at that Furman. I wonder how they compare....I think the only difference in the Furman 20 is the 2 high current outlets for amps or subs, which I would probably never use.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 7,279
    "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
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