Any owner updates on Carver Crimson 275 stereo tube power amplifier for 2019?

treitz3

Geographically, I don't think you two are so far apart from each other that a day trip and a hotel stay would be in order if you wanted to hear it yourself, Tony.

Tom

mhardy6647

Interesting speculation Elsewhere about the power amp operating points and bias scheme,for any one who might be curious about such things (albeit, again, strictly speculative)

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/audioholics-on-carver-tube-amps.859958/#post-12507822

FMalitz

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I think it may very well be a good amp, but I also think the lack of foresight in having a plan to keep up with demand in a more organized fashion, combined with slow response to customer needs when things fell short of expectations didn’t do them any favors.

I will always be a huge Carver fan, and I hope they can recover from the botched rollout of what looks to be a fine product.

I believe I addressed most of this in my long-winded post of a couple of days ago. I guess you could say that I botched the rollout because we were selling a handful of amplifiers per month before the 275 was born and I never imagined we would be selling 100 amplifiers a week. You might say I was shortsighted but I'm not clairvoyant. I wonder if any of you could've anticipated this success. I could not. I had no history. When I ran Onkyo, I had to project dealer by dealer monthly for years. My projections were pretty accurate because I had a history. With Yamaha I provided a projection every month for 17 years! They would've kept me that long if the projections were inaccurate. This took me by surprise.

As far as the botched rollout goes, we added dealers, within one hour, in Texas, three in Florida, Milwaukee, Central Illinois, Arizona, Indiana, Indonesia, Australia, Paris, and so forth. Within 60 days, it was the best-selling amplifier in history of any kind. No one sells 100 amplifiers in the first hour. We do the best we could. As a state in my post below, we are now building hundreds in each batch. There selling out as fast as we can make them. Finally on this topic, beginning in 1976, the receiver manufactures introduce new models every other year. In the middle year, so to speak, we introduced a new line of integrated amplifiers so every 12 months something was new. With Yamaha, we introduced the
every single year. Now get this because it's important: at every introduction we receive purchase orders from our dealer network. In every case, with Onkyo, Integra, and Yamaha there were shortages of the new product, sometimes for four months. This happened every single year throughout my career. We went from a two-week waiting period to a five-week waiting period and we're back down to two weeks now. My buddy Sandy Gross went through this with Golden Ear.

Slow response to customer needs is an unfair accusation. I respond the same day the inquiries come in irrespective of my workload. It is possible, that if an inquiry came in on a Friday evening I might not get to it immediately because I finally need a little bit of rest. I think our customer service is the best. How many consumers receive communications from the owner of a company? Try that with Polk.

FMalitz

Magnaryder wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

For the record: I am still looking for a third party 'review' -- a formal review with measurements would be nice, but a long-term assessment by a purchaser (ideally not one of that first 50 'fanatics') would be fine.

Pictures of the innards would be nice to see, too.

There is just so little chatter about these, two months after the sale, to be found on the internet... it's curious.

As one of the (fanatics) I can’t decide if I should be offended, or not. Is my evaluation of less value because Im one of the privileged few who built the 275 under the tutelage of the Master?

ray

Ray, I'm a Gibson guitar fanatic. I'm a Fender guitar fanatic. I'm Fender amplifier fanatic. I've played Chicago blues for 50 years and I'm a fanatic about that. Coming from my heart, with my traditional Outlook, referring to Bob's fan base is fanatics is a deep complement. You sir, have my respect and my appreciation.
Frank

nooshinjohn

I would have seen it coming from a mile away Frank. Bob and I discussed this very thing before he went back into business with the tube amps. His name has value within the audio community, as evidenced by the sales of his EBay amps and the high value of many of his older offerings going back to the early 1970’s.

When the idea to market a tube amp such as this, with Bob’s name value added to it and at a price point that made it affordable for anyone, I knew the demand would be huge, and beyond the capacity to keep up. Bob did not plan for that because he did not want to be a big audio company again. He wanted a hobby to keep him out of trouble.

You are either blind or so focused on your own ego that you could not see the forest for the trees if you did not see the obvious. Based upon our conversation earlier, you have little time for anyone but yourself anyway, so I can understand why you didn’t see it coming.

But what do I know... I’m just a guy that respects Bob’s work, am passionate about the brand, and care about the man himself as a friend. So do hundreds of other guys that have attended things like CarverFest throughout the years. But I guess you are smarter than everybody else in whatever room you walk into....

FMalitz

DSkip wrote: »

Why be offended? The truth is you are a fan of Carver and that is fine, but it doesn't exactly put you in an unbiased scenario, regardless if you yourself are unbiased or not. I deal with this often being a dealer - its hard to talk about products you believe in without sounding like a shill. Its simply put, part of the territory.

Dear Mr. Skip,
I've been fighting this for years. As soon as some people have the Bob Carver name, most especially if they do not understand engineering, he is accused of hyperbole and dishonesty. I've been here for years and have never taken a single dime of income. He's a wonderful partner and a brilliant scientist. Now let's address your statements: I'm the first one to tell people to listen to a product before purchasing. I'm no shill. Since you're a retailer, let's examine the profiles of a handful of our accounts. Please understand that I cannot open as many dealers as I would like because of the product shortage. Once we have a couple hundred amplifiers in stock, I will be adding more accounts.

As I said, we've increased our dealer network significantly but I'd like to give you a few examples of the types of accounts who carry our product: I assume you're familiar, if you're truly a high-end retailer, with Geoff Poor. He's the largest BAT dealer in the country (and a former owner of that company). He's the largest Wilson Audio dealer in the Midwest. He moved the Quad electrostatics out and created the Bob Carver room. He penned the lovely review below (scroll down for a while).

Jim Clark stereo features a $12,000 PS Audio package, was the first dealer to my knowledge to be awarded the new Audio Alchemy line, Thorens turntables and like all of our other dealers offers a money back guarantee not based on cosmetics, not based on the Bob Carver name, but based on sound. His reputation is impeccable.

The Audio Emporium in Milwaukee Wisconsin carries brands like Golden Ear, Klipsch, NAD, McIntosh, Bryston and an assortment of British loudspeakers. On Friday evening he told me after listening to the 275 for 10 seconds, "this is a wonderful amplifier"and ordered them on the spot. Feel free to call him for validation. Have done business with them since 1983. Perhaps he will validate my veracity; I am no shill.

The listening room in Maryland carries Audio Research, Magnapan, SME, Sonus Faber, etc.

The House of Stereo in Jacksonville FLA carries Bell Canto (Black-- their ultra high-end line), Ayre, Magnapan, KEF and TAD.

Adirondack audio carries McIntosh, Harbeth, Aurender, Hegel, Focal and Nordost!

They all studied our claims, some expressed skepticism, but they all bought once they heard the product. Interestingly, every one of our dealers offers a money back guarantee.

Despite this wonderful success, I often advise people not to buy the amplifier if their speaker sensitivity is below 87. I still advise people to listen to the product either before they lay out their money or to demand a money back guarantee of satisfaction.

I am not a shill.

FMalitz

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Perhaps a demo amp program like what the folks at Backert Labs did for us with their Rhumba preamp.

Noosh, aside from the fact that it would be foolish to offer a discount program on a product that's selling faster than we can make it, still, it's the kind of stuff Bob does as his fanatical fans know well. I lost hundreds of dollars on every 275 that Bob provided for them in kit form. He's very affectionate and romantic and does things like this.

However, as much as I would love to provide forum members the opportunity for a genuine bargain, we simply can't afford it. It is still a bargain. There are no other amplifiers like this in existence and it's expensive to build. Perhaps if it were made in China, at $100 a month, instead of in Washington state at $25-$30 an hour (or more depending on the part), we could lower the price but we simply can't do that. No matter our political leanings, which we almost never discuss, we're proud to build products in the United States even if it means less profit margin.

Finally, it would be morally reprehensible for me to undermine my dealer network. They too are entitled to make a living. The program is nonetheless a great idea. Perhaps at the next Carver Fest. We just can't do it now.

FMalitz

halo wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Perhaps a demo amp program like what the folks at Backert Labs did for us with their Rhumba preamp.

Perhaps, but we have to wait for the amp to be built and that appears to be the bottleneck at this point in time. As Mr. Malitz said, customers first, reviewers second (a Polk Forum demo program would fall in the latter category methinks).

What bottleneck?

stangman67

The suggestion was for a DEMO program, not a discount program. Backert basically lent the forum a unit that was passed from member to member to get their name out. Few companies offer the Customer service backert does unfortunately although.

nooshinjohn

stangman67 wrote: »

The suggestion was for a DEMO program, not a discount program. Backert basically lent the forum a unit that was passed from member to member to get their name out. Few companies offer the Customer service backert does unfortunately although.

As I said... he is clueless.

FMalitz

heiney9 wrote: »

Hyperbole at best. The claims made are lofty. If these were the greatest amps and also the single best selling amp in history like stated, there would be huge chatter on social media, etc. Yet not a peep except from the marketing department.

Very suspect, but I'll reserve full judgment in 6 months after things shake out a bit and deliveries have been made, if the story is true.

H9

Hyperbole? At best? Thank you for calling me dishonest. How stupid do you think I am to make lofty claims that I cannot back up? I never did this at Onkyo when they made a great product (1976-1980, then we had a recession and the product was compromised), never did that for Integra, never did for Yamaha. I have a reputation to protect and I need to sleep at night. I've raised children who I expect to have integrity. This is a personal insult. Please name one or more aspects that you consider to be dishonest so I can explain them like a gentleman.

Regarding chatter, there are two types--social media and the actual industry. I'll give you one example: before any of you had heard of Elac (again; they marketed record changers in the late 60s and early 70s), the insiders new that Andrew Jones was considering moving from Pioneer to Elac. Those of us who heard early models knew this would be successful but it took about a year to put things together. There was major chatter, to use your word, in the industry, not on social media who knew nothing about it but the dealers themselves had no idea what was about to happen and neither did any of you. I signed on before the company knew how much commission to pay reps because of that chatter!

Here's another example: the cognoscenti knew that Bob Carver was working on a new power supply. I contacted Pat Mountain, Sunfire's first sales manager, to throw my hat in the ring. It took a full year for the product to appear and those in the know were expecting something special. That's why we kept hammering on the management. Pat left, the company was finally born, I had the first prototype of the power amplifier, and my patience was rewarded.

This may surprise you guys, but social media is not necessarily the final word on accuracy. If you think about the nature of the people who have the time to post consistently, why would they represent the conduit of accurate information? Why would any of the movers and shakers in this industry bother with the Internet? Were not in the cellular phone business nor do we make smart speakers to speak to. Our products are esoteric by nature. I laughed when someone wrote me and asked what DAC and compact disc player Bob would recommend. Bob has never seen a forum. He has no idea what you guys are thinking about. The truly brilliant scientists build what they want. The marketers build what they think the public wants. This is particularly common with speaker brands.

What you should be looking at, rather than accusing me of things I haven't done, is who carries this product. Why would anybody with a store risk thousands of dollars on a line that only has hyperbole to offer? I stand by my challenge: tell me where I'm lying.

I sure get beat up a lot on this forum.

Frank

FMalitz

halo wrote: »

Mr. Malitz says that a moderator contacted him? Curious, as the only moderator we had retired the day before Mr.Malitz posted his reply in the thread.

I think all my email notices come from someone like a moderator. I know so little about forums I apologize if I'm using the wrong nomenclature.

FMalitz

Magnaryder wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

For the record: I am still looking for a third party 'review' -- a formal review with measurements would be nice, but a long-term assessment by a purchaser (ideally not one of that first 50 'fanatics') would be fine.

Pictures of the innards would be nice to see, too.

There is just so little chatter about these, two months after the sale, to be found on the internet... it's curious.

As one of the (fanatics) I can’t decide if I should be offended, or not. Is my evaluation of less value because Im one of the privileged few who built the 275 under the tutelage of the Master?

ray

We love our fanatics. We are fanatics too. Our business is built by fanatics. Would be nothing without them.

FMalitz

tonyb wrote: »

Magnaryder wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Magnaryder wrote: »

Get an ear on the Carver 275, it’s worth the effort.

ray

Thank you for that input. I noticed your running the Spatial M3's, which is the bigger brother to the M4's. Can you elaborate a bit on the Spatials as that is something that has caught my attention lately.

I'm particularly interested in how well they handle classic Rock.

They do a great job on the stuff I usually play. Anything from 60s Beatles, Stones and the like to ELP, Floyd, Hendrix, VH, Eagles all sound pretty damn good. They do justice to The Chairman, Miles, all the GRP CDs too. Even my classical Telarc discs. My room is a little closed in so I’ve modded the crossovers with Mundorf SGOs to add a bit of depth. I’m really happy with them. Look on Clayton’s Facebook page, you’ll find a pic of Bob Carver digging them on my EAR at TheFest a couple of years ago. Bob says they play WAAY above their price point.

ray

Thanks Ray, something to consider down the road. Seems you like that pairing of the Spatials and the Carver, both nice pieces in their own right. I may have to get my rear end over to Rockford for a listen since they aren't too far for me, for the Carver anyway.

Tony, using the contact utility on my website, let me know when you're going over to see Jim Clark. I'll try to drive out to meet you personally in case you have any questions; it's only about an hour and a half from me.

Frank

nooshinjohn

FMalitz wrote: »

I sure get beat up a lot on this forum.

Frank

Perhaps it comes from being among the most arrogant people ever to post on this forum. Try adding just a touch of humility to your posts instead of proclaiming yourself to be an audio God we should all be kneeling to. You are nothing more than a salesman... and a used car guy at that.

treitz3

Frank, I know Bob well. I know forums well. It might behoove you to take a step back.

Answering questions, offering insight will gain a hell of a lot more than tooting your own horn. I'm quite sure Bob would appreciate you doing just that, instead of what you are doing. I know Bob is a believer is any press is good press but this is a different animal. We are not the press.

This is quite embarrassing to me, to be Frank. No pun intended.

Tom

F1nut

FMalitz wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

Hyperbole at best. The claims made are lofty. If these were the greatest amps and also the single best selling amp in history like stated, there would be huge chatter on social media, etc. Yet not a peep except from the marketing department.

Very suspect, but I'll reserve full judgment in 6 months after things shake out a bit and deliveries have been made, if the story is true.

H9

Hyperbole? At best? Thank you for calling me dishonest. How stupid do you think I am to make lofty claims that I cannot back up? I never did this at Onkyo when they made a great product (1976-1980, then we had a recession and the product was compromised), never did that for Integra, never did for Yamaha. I have a reputation to protect and I need to sleep at night. I've raised children who I expect to have integrity. This is a personal insult. Please name one or more aspects that you consider to be dishonest so I can explain them like a gentleman.

Regarding chatter, there are two types--social media and the actual industry. I'll give you one example: before any of you had heard of Elac (again; they marketed record changers in the late 60s and early 70s), the insiders new that Andrew Jones was considering moving from Pioneer to Elac. Those of us who heard early models knew this would be successful but it took about a year to put things together. There was major chatter, to use your word, in the industry, not on social media who knew nothing about it but the dealers themselves had no idea what was about to happen and neither did any of you. I signed on before the company knew how much commission to pay reps because of that chatter!

Here's another example: the cognoscenti knew that Bob Carver was working on a new power supply. I contacted Pat Mountain, Sunfire's first sales manager, to throw my hat in the ring. It took a full year for the product to appear and those in the know were expecting something special. That's why we kept hammering on the management. Pat left, the company was finally born, I had the first prototype of the power amplifier, and my patience was rewarded.

This may surprise you guys, but social media is not necessarily the final word on accuracy. If you think about the nature of the people who have the time to post consistently, why would they represent the conduit of accurate information? Why would any of the movers and shakers in this industry bother with the Internet? Were not in the cellular phone business nor do we make smart speakers to speak to. Our products are esoteric by nature. I laughed when someone wrote me and asked what DAC and compact disc player Bob would recommend. Bob has never seen a forum. He has no idea what you guys are thinking about. The truly brilliant scientists build what they want. The marketers build what they think the public wants. This is particularly common with speaker brands.

What you should be looking at, rather than accusing me of things I haven't done, is who carries this product. Why would anybody with a store risk thousands of dollars on a line that only has hyperbole to offer? I stand by my challenge: tell me where I'm lying.

I sure get beat up a lot on this forum.

Frank

Take a look in a mirror and you'll see your worst enemy.

Sith_Lord

FMalitz wrote: »

Hyperbole? At best? Thank you for calling me dishonest. How stupid do you think I am to make lofty claims that I cannot back up? I never did this at Onkyo when they made a great product (1976-1980, then we had a recession and the product was compromised), never did that for Integra, never did for Yamaha. I have a reputation to protect and I need to sleep at night. I've raised children who I expect to have integrity. This is a personal insult. Please name one or more aspects that you consider to be dishonest so I can explain them like a gentleman.

Regarding chatter, there are two types--social media and the actual industry. I'll give you one example: before any of you had heard of Elac (again; they marketed record changers in the late 60s and early 70s), the insiders new that Andrew Jones was considering moving from Pioneer to Elac. Those of us who heard early models knew this would be successful but it took about a year to put things together. There was major chatter, to use your word, in the industry, not on social media who knew nothing about it but the dealers themselves had no idea what was about to happen and neither did any of you. I signed on before the company knew how much commission to pay reps because of that chatter!

Here's another example: the cognoscenti knew that Bob Carver was working on a new power supply. I contacted Pat Mountain, Sunfire's first sales manager, to throw my hat in the ring. It took a full year for the product to appear and those in the know were expecting something special. That's why we kept hammering on the management. Pat left, the company was finally born, I had the first prototype of the power amplifier, and my patience was rewarded.

This may surprise you guys, but social media is not necessarily the final word on accuracy. If you think about the nature of the people who have the time to post consistently, why would they represent the conduit of accurate information? Why would any of the movers and shakers in this industry bother with the Internet? Were not in the cellular phone business nor do we make smart speakers to speak to. Our products are esoteric by nature. I laughed when someone wrote me and asked what DAC and compact disc player Bob would recommend. Bob has never seen a forum. He has no idea what you guys are thinking about. The truly brilliant scientists build what they want. The marketers build what they think the public wants. This is particularly common with speaker brands.

What you should be looking at, rather than accusing me of things I haven't done, is who carries this product. Why would anybody with a store risk thousands of dollars on a line that only has hyperbole to offer? I stand by my challenge: tell me where I'm lying.

I sure get beat up a lot on this forum.

Frank

The only "Force" present in this one comes from sitting on his porcelain throne.

FMalitz

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The only guy I know that bought one here returned it due to problems with the unit that were unaddressed and unanswered after months of waiting for it, and weeks of trying to get them to resolve his issues. That may be why they are no longer discussed and why the company rep disappeared.

This is simply not true. If I knew the person's name, I could look up the details, but the product's only been shipping for a few months so he would've had to order the product that day it was introduced. Also, if he had worked with me more closely, I would have solved the problem for him. If it's who I think it is, he sent me a note saying he was returning the product without playing it so other than the late delivery, he had no other issues. In his note to me, he told me not to reply. He wanted nothing to do with us. I was very sad. I really wanted to resolve the issue but I didn't know why he was upset. My guess is, we made a promise, broke the promise, causing additional delay, offered, as we often do in this case, to have Bob Carver sign the amplifier and maybe he forgot to do so. I have no way of knowing since he did not specify. We work very hard to keep people happy and to the best of my knowledge no one is ever taken up the standard dealer offer of a money back guarantee due to being disappointed in the service or the performance of the amplifier except for this one instance which still leaves me mystified.

I've not disappeared. I just choose to avoid conflict. I can't understand why some of you view me as an adversary. I've opened my heart to you, discussed our successes and challenges, yet there continues to be a bitter undercurrent. Why would I want to read negative posts? At this point in my life, which is probably in the last trimester, I prefer harmony and happiness.

FMalitz

I probably should post one last thing. And if you can reach me through the contact utility on our website. You'll find me incredibly responsive.

FMalitz

nooshinjohn wrote: »

FMalitz wrote: »

I sure get beat up a lot on this forum.

Frank

Perhaps it comes from being among the most arrogant people ever to post on this forum. Try adding just a touch of humility to your posts instead of proclaiming yourself to be an audio God we should all be kneeling to. You are nothing more than a salesman... and a used car guy at that.

I'm sorry. I never meant to offend anyone. I can't do this anymore. I'm a very poor typist and my responses take a very long. I'm very uncomfortable especially with the responses from nooshinjohn. If any of you need me, my contact information is available.
My best to all,
goodbye.

nooshinjohn

FMalitz wrote: »

I've not disappeared. I just choose to avoid conflict. I can't understand why some of you view me as an adversary. I've opened my heart to you, discussed our successes and challenges, yet there continues to be a bitter undercurrent. Why would I want to read negative posts? At this point in my life, which is probably in the last trimester, I prefer harmony and happiness.

You brought the negativity with you when you came in here. Sorry the seas did not part at your command, and the animals failed to lie down in your presence as you spoke to us like we were nothing more than children that should have been in awe of your greatness.

Think of us as an amplifier, taking your small, barely detectible signal and sending it back your way loud and clear. So long as you are involved with Bob, I will not be able to advocate for anything that is produced by you. I am confident there are others that feel as I do, and see you as nothing more than a leech trying to take as much as you can from Bob while not really caring at all about how you accomplish it, even if that means taking the man's name from him yet again just to line your pockets.

nooshinjohn

FMalitz wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

FMalitz wrote: »

I sure get beat up a lot on this forum.

Frank

Perhaps it comes from being among the most arrogant people ever to post on this forum. Try adding just a touch of humility to your posts instead of proclaiming yourself to be an audio God we should all be kneeling to. You are nothing more than a salesman... and a used car guy at that.

I'm sorry. I never meant to offend anyone. I can't do this anymore. I'm a very poor typist and my responses take a very long. I'm very uncomfortable especially with the responses from nooshinjohn. If any of you need me, my contact information is available.
My best to all,
goodbye.

Cry me a river.

halo

FMalitz chooses to avoid conflict and embrace harmony and happiness. While this is an admirable goal for anyone, it simply isn't realistic; especially when you are a businessman. No one is going to run into happy people 100% of the time in the hi-end audio business; the odds just aren't in your favor and neither is the probability. Additionally, turning tail and running away at the first signs of adversity speaks volumes as to who you are as a person. It's either your way or the highway. Not what I want from the people with whom I chose to do business. A modicum of mutual respect, at the very least, is in order when you work in retail. This seems to be a lesson that has escaped you all throughout your illustrious career in the audio business.

VR3

This is a train wreck

joecoulson

No doubt. The idea that it’s hard to type responses and it’s not typical for him to respond this way is laughable. The responses come within minutes of each other.
Furthermore if I had the success and reputation as stated, why come on here and try to save face, no offense to Polkies like myself.
Would never buy from a company like this with arrogance leading the charge.

nooshinjohn

FMalitz wrote: »

I laughed when someone wrote me and asked what DAC and compact disc player Bob would recommend. Bob has never seen a forum. He has no idea what you guys are thinking about.

Frank

Bob would recommend finding a CD player with a tubed output stage, but likely not something in the ultra high-end because as an engineer and physicist, he would not see a need for something that simply reads one's and zero's...


That was easy, and the only person laughed at here is you for being too much of an arrogant snob to think about it for a second.

mlistens03

Just throwing this out there; anyone thought that maybe this FMalitz character isn't the real deal? As in, an imposter of the real Frank? Not saying it is or isn't true, just trying to defend Carver, as I like the company.
I wouldn't buy from a company that is run by FMalitz, whether the owner is Bob or not. But if this dude here is some sort of imposter, then the real Frank could be a great guy, and Carver would be stuck with all this negative press because of a random guy off the internet.
Strictly FWIW.
Micah

joecoulson

The posts mirror the commentary in the interview so I suspect it’s one in the same.

audioluvr

I've got a headache from reading this discussion. It's like you all summoned up the anti-Christ some how and we got a glimpse of him and now he's gone. Not sure why you would all do that... Is it some kind of test to prove your witchcraft skills or something? Not sure I want to play anymore. Sorry.