The Tale Of 5 Tweeters - SDA Tweeter Replacement Guide
Comments
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SUPER, Thank you so much.
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SL1000 And SL2000/RD0194 Frame Size Comparison
The SL2000 (and RD0194) frame size is 12% larger than the SL1000 frame.
Frame measurements were taken with Mitutoyo CD-6-CSX digital calipers.
SL1000 Dimensions:
4-8/16" W x 3-1/16" H (4.485" W x 3.039" H)
SL2000/RD0194 Dimensions:
4-10/16" W x 3-6/16" H (4.6085" W x3.355" H)
Fractional part of digital measurement was rounded up to closest 16th inch.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I can tell you that cutting the outside rim off the RD0194 gets it to fit (sometimes with a little enlargement at the corners of the cut outs) in a SDA-CRS SL1000 space (1984 version). They flush-mount very securely, and in my case, without any deformation of the face plate. Better than routing, given my tools/skills.
Can also confirm that to my untrained ears, there is a noticeable improvement. Smoother, sweeter and less "screechy" and sibilant.
Would like to add my thanks to DK for the informative thread. -
Great work!
Looking forward, are you thinking of doing any frequency response measurements also? -
I would love to, but proper frequency response measurements would require an anechoic chamber. The best I can do now would be the frequency response in my listening room...and that wouldn't tell the whole story when comparing the FR of the different tweeters.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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Thanks for the additional tweeter specs.
I still need to order some replacement tweeters.Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I would love to, but proper frequency response measurements would require an anechoic chamber. The best I can do now would be the frequency response in my listening room...and that wouldn't tell the whole story when comparing the FR of the different tweeters.
outdoors in a quiet location is a pretty good alternative.
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Provided it's close to a source of electrical power.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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Home-made SDA Tweeter Frequency Response Measurements
The following frequency response measurements of the SL1000, SL2000, SL2500, RD0194, and RD0198 tweeters were taken in the center of my living room, which measures 17' x 21' with a 10' ceiling. In the future, when I am more dedicated to audio than I am now, and when the weather is a bit cooler, I will take some free field tweeter frequency response measurements in my back yard.
Test Rig
Frequency response measurements were taken with Dayton Audio's OmniMic system. A test rig was made of items found around my home:
1. A 70" tall artists' easel.
2. Two Husky 1" C-clamps.
3. A Bogen model 3021 camera tripod.
4. Two 10" lengths of 18 gauge solid core wire terminated
with Gardner Bender female disconnects, model 15151F.
5. A Niles Audio MP00027 stereo patch panel.
6. Fifteen feet of DSR Silverline speaker cable, 10 gauge.
7. Bluesound PowerNode integrated amplifier/DAC.
Track 2 (Short Sine Sweep) of the OmniMic test signal CD was played from the PowerNode 2. A speaker cable was ran from one channel of the PowerNode 2 to the Niles patch panel, which was clamped to the artists' easel. The tweeter connection wires were ran from the rear of the patch panel.
Figure 1. Tweeter test rig.
Figure 2. The OmniMic's calibrated microphone was placed 9 inches from the center of the tweeter's domes.
Figure 3. The PowerNode 2 was controlled by the Dell VenuePro 7400 docked tablet computer on the left. Frequency response measurements were taken by the Dell XPS M1330 laptop computer on the right.
Figure 4. Prior to taking tweeter measurements, the test rig was tested with a MW6503 driver.
Figure 5. Bluesound PowerNode 2 integrated amplifier/DAC.
Frequency Response Measurements
Figure 6. SL1000 frequency response.
Figure 7. SL2000 frequency response. The famous tweeter peak at the right occurred at 13.38 kHz.
Figure 8. SL2500 frequency response. The SL2500 was not used in the SDA series speakers. It is included here because it is a derivative of the SL3000 design.
Figure 9. SL3000 frequency response.
Figure 10. RD0194 frequency response.
Figure 11. RD0198 frequency response.
Figure 12. Composite plot of all six tweeters. Black line: RD0194. Red line: RD0198. Light blue line: SL1000. Green line: SL2000. Purple line: SL2500. Dark blue line: SL3000.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Peer pressure is an amazing force.
(I kid -- I kid!)
In all seriousness, thanks very, very much for your industriousness and creativity in tackling this phase of your extensive evaluation/documentation of these drivers. I can only speak for myself, but it is much appreciated.
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Dang Raife We had better hope you don't get "dedicated" to audio you'll be a force to be reckoned with.
Very Nice by the way. -
Excellent work!"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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I thought SL2000's had a 5Khz hump in its freq. response which makes them un-liked by so many.
My old friends and I STILL LIKE my SRS-2's sound though. The previous 2 days had a lot of listening critics ears (6) trying to decide which we liked the most. We 3 have experienced MANY speakers and electronics. One friend is 36, the second is 29 and I'm 61. They can hear up to 17 or 18 Khz. , I hear up to 10 or 11 Khz. The 36 year old is the most experienced with SOUND. It would take two paragraphs to describe his experience and knowledge. My other friend creates his own recordings and has great ears too. Me...You all know about me already, just an old rocker!
These original tweeters in these SRS-2's now sound better than the ones in my last pair of SRS-2's I believe. I replaced them ( the older harsh sounding ones ) with R-DO194's. After a couple of weeks of listening to the new tweeters back then, they started to sound brighter than they did when they were new. The new R-DO194 tweeters are SMOOTHER I think. I have had no cross-over work done on either pair. Both SRS-2's are the Blade-Blade models.
An old friend of mine stopped by last night and we did A/B testing of a few speakers like I just did Tuesday with another old friend.
We three agree on the sound of my SRS2's with the old tweeters still in them sound louder in the midrange than 3 other speaker pairs, but we LOVE these speakers sound.
One being my new Triton Ones.
The second being my Newform Research R645's.
The third being my Monitor 10's with Peerless tweeters.
I've been really wanting to order replacement tweeters for these SRS-2s, but these sound OK still. I'm still sitting on the fence...
I feel the midrange increase in these make them sound different and brighter than the other three speakers but in a good way for now.
If I replace the tweeters, I'm almost sure the SRS-2's will sound smoother JUST like the other 2 speaker brands which are highly praised just like the Polks with Peerless tweeters are.
Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?
They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
I forgot to start my thoughts with a HUGE THANK YOU for doing these studies, logging all that information down and then posting all of it for us to see and study ourselves.
Thanks you again, Ray! Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?
They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.
Tony you can plainly see the hump in the green line(SL2000) in the graph that has all tweeters in it. Look just past the 10k part that is the hump. It doesn't look like much but that bit is the problem.
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Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?
They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.
Tony you can plainly see the hump in the green line(SL2000) in the graph that has all tweeters in it. Look just past the 10k part that is the hump. It doesn't look like much but that bit is the problem.
This bit right here(?):
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I see it now.
But my hearing cuts out at 10khz. Maybe my hearing was better years ago and could hear that hump and a harsh resonance.
But it seems my SRS2's sound is louder in the lower ranges in the midrange and it doesn't annoy my friend's sensitive ears or mine. It's really weird that the other set was great but the tweeters would sound like crap at certain frequencies like Celine Dion's voice a lot. I can't get to Celine's CDs right now, that sucks, but I'll put in some Diana Krall and another popular female singer, Alison Krauss with Union Station and another of her CDs.
I might hear it again. Give me some time to do it though. Maybe today or tomorrow. Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
Should make this thread a sticky for future references. Nice job Ray, as usual.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I thought SL2000's had a 5Khz hump in its freq. response which makes them un-liked by so many.
Actually, the hump is 5 dB at 13 kHz.mhardy6647 wrote: »
This bit right here(?):
Yes.
Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?
They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.
This plot should make it easier to see the 5 dB rise at 13 kHz. To see the plot in its native larger size, right click on the picture to either save it, open it in another tab, or view it separately.
Figure 13. SL2000 finer detail amplitude vs. frequency plot.
The average amplitude of the SL2000's frequency response from 1.5 kHz to 15 kHz is approximately 67.5 dB, which is 5 dB below the SL2000's peak amplitude response of 72.5 dB at 13 kHz.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Tony, instead of plastic straws I'm sending you a pair of glasses.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
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I appreciate the responses to help me out. Really.
But I started my inquire with a BOLD sentence stating I didn't see a hump in the 5khz region. All the tweeters are almost the same there. That was the reason for my confusion. I didn't even look at the very high region.
I said I've heard over the years there was a rise in amplitude around the 5khz. region.
Is my memory wrong about the all the discussions about why the SL2000 sounds so bad most of the time?
The 5Khz region is where I was concentrating my curiosity at in the graphs. As you can see and .
Why would I care about a frequency region I can't hear.
I do need glasses to read but I have them on almost 100% while at this PC. I had them on looking at Ray's EXCELLENT COMPARISON CHARTS he made from his studies.
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
I said I've heard over the years there was a rise in amplitude around the 5khz. region.
Is my memory wrong about the all the discussions about why the SL2000 sounds so bad most of the time?
The 5Khz region is where I was concentrating my curiosity at in the graphs. As you can see and.
Prior to your comment, I had never heard any mention of an amplitude rise in the 5 kHz region. All the discussions I know about were concerning the 5 dB rise in the 13 kHz region.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I've been through a lot the past 12 years or so and must have forgotten graphs from the past show what you found in your study.
I just searched the SL2000 and found a bunch of threads. But I only clicked on one and read down and saw what you just said. The hump at 13khz. was a know fact. But a few posts down, a member stated old tweeters deteriorated and produced bad things lower than that frequency.
Maybe I picked up on some others saying the same thing in other threads. Here 's the post in that one thread that maybe my old brain picked up on and agreed with. I see the graph you made. There's NO disputing the fact of what you recorded is what that tweeter produced.
I'm not even going to look at any other threads beside the one I decided to click on first.
I think I found my answer. SL2000's in bad worn shape might produce humps from 13khz and other frequencies lower or higher as they deteriorate.
ben62670 Posts: 16,077
June 2008 edited June 2008
Its not just the 12k bump. The SL2000 deteriorates with age more like milk than whiskey. They are not just harsh at the bump, but the breakup/harshness is heard in lower frequency ranges. Look at the schematic, and at least replace the two tweeters that run near full range. Remember give them time to burn in. They are fairly harsh in the beginning.
BenMost people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
Figure 14. SL2000 and RD0194 frequency response curves.
Figure 15. SL3000 and RD0198 frequency response curves.
Figure 16. SL2500 and SL3000 frequency response curves.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
SL1000 Further Measurements
In figure 12, thought the SL1000's roll off after 10 kHz was odd compared to the other tweeters. Fortunately I have three other SL1000s. Their high frequency response is much closer to the other tweeters.
The SL1000 in the original measurements is SL1000 #4. The T-S parameters of SL1000 #4 were similar to those of the other three SL1000s.
Figure 17. The response of the four SL1000s is close until #4 breaks away after 10 kHz.
Figure 18. Plot of all six tweeters with original (#4) SL1000. Black line: RD0194. Red line: RD0198. Light blue line: SL1000 #4. Green line: SL2000. Purple line: SL2500. Dark blue line: SL3000.
Figure 18. Plot of all six tweeters with SL1000 #3. Black line: RD0194. Red line: RD0198. Light blue line: SL1000 #3. Green line: SL2000. Purple line: SL2500. Dark blue line: SL3000.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Do you have any reference tweeters that are different than this cadre to test?
I wonder if 5-ish kHz dip is endemic to these tweeters or an artifact of the test.
PS PM me if you'd like my YT video post above removed from this reference thread, & I'll ask Ken to remove it (or feel free to ask him to do it yourself)! I apologize for decreasing the S/N of this fine thread!
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Excellent write up DK! Very informative, thank you for your efforts.
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Ray, was that oddball SL1000 the one that I sent you?Home Theater/2 Channel:
Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
dhsspeakerservice.com/ -
westmassguy wrote: »Ray, was that oddball SL1000 the one that I sent you?
No. I did not do FR measurements on your loaner. The oddball was one of four that I purchased from Dr. Wu.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
