2.1, is it still that taboo?

F1nut

Buzzed the tower, once again.

K_M

[quote="heiney9;2272229"]If you need subs with SDA's, you have the wrong gear running them and/or room set-up issues. The excursion of the 6 1/2" drivers has nothing to do with the bass limiting you seem to experience. It's essentially a closed system, a fluid coupled system. The bass comes from the pressure inside the cabinet created by the mid-woofs to move the passive radiator. In fact the reason the bass is so extended and clean is because of the controlled excursion of all the mid-woofs.

1C's are flat down to 30Hz (+/- 3dB) and play even lower at a few db's down and in the original review they had never tested a speaker that had that low a distortion figure at 25Hz. In fact they used the phrase "phenomenally low bass distortion" the lowest they had ever tested.

SDA's had no issues with bass. 20Hz-18kHz +/- 5dB.

You don't need a sub for SDA's.

H9[/quote]

No one "Needs" anything, it is a choice.

With 2 decent subs, it simply sounds better. As much as you and I agree and love our SDA's, I do not feel compelled to think they can out do, a couple quality subs. They simply can not, and do not.

I am talking "Deep" bass. The 15-30hz stuff in movies, in electronic music and in some rock music rarely.

Hearing is believing, and while the SDA's do great overall, it is simply not the same in the 20-30 hz range as good subs.
There is a very easy to "Feel" difference, especially in movies.
I get the pride in owning the flagship Polk speaker, but after hearing decent subs, you can never go back.

I had thought the deep bass on our SDA's was all we needed also, but alas there is better.

Not berating a speaker we both seem to love, but simply everything matters.

Some have different priorities and place importance on different things.

kharp1

heiney9 wrote: »

What instruments besides a full blown pipe organ play notes in the 20-25Hz range in most of the music one listens to? Not much if any.

If you are streaming music from the typical accounts like Pandora, Spotify, etc it's bastardized already so that's not the gear/speakers fault you are getting poor bass response.

I read recently that to fully reproduce a 20hz note in your living room ideally one would need a room with measurements in the range of 10ft ceilings, 17' wide x 30' long to be able to reproduce the signal naturally, without subs. When these room dimensions change room treatments are needed to combat the hot spots (nodes or modes) that clutter up the signals. That, combined with the what heiney9 mentioned, kind of makes trying to reproduce 20hz is almost a waste of energy and resources.

Just get it to where it sounds good to you and enjoy.

FTGV

Below 200hz or so the room has a huge influence on the frequency response of a speaker.It may measure flat to 30hz in an anechoic chamber but when placed in a real world listening room and depending upon relative placement to room boundries, the bass response can have peak or nulls of + - 10db or more.Optimum positioning for smoothest bass response may not be the best for good stereo imaging and vice versa.
Therefore the addition a sub woofer (or preferably two) optimally placed and properly integrated can help greatly in smoothing out the in room bass response.My speakers have strong output into the mid 20 hz region but I have found the addition of a pair of subwoofers in the front corners of the room improved the quality of the bass.The purpose of the subs was not to extend the bass response or increase output,but smooth out the peaks and valleys in the response.

txcoastal1

^^^^ finally...way to go Fred, great explanation of the room, the room, the room....

There are many sizes of SDA's but you can't expect a pair of CRS's to give full bass response in a 18x20 room vs 2.3 or 1.2...etc

Nor would I try to put 1.2's in a 10x12 room...etc

SCompRacer

Hi Fred! I tried my subs in several places in the room. They worked out best between the speakers and close to the wall. In the listening position, life is good! If you walk towards the speakers, you'll experience gradual nulling of the bass and then it's return. Room modes, freaky stuff!

motorstereo

Funny this thread should pop up as I was thinking my 1.2tl's would look more symmetrical without my 18'' transmission line-corner loaded sub. I also tried to rationalize my thinking by the fact that I'll be 61 in a couple weeks and maybe it's time to dial things back just a bit.

So I tried listening to just the 1.2's for a week minus the sub. All was good till I turned the sub back on after living a week without it. Sadly for me it's symmetrics be damned as that sub picks up where the 1.2tl's leave off from the low 20's on down and adds the depth to the music that I was missing but had gotten used to over the previous week. My experiences tell me the average 12'' ht sub is not going to integrate well with a pair of bigger polks. But if one happens to get a sub that's on par or beyond the bigger Polks bass and integrate it well it is a quality improvement that's tough to overlook or deny.

K_M

tonyb

FTGV wrote: »

Below 200hz or so the room has a huge influence on the frequency response of a speaker.It may measure flat to 30hz in an anechoic chamber but when placed in a real world listening room and depending upon relative placement to room boundries, the bass response can have peak or nulls of + - 10db or more.Optimum positioning for smoothest bass response may not be the best for good stereo imaging and vice versa.
Therefore the addition a sub woofer (or preferably two) optimally placed and properly integrated can help greatly in smoothing out the in room bass response.My speakers have strong output into the mid 20 hz region but I have found the addition of a pair of subwoofers in the front corners of the room improved the quality of the bass.The purpose of the subs was not to extend the bass response or increase output,but smooth out the peaks and valleys in the response.

Most logical post yet.

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

FTGV wrote: »

Therefore the addition a sub woofer (or preferably two) optimally placed and properly integrated can help greatly in smoothing out the in room bass response.

Absolutely Fred, you and Rich stated it most eloquently. But I can bet most that promote the use of a sub for music don't bother to do the room sweeps, relocating the sub in room for optimal performance and then calibrate it properly so it only plays for the lowest notes.

Most have an AVR, cross over at 60Hz and place the sub where it's most aesthetically pleasing and then turn the bass output up until it rumbles the floors and then states "everyone needs a sub to get good bass". That's who I envision using subs with large full range speakers. People use it as band aid, not looking to integrate it properly.

But people like yourself and especially Rich who understand and take the time to do it properly (aesthetics be damned) are going to get the proper results and proper integration.

For K_M here's the review linky, be sure to read the "in the lab" section too. This is where my info came from, not made up. Product literature isn't always a good source, sometimes, but not always.

http://www.polksda.com/srsreview.shtml

http://www.polksda.com/sda1creview.shtml

heiney9

I wasn't treating it as blanket material, merely informational to add to everything else. I would hope most would understand what the tests mean.

Again, my main focus was with the comment that SDA's don't have enough bass or play low enough and need subs.

K_M never articulated anything beyond that. Had she said something like Fred or Rich and had an explanation about her efforts and implementation to integrate the subs, I probably wouldn't have commented. Their points and experiences are valid.

I may have stated some absolutes and that wasn't my intention. All systems can benefit from proper room analysis, treatments and from an understanding of how to measure in room response and set things up accordingly.

I own SDA's in a fairly smallish listening area and I have plenty of bass. In fact I've had people ask where my sub is.

Also, if you know me, I am not into HT so my comments are strictly for 2 channel music not HT. HT is a whole other animal and has it's own set of parameters with special hardware and software driving the experience, and the two (IMO) can't be lumped together.

H9

heiney9

I just thought I'd cover my bases too.

I don't think subs are evil, just the way 95% of people use the subs in their systems cause me to cringe.

H9

heiney9

Actually, I don't enjoy that. I prefer a cleaner signal and cleaner bass than the scenario you just suggested.

I admit that the only time I do enjoy it is when a Led Zep concert DVD is playing (loud to very loud). You can feel Bonzo's kick drum in your chest.

But a steady diet would get old fast since it's a tad artificial and bloated.

You want a religious experience sometime. Put in the Cowboy Junkies - Long Journey Home dvd companion. Filmed at the Livepool Philharmonic Hall (2004 tour). Turn off the lights, crank the 2 channel SDA's and prepare to have every hair on your body stand up. Deep Bass that will rattle your chest cavity. The dvd 2.0 track is a much better mastering job than the cd.

https://www.amazon.com/Long-Journey-Home-Cowboy-Junkies/dp/B000IFRQ86/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&qid=1480693824&sr=8-34&keywords=cowboy+junkies

Or Ani DiFranco's - Live at Babeville dvd. Play Napoleon with the keyboard bass pedals that will shake you to your soul! And the snare drum snap that is superb.

https://www.amazon.com/Ani-DiFranco-Live-at-Babeville/dp/B00124SNMU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480693990&sr=8-1&keywords=ani+difranco+dvd

Some of the best demo material around. All in 2.0 tubed channel glory.

To be fair SDA's excel with live recordings and especially live recordings that are very well mastered (for stereo).

These were some of the materials I was playing (2 channel) when asked by friends where my subwoofer was......lol

H9

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

C'mon Brock. Subs are FUN!!! You can't deny that sometimes its just a blast to turn up the bass and feel the music in your bones!

I'll second that notion, but remember....Brock listens naked, rattling those bones....um....er, won't take much. lol

halo

heiney9 wrote: »

Absolutely Fred, you and Rich stated it most eloquently. But I can bet most that promote the use of a sub for music don't bother to do the room sweeps, relocating the sub in room for optimal performance and then calibrate it properly so it only plays for the lowest notes.

Most have an AVR, cross over at 60Hz and place the sub where it's most aesthetically pleasing and then turn the bass output up until it rumbles the floors and then states "everyone needs a sub to get good bass". That's who I envision using subs with large full range speakers. People use it as band aid, not looking to integrate it properly.

But people like yourself and especially Rich who understand and take the time to do it properly (aesthetics be damned) are going to get the proper results and proper integration.

There is a proper way to do things and then there are those of us who have to work within our means and our limits. I live in an apartment right now so I'm not putting up any acoustic treatments here. This doesn't mean that I'm lazy or that I don't care, it just doesn't make sense to treat the room that I won't be in for the foreseeable future.

I also have some serious space limitations so the sub goes where it can go. I did the sub crawl and I cannot place it where it sounds best. I don't have a dedicated listening room as the living room is a common space for more than just music listening.

I also disagree with your notion that a 2-channel / HT hybrid cannot be done. The last setup I had while living ina house was a hybrid and it was pretty good. The acoustics are better where I'm at now (very surprising) but I don't have the same options for placing speakers wherever I want.

It's a compromise on my part but I'm ok with it it because I can enjoy the setup the way it is and I know that it can get better when the living situation becomes more stable. There is always room for improvement in this hobby.

I'm glad you've found something that works so well for you. I agree on the Ani DiFranco demo material (you introduced me to her at the Chicagoland Polkfest). I also remember that you were all solid state back then with, IIRC, a Nakamichi pre and Adcom amp driving LSi9s. You picked up the SDAs from Normanality at the Polkfest and you took home some Signal Cable ICs courtesy of Frank Dai at Signal Cable.

It's all good man. We all make moves that get us closer to the sound we're after and that's what's fun about the hobby.

halo

@heiney9 - for what it's worth, the bass sounds like it's coming from the bookshelf speakers and the sub is not noticeable except for one corner of the room (the living room opens to a kitchenette and the corner closest to the doorway to the kitchen is where the bass is more pronounced. That said, it doesn't sound bad in that corner - it's just not the mlp).

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

I'm getting a smart meter next week, should I ask for you to install it?

Did you have a dumb one before ? lol

SCompRacer

tonyb wrote: »

Most logical post yet.

Yeah, but it's easy to ignore the logical. It's like why bother.

Ah screw it...the folks that have no perceived issues with the bass from their speakers in their rooms, good for you. Thing is you are just lucky. How dare you insult others working to improve their sound adding subs. This freaking place sucks sometimes. One of the reasons I rarely post or check in.

My hope is always to reach just one audio type and see that it's OK to add subs to your two channel. The room, read up on it and what it can do. Get free software to do your sweeps. Your effort won't go unrewarded.

Bottom line, you may not solve your bass problem buying speakers that work fine for someone else in their space. Audiophiles are supposed to know all aspects of what affects sound beyond gear used. Thus I am just a serious audio enthusiast as I don't know it all. But compared to 10 years ago, I know a lot more now than I did then.

EndersShadow

heiney9

SCompRacer wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Most logical post yet.

Yeah, but it's easy to ignore the logical. It's like why bother.

Ah screw it...the folks that have no perceived issues with the bass from their speakers in their rooms, good for you. Thing is you are just lucky. How dare you insult others working to improve their sound adding subs. This freaking place sucks sometimes. One of the reasons I rarely post or check in.

Geez Rich, having a bad day? None of my posts about adding a sub were ever intended to insult anyone.

I'm outta this one as it's obviously a tender subject.

H9

Paradoxex

heiney9 wrote: »

I just thought I'd cover my bases too.

I don't think subs are evil, just the way 95% of people use the subs in their systems cause me to cringe.

H9

This forum reinforces the notion time and time again that all that matters is what you hear - what makes sense to the primary listener's ears. Not some reference listener's ears, and not a specification sheet. All you need to do to remind yourself of this ethos is bring up cables or sonic vibrations.

It seems odd, then that people get so fired up about how others use subs in their home own listening environments. Some people like subs, others think the music is better without it. I don't know that there's any way to back up claims that one approach yields cleaner bass and a cleaner signal. What does that even mean? Maybe the reality is that some people just want more bass in their music than others. That doesn't mean they like their music less clean; they just have different tastes.

What I'm really saying is this: I took my PC-13 that I bought on this forum and set it on fire after reading this thread. After listening to my system again without my sub, I have severe regrets. I guess I just love unclean music.

SCompRacer

I'm having a great day, I'm off. It just seems someone adds a sub to their two channel and gets slammed.

I'm out of here too. Adios...

lightman1

I bought some new cables for my CD player. Will I hear an improvement?

cfrizz

Only your own ears will tell you that Russ.

Thorton

FTGV wrote: »

Below 200hz or so the room has a huge influence on the frequency response of a speaker.It may measure flat to 30hz in an anechoic chamber but when placed in a real world listening room and depending upon relative placement to room boundries, the bass response can have peak or nulls of + - 10db or more.Optimum positioning for smoothest bass response may not be the best for good stereo imaging and vice versa.
Therefore the addition a sub woofer (or preferably two) optimally placed and properly integrated can help greatly in smoothing out the in room bass response.My speakers have strong output into the mid 20 hz region but I have found the addition of a pair of subwoofers in the front corners of the room improved the quality of the bass.The purpose of the subs was not to extend the bass response or increase output,but smooth out the peaks and valleys in the response.

Very nice post. I have followed a similar path as Rich and Fred. The room, speaker location and listening position are critical to what's the end result. REW (while there is a learning curve) is a valuable and inexpensive tool. Optimizing the placement (speakers, subs and listening position), proper integration of the subs and room treatments, I feel, has increased my overall musicality 3 fold. So in my case, Subs All the Way.

Now I just wish more dedicated preamp companies offered products that included proper/easier sub integration.

Upstatemax

Lots of awesome info in here. It's nice to hear what others have experienced when experimenting with system changes.

For the record, I did not try a sub because I necessarily wanted more bass. I really wanted to see how the Totem's would react if they were relieved of bass duties.

I was very happy with the results. I love what they were able to do with better midrange and imaging. Much cleaner soundstage overall.

As others have said, it will have A LOT to do with your room and your system. For my system, the sub just works.

I've just always had a natural resistance to allowing a sub in a 2ch system. I'm glad I gave it a shot. The P5 makes it easy to integrate and tweak the sub. I figured the worst that would happen is that I don't like it, but at least I got to enjoy bourbon while I figured it out!

zarrdoss

In your case, using a sub with your speakers which have one 4.5" woofer and bottom out at 40 Hz or so I can see the benefit with most music especially at louder levels.
Adding a sub can be addicting and one can keep on turning the sub up and eventually your music becomes bass bloated and unnatural.
With most larger speakers that dig deeper I find I personally don't need a sub for most of everything I listen to.
Good for you for experimenting and finding something you like, that's what this journey is all about.

kharp1

I have experimented with moving the Usher cp-6311's and Tyler Taylo's in and out of the system as I add new pieces and trying to ultimately decide what will end up in the main system and what will end up in the other system. I've learned that the Tyler's benefit from the addition of a pair of subs and the Usher's don't. Actually, the Ushers sound better without the subs in. Just my own personal experience.

That's not to say that when I get done setting up this room and move to the next that the Ushers won't benefit from having a sub added as that room is considerably bigger. Just having fun with the add a piece at a time, listen, adjust process.

WTS

heiney9 wrote: »

What instruments besides a full blown pipe organ play notes in the 20-25Hz range in most of the music one listens to? Not much if any.

If you are streaming music from the typical accounts like Pandora, Spotify, etc it's bastardized already so that's not the gear/speakers fault you are getting poor bass response.

Garbage in = Garbage out.

Even my instrument's lowest fundamental is about 28 Hz, and I probably spend more time in about the 40-200 range.

The lowest fundamental of the piano is 27.5 Hz, unless it's a Bösendorfer.

But don't forget about instruments such as pipe organs (as you mentioned) or synthesizers that can go that low or lower.

Plus there can be difference tones to reproduce.

tonyb

LOL.....NAH..... Rich is just expressing what chases away many people from the forum. Even though I might suggest that's the nature of the beast with subjective matters.

Sometimes we as audiophile nut balls get so entrenched in our beliefs that we lose sight of the ball, the goal.....better sound. Means different things to different people obviously and one size fits all philosophy's don't work.

We talk about this every few months or so, and the forum used to have the attitude if it sounds good to you, roll with it. Personally I still hold that attitude as well as many others. Hard to put everything or everyone in the same box, just too many variables.