2.1, is it still that taboo?

tonyb

lightman1 wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

cfrizz wrote: »

I have always used a sub in my system, Very few speakers are truly full range and can go that low. SDA's excepted.

Until you hear the difference for yourself you won't really know what you are missing, the same applies to a powerful amp. That's why I encourage everyone to hear the difference for themselves.

We do run subs with our SDA's, and feel it is necessary, especially with movies.

While the SDA's do seem to have decent enough deep bass, its just not the same as a true sub.
Plus removing the under 40hz or so stuff, seems to make the upper bass and mids of the SDA's cleaner and clearer.

Always felt they compromised bass power handling to try to get deeper bass with most of the larger polks.

The vintage Polk 6.5" drivers, have very limited excursion, so its tough to get truly deep bass, loud levels, and low distortion, even with several of them.

2-15" Subs just do it so much more effortlessly!

My SDA's will shame your subs.

Pool of bass....and I swam in it.

Did ya leave a ring around the room like everything else you swim in ? lol

The whole subwoofer thing is a matter of preferences is all. I think dual subs, if your into subs, is the way to go though. Dedicated subs do add an element of speed to the bass notes, good subs anyway.

My train of thought has always been to take that money you'd spend on a pair of decent subs, which can be substantial, and buy better speakers than can handle those lower bass notes and handle them well. Fed with adequate power, you'd be surprised how well some big floorstanders can do.

You have 2 less big honking boxes to place in the room, less cabling and less hum issues to worry about. Plus the other advantages of buying better speakers would carry itself into other areas of the musical spectrum. Plus your wife may love not having two ugly boxes taking up more floor space.....a win-win in my book.

There is no right or wrong answer at the end of the day, do what suits your lifestyle, wallet, and ears.

motorhead43026

KM strikes out again.

Upstatemax

tonyb wrote: »

The whole subwoofer thing is a matter of preferences is all. I think dual subs, if your into subs, is the way to go though. Dedicated subs do add an element of speed to the bass notes, good subs anyway.

My train of thought has always been to take that money you'd spend on a pair of decent subs, which can be substantial, and buy better speakers than can handle those lower bass notes and handle them well. Fed with adequate power, you'd be surprised how well some big floorstanders can do.

You have 2 less big honking boxes to place in the room, less cabling and less hum issues to worry about. Plus the other advantages of buying better speakers would carry itself into other areas of the musical spectrum. Plus your wife may love not having two ugly boxes taking up more floor space.....a win-win in my book.

There is no right or wrong answer at the end of the day, do what suits your lifestyle, wallet, and ears.

You bring up a good point about the expense of good subs, especially if you want dual subs.

For me, I just need the amp fixed in my Velodyne that's just sitting around collecting dust. Couple of hundred bucks and I'll have all the bass I can handle in my 2ch room.

Plus I find myself sitting around in my 2ch room watching TV and movies more and more. So a sub would be a welcome addition to more than just music at this point.

DollarDave

I wonder if there is a correlation between the "SDAs don't need no stinking sub" group and the "No tone controls, no remotes, no loudness compensation curve, never ever" group? And, vise versa.

heiney9

DollarDave wrote: »

I wonder if there is a correlation between the "SDAs don't need no stinking sub" group and the "No tone controls, no remotes, no loudness compensation curve, never ever" group? And, vise versa.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the empirical and observational evidence that SDA's don't need a sub to augment the bottom end.

H9

halo

tonyb wrote: »

The whole subwoofer thing is a matter of preferences is all. I think dual subs, if your into subs, is the way to go though. Dedicated subs do add an element of speed to the bass notes, good subs anyway.

My train of thought has always been to take that money you'd spend on a pair of decent subs, which can be substantial, and buy better speakers than can handle those lower bass notes and handle them well. Fed with adequate power, you'd be surprised how well some big floorstanders can do.

You have 2 less big honking boxes to place in the room, less cabling and less hum issues to worry about. Plus the other advantages of buying better speakers would carry itself into other areas of the musical spectrum. Plus your wife may love not having two ugly boxes taking up more floor space.....a win-win in my book.

There is no right or wrong answer at the end of the day, do what suits your lifestyle, wallet, and ears.

i can see your point Tony. However, it would cost me more money than the dual subs (I'm referring to the SVS SB-NSD at the moment) to move up to a DM or Excite series floorstanding speaker. Aside from that, the DM 3/7's FR is only rated at 40Hz on the bottom end. Even a budget friendly sub like the NSD is producing copious amounts of bass compared to the floorstanding 3/7. That's where I'm at in that equation whereas others may be in a different position.

halo

DollarDave wrote: »

I wonder if there is a correlation between the "SDAs don't need no stinking sub" group and the "No tone controls, no remotes, no loudness compensation curve, never ever" group? And, vise versa.

I've never owned a pair of SDAs but I don't use tone controls or loudness compensation in my 2-channel setup. I do use subs now which I did not before my purchasing of the ELAC Uni-Fi speakers (which didn't stay but the sub did).

heiney9

FTR, I don't use tone controls or loudness contours (don't even have them on any gear) even when using the various tube integrated amps on the 5B's in my office rig. I can rattle the closet doors with bass.

Tone controls in most instances do more harm than good because their frequency attenuation is far too broad. Not to mention the added noise they inject into the overall noise floor, etc.

H9

tonyb

halo wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

The whole subwoofer thing is a matter of preferences is all. I think dual subs, if your into subs, is the way to go though. Dedicated subs do add an element of speed to the bass notes, good subs anyway.

My train of thought has always been to take that money you'd spend on a pair of decent subs, which can be substantial, and buy better speakers than can handle those lower bass notes and handle them well. Fed with adequate power, you'd be surprised how well some big floorstanders can do.

You have 2 less big honking boxes to place in the room, less cabling and less hum issues to worry about. Plus the other advantages of buying better speakers would carry itself into other areas of the musical spectrum. Plus your wife may love not having two ugly boxes taking up more floor space.....a win-win in my book.

There is no right or wrong answer at the end of the day, do what suits your lifestyle, wallet, and ears.

i can see your point Tony. However, it would cost me more money than the dual subs (I'm referring to the SVS SB-NSD at the moment) to move up to a DM or Excite series floorstanding speaker. Aside from that, the DM 3/7's FR is only rated at 40Hz on the bottom end. Even a budget friendly sub like the NSD is producing copious amounts of bass compared to the floorstanding 3/7. That's where I'm at in that equation whereas others may be in a different position.

I hear ya, but I said speakers that can handle the lower bass notes well. 40 HZ is not lower bass notes. 20HZ and below I would consider full range and lower bass note capable.

Also, buying demo or used full range speakers will easily fall into your budget when considering 2 new good subs.

Granted here, I'm not saying full range speakers can and will give you the same effect as 2 quality subwoofers.....especially in a HT environment, but they can when fed ample amounts of power compete very well on the musical side. The added benefits of better speakers, like I said, will carry itself well beyond simple bass reproduction also.

I guess what I'm trying to say is.....if your the type that listens and values music more than HT, going with full range speakers may offer you a more pleasing experience than just trying to thump out that lower bass with subwoofers on lessor speakers.

heiney9

What instruments besides a full blown pipe organ play notes in the 20-25Hz range in most of the music one listens to? Not much if any.

If you are streaming music from the typical accounts like Pandora, Spotify, etc it's bastardized already so that's not the gear/speakers fault you are getting poor bass response.

Garbage in = Garbage out.

halo

tonyb wrote: »

I hear ya, but I said speakers that can handle the lower bass notes well. 40 HZ is not lower bass notes. 20HZ and below I would consider full range and lower bass note capable.

Also, buying demo or used full range speakers will easily fall into your budget when considering 2 new good subs.

Granted here, I'm not saying full range speakers can and will give you the same effect as 2 quality subwoofers.....especially in a HT environment, but they can when fed ample amounts of power compete very well on the musical side. The added benefits of better speakers, like I said, will carry itself well beyond simple bass reproduction also.

I guess what I'm trying to say is.....if your the type that listens and values music more than HT, going with full range speakers may offer you a more pleasing experience than just trying to thump out that lower bass with subwoofers on lessor speakers.

I understand what you mean. Going "full range" in the Dynaudio line is way beyond my budget at the moment. lol. I like the sound quality I get from the bookshelf speakers but they are missing the low end reproduction. I use the subs to blend in and not to overpower the music. I actually don't have either sub connected for HT use as Audyessy (even on Heavy) makes the room shake.

heiney9 wrote: »

What instruments besides a full blown pipe organ play notes in the 20-25Hz range in most of the music one listens to? Not much if any.

If you are streaming music from the typical accounts like Pandora, Spotify, etc it's bastardized already so that's not the gear/speakers fault you are getting poor bass response.

Garbage in = Garbage out.

I don't know Brock. I think some electronica/dub step/house/rap/classical/orchestral has some substantial bass.

One of the members on the forum told me he was hearing deep music details after adding subs. His son is a musician and told him what he was hearing was the pedals being pressed by the bassist or guitar player. I can only relay this too you as I haven't heard it for myself.

heiney9

Well to me that's not "real" instruments. And a good full range speaker should be able to reproduce 90-95% of that "fake" electronic induced signal. So in that case if you are listening to that kind of music (no judgment here) and you want to have artificially enhanced bass to crumble the walls, then the sub will do that for you.

Dub/house music is artificial and created electronically, not really what I had in mind when I was posting.

I am talking about real, recorded instruments as my reference and full range speakers like SDA's that can realistically reproduce down to 20-25Hz.

We haven't even talked about the mastering and recording process and how it can affect the final recorded product.

H9

halo

heiney9 wrote: »

Well to me that's not "real" instruments. And a good full range speaker should be able to reproduce 90-95% of that "fake" electronic induced signal. So in that case if you are listening to that kind of music (no judgment here) and you want to have artificially enhanced bass to crumble the walls, then the sub will do that for you.

Dub/house music is artificial and created electronically, not really what I had in mind when I was posting.

I am talking about real, recorded instruments as my reference.

H9

i understand that which is why I also mentioned orchestral and classical music.

heiney9

What orchestral instrument plays around the 25Hz range or lower? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Not only that but then the music producer/engineer has to get that recorded. Much of the lack of low bass content is cut out at the mastering stage in order to make it appeal to the masses and their pedestrian gear.

Remember the warnings on the Telarc discs when they first came out.

There are so many variables in the content and gear and set-up that one can't make a blanket statement. My statements are for what I am familiar with and that's large SDA's. They can realistically produce bass notes as low as 20-25Hz. If you're not getting that from SDA's, you have other issues or the recording just doesn't have that content.

heiney9

...and a true sub should only produce about 30Hz and lower. A stellar sub to fill in the sub octaves are very expensive to do it correctly and accurately. So many of the middle of the road subs cross over much higher and sound terrible doing it for music.

H9

heiney9

There are guys on here that use subs on their 2 channel, but they are expensive subs, calibrated for room correction, etc and are designed to augment the lowest frequencies only. Talk to Rich about that. It sounds excellent and very well integrated. So there are times when it can be done, but you can't skimp in that area and one needs to realize you aren't using the sub to compensate for some other deficiency, but to augment the very bottom end.

H9

lightman1

Shut up, Brock.

heiney9

Russ....................say that to my face!

You going to be out this way anytime soon, still disappointed I missed you guys last time you were literally in my back yard

halo

Rich is using 2 NHT subs IIRC. NHT isn't that pricey. It's not like REL. Yes, Rich has used room calibration software, experimented with the proper placement of he speakers in his room, & he is using room treatments. That's a lot of time, effort, & expense to achieve the sound he is after (not to mention selecting and, in some instances, building his own equipment). Yes, a lot of variables to be sure. I feel that the subs in my apartment are augmenting the low end that isn't reproduced by the bookshelf speakers in my setup. YMMV. I've heard SDAs on a number of occasions but I have never owned a pair myself. The Von Schweikert VR2 & the InnerSound MK II hybrid ESLs I owned both produced very deep bass for full range speaker(s).

heiney9

halo wrote: »

Rich is using 2 NHT subs IIRC. NHT isn't that pricey. It's not like REL. Yes, Rich has used room calibration software, experimented with the proper placement of he speakers in his room, & he is using room treatments. That's a lot of time, effort, & expense to achieve the sound he is after (not to mention selecting and, in some instances, building his own equipment). Yes, a lot of variables to be sure. I feel that the subs in my apartment are augmenting the low end that isn't reproduced by the bookshelf speakers in my setup. YMMV. I've heard SDAs on a number of occasions but I have never owned a pair myself. The Von Schweikert VR2 & the InnerSound MK II hybrid ESLs I owned both produced very deep bass for full range speaker(s).

My point exactly. He has taken the time to integrate them properly. You and I know how much time and energy he spends to get it right. Most don't do that. And yes, subs augmenting bookshelf speakers is ok in my book.

We all have different situations, different needs, expectations. Many times I feel people add subs to make up for other deficiency's, most notable gear. I am speaking about the comments made about SDA's needing subs to play low bass. It simply isn't true. And I once again have been very long winded saying that......lol.

H9

SCompRacer

My listening tastes covers some ground. Classical, pipe organ, rock, jazz, even some dubstep. I want to hear everything from the low notes to the high notes. Only way to experience the music entirely, IMO. That's what gives ME the chills and emotional involvement anyway.

What I learned, consult a music chart for what you like to listen to. Do a room sweep to see how the room and your speakers play together. If you are missing significant dB for the frequency ranges in the music you listen to, adjust speakers, acoustically treat and/or add subs. My speakers are rated 25Hz - 20KHz (+/- 1.5db). I wasn't getting anywhere near to 1.5dB from 25 to 35Hz range, just a hint. Then I added the NHT subs.

In my case they shouldn't really be referred to as sub woofers since I am supplementing the 25-35Hz range. Sub bass helpers maybe? I've had modded SDA SRS 2 and Carver SIlver Amazing's here. The low bass did not fare well with either of them in my 10,000 cubic feet plus open main level. Remember, you get what you accept.

SCompRacer

You are most welcome. I've never been super critical about what to call the frequency ranges. Thus I consider myself a serious audio enthusiast.

One of my fav organ albums. Gives me chills anyway. (Also anticipates funny comments on the way...lol).

lightman1

heiney9 wrote: »

Russ....................say that to my face!

You going to be out this way anytime soon, still disappointed I missed you guys last time you were literally in my back yard

I'm in Terre Haute, Indiana now.......close.

heiney9

What kind of disturbance do I need to make in my neck of the woods that you would be dispatched here again? LOL

lightman1

Tell your electric utility to hire my company to convert the streetlights to LED.

heiney9

I'm getting a smart meter next week, should I ask for you to install it?

lightman1

No meters on my end buddy. Just thoroughfare illumination.

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

What kind of disturbance do I need to make in my neck of the woods that you would be dispatched here again? LOL

Throw some fat chicks on the street with a dog whistle, that outta do it.

lightman1

tonyb wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

What kind of disturbance do I need to make in my neck of the woods that you would be dispatched here again? LOL

Throw some fat chicks on the street with a dog whistle, that outta do it.

arsehole

K_M

There is lots of music and movies that a decent sub will do better than the SDA speakers as far as very loud and deep.

Have you guys actually Heard 2 good subs with your SDA's or are you just basing it on pride?