2.1, is it still that taboo?
Upstatemax
Posts: 2,670
I found myself with the very rare Free Time this week and decided to play around with the bass management section of my P5.
I borrowed the SB2000 from my HT and brought it into my 2ch room. I was kinda hoping that I would not like it.
I set everything up and started to listen. Obviously the bass is meatier and more defined. But the Arro's came alive when I relieved them of bass duty. The midrange beefed up and vocals (especially male vocals) were on a whole new level.
Just to make sure I was not too far into my bottle of bourbon, I called my father over for more "help". We sat back down, bourbon in hand, and listened a whole lot more.
We were both in total agreement that the sub was a very welcome addition to the system. Sound stage was much more stable and the Arro's already great imaging took on a whole new life.
JJ Grey & Mofro's "This River" has never sounded so involving in my system. A tough song for the Arro's has been Anders Osborne's "Move Back to Mississippi". It's about as bass heavy as I get.
Again, the sound stage was just much better planted and everything just seemed to come together.
When I first got into this, the idea of a subwoofer in a 2ch system was about enough to get a visit from Tony and end up in the "waste management system".
Obviously this is clearly changing as a big selling point of the P5 has been its bass management. So I have to ask, what is the current feeling about a subwoofer in a 2ch system?
In the end, I don't care. I will do what sounds best for my system, but I'm just curious about other peoples experience.
Now I need to convince my wife that it's a great idea to spend the money to repair my Velodyne SPL1000 that needs a new amp...
The problem, my wife usually only has enough patience for one of my hobbies at a time and I'm building a new mountain bike over the winter. Haha.
I borrowed the SB2000 from my HT and brought it into my 2ch room. I was kinda hoping that I would not like it.
I set everything up and started to listen. Obviously the bass is meatier and more defined. But the Arro's came alive when I relieved them of bass duty. The midrange beefed up and vocals (especially male vocals) were on a whole new level.
Just to make sure I was not too far into my bottle of bourbon, I called my father over for more "help". We sat back down, bourbon in hand, and listened a whole lot more.
We were both in total agreement that the sub was a very welcome addition to the system. Sound stage was much more stable and the Arro's already great imaging took on a whole new life.
JJ Grey & Mofro's "This River" has never sounded so involving in my system. A tough song for the Arro's has been Anders Osborne's "Move Back to Mississippi". It's about as bass heavy as I get.
Again, the sound stage was just much better planted and everything just seemed to come together.
When I first got into this, the idea of a subwoofer in a 2ch system was about enough to get a visit from Tony and end up in the "waste management system".
Obviously this is clearly changing as a big selling point of the P5 has been its bass management. So I have to ask, what is the current feeling about a subwoofer in a 2ch system?
In the end, I don't care. I will do what sounds best for my system, but I'm just curious about other peoples experience.
Now I need to convince my wife that it's a great idea to spend the money to repair my Velodyne SPL1000 that needs a new amp...
The problem, my wife usually only has enough patience for one of my hobbies at a time and I'm building a new mountain bike over the winter. Haha.
Comments
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If it sounds good to you, do it!
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This is the exact reason I purchased a P5. I love the bookshelf/monitor sound and wanted to run one of my systems with stand mount speakers, but, didn't want to sacrifice the bass extension. I was running 2 SB2000's, however, I just got my old M&K back and seem to like it better that the svs.
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I have a sub in my 2 channel listening room, to go with my Ascend Bookies. Adds just a bit of low end to fill out the total sound stage in a great way. I've listened with and without, and I'll take the former every time. As said previously, whatever sounds best is what is "right".2 Channel "Polk" Room:
Marantz PM8004 Integrated
Marantz SA8004 SACD Player
Music Hall mmf 7.3 TT with Ortofon Bronze
WiiM Mini
Schiit Bifrost with Multibit Upgrade
Polk 7B with RDO198s -
I was very anti sub.
I played with my sub in my 2ch and ended up loving it.
My speakers have awesome bass all on their own, but not like a Sunfire sub. I ended up setting the sub up to only cover the lowest frequencies and at alow volume level.
The Tara-Labs subwoofer cables are nice too.B&W CM9Classé Sigma -
I find my Monitor 7's midrange/midbass detail and clarity to be improved when running in a 2.1 configuration. With the RD0's and Clarity caps the 7's sound great on their own but the difference is audible when passing the lower registers to an external sub. I could not say how an active 3 way speaker might act in the same configuration. It seems the 7's lose a bit of detail when I am trying to run them in such a way as to force the lowest registers they are capable of playing. It may be Passive Radiator specific, I do not have the experience with different full range speaker systems to say one way or the others.
As others have stated it sounds better to us as a 2.1 so that is how we leave them. With the Outlaw 975 switching from 2.0 to 2.1 is one push of a button so we have ample opportunity to compare. YMMV -
Thanks for the feedback so far. I agree 100%, If I like it, it's what I'm going to run.
I was amazed at how much I liked it. -
I've got the P5 as well and I bought for its built-in DAC as well as the 2.1 bass management. I didn't need it with the Energy RC-70 floorstanding speakers but it is excellent with the Dynaudio X14s. It worked very well with the Energy RC-LCRs and the NHT SB-3 too. I was against the idea of a sub in a 2-channel set up as it felt like cheating by augmenting the low end - like using tone controls to boost the bass. After plugging in the sub I realized that this is not the case, instead, the bass that the speakers cannot reproduce on their own is filled in by the sub (or subs).Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10 -
2.1, is it still that taboo?
No.
Implementing a sub does not mean your main speakers are not good. The room determines whether your, for example, 20Hz-25kHz +- 1.5dB speakers will play at +-1.5dB at 20, 25 or 35Hz.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
There's another aspect to this that sometimes gets lost in the discussion.
Speaking as a musician whose instruments play in the subwoofer range, I know the effects that low bass can have on music. As a conductor once said to me, my presence makes other instruments, such as clarinet or piccolo, sound better, when we play together.
If you play music with significant information in the contrabass range through speakers that cannot reproduce those frequencies, then you are missing out on part of the musical experience.
If the speakers distort the low notes, and/or cause the amplifier to clip, all the worse. -
That's the key isn't it ? Having speakers that can reproduce the whole musical spectrum. If you don't, then yeah, a sub is going to open everything up, especially with bookies.
Nothing is taboo in audio, if it sounds good to you, roll with it.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
In a single word....
No -
I have always used a sub in my system, Very few speakers are truly full range and can go that low. SDA's excepted.
Until you hear the difference for yourself you won't really know what you are missing, the same applies to a powerful amp. That's why I encourage everyone to hear the difference for themselves.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
I don't personally need it with my SDA 2Bs but when I had my Monitor 5s I ran them with a nice musical 8 inch sub. I think it really lets the bookies shine like they are supposed to. I would never ask a Karate master to fight in a boxing ring and vice versa.Just a dude doing dude-ly things
"Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
" I have always had a champange taste with a beer budget" - Rick88
"Just because the thread is getting views don't mean much .. I like a good train wreck doesn't mean i want to be in one..." - pitdogg2
"Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know." - heiney9
"Audiophiles are the male equivalent of cat ladies." - Audiokarma Member -
I go back and forth. Sometimes I like the purer presence of 2ch, for instance, in dedicated listening sessions where I prefer overall balance and detail. For background listening or any sort of chillout/downtempo/electronic stuff, I'm in 2.1.
Some prefer a very natural bottom end. Sometimes I like it fuller and fatter.I disabled signatures. -
Can't stop laughing... yes, I've got a middle school sense of humor.Some prefer a very natural bottom end. Sometimes I like it fuller and fatter.
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Nothing is taboo in audio
Except equalizers and DBX stuff like noise reduction and dynamic range expanders.
afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
mdaudioguy wrote: »
Fuller and fatter for me, thanks. -
Whatever floats your boat or tickles your fancy! TEHO!Fuller and fatter for me, thanks.
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Fuller and fatter for me, thanks.
That explains why you keep playing Meghan Trainor on a loop...
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I have always used a sub in my system, Very few speakers are truly full range and can go that low. SDA's excepted.
Until you hear the difference for yourself you won't really know what you are missing, the same applies to a powerful amp. That's why I encourage everyone to hear the difference for themselves.
We do run subs with our SDA's, and feel it is necessary, especially with movies.
While the SDA's do seem to have decent enough deep bass, its just not the same as a true sub.
Plus removing the under 40hz or so stuff, seems to make the upper bass and mids of the SDA's cleaner and clearer.
Always felt they compromised bass power handling to try to get deeper bass with most of the larger polks.
The vintage Polk 6.5" drivers, have very limited excursion, so its tough to get truly deep bass, loud levels, and low distortion, even with several of them.
2-15" Subs just do it so much more effortlessly!
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If you need subs with SDA's, you have the wrong gear running them and/or room set-up issues. The excursion of the 6 1/2" drivers has nothing to do with the bass limiting you seem to experience. It's essentially a closed system, a fluid coupled system. The bass comes from the pressure inside the cabinet created by the mid-woofs to move the passive radiator. In fact the reason the bass is so extended and clean is because of the controlled excursion of all the mid-woofs.
1C's are flat down to 30Hz (+/- 3dB) and play even lower at a few db's down and in the original review they had never tested a speaker that had that low a distortion figure at 25Hz. In fact they used the phrase "phenomenally low bass distortion" the lowest they had ever tested.
SDA's had no issues with bass. 20Hz-18kHz +/- 5dB.
You don't need a sub for SDA's.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
mdaudioguy wrote: »
Fuller and fatter for me, thanks.
Two people agreed. It's not as taboo as we are told to believe...... -
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Upstatemax wrote: » Tell me you don't like that fuller more rounded bass(sic), then I will say you are in denial. And I don't mean swimming in the Egyptian river.....
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ken brydson wrote: »
LOL.
The part I especially love about "Big Bottom" is that they're all playing electric bass.
It's all about the bass, 'bout the bass, no guitar.... -
Get on your bikes and ride!
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I have always used a sub in my system, Very few speakers are truly full range and can go that low. SDA's excepted.
Until you hear the difference for yourself you won't really know what you are missing, the same applies to a powerful amp. That's why I encourage everyone to hear the difference for themselves.
We do run subs with our SDA's, and feel it is necessary, especially with movies.
While the SDA's do seem to have decent enough deep bass, its just not the same as a true sub.
Plus removing the under 40hz or so stuff, seems to make the upper bass and mids of the SDA's cleaner and clearer.
Always felt they compromised bass power handling to try to get deeper bass with most of the larger polks.
The vintage Polk 6.5" drivers, have very limited excursion, so its tough to get truly deep bass, loud levels, and low distortion, even with several of them.
2-15" Subs just do it so much more effortlessly!
My SDA's will shame your subs.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
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I have always used a sub in my system, Very few speakers are truly full range and can go that low. SDA's excepted.
Until you hear the difference for yourself you won't really know what you are missing, the same applies to a powerful amp. That's why I encourage everyone to hear the difference for themselves.
We do run subs with our SDA's, and feel it is necessary, especially with movies.
While the SDA's do seem to have decent enough deep bass, its just not the same as a true sub.
Plus removing the under 40hz or so stuff, seems to make the upper bass and mids of the SDA's cleaner and clearer.
Always felt they compromised bass power handling to try to get deeper bass with most of the larger polks.
The vintage Polk 6.5" drivers, have very limited excursion, so its tough to get truly deep bass, loud levels, and low distortion, even with several of them.
2-15" Subs just do it so much more effortlessly!
My SDA's will shame your subs.
Pool of bass....and I swam in it. -
Always felt they compromised bass power handling to try to get deeper bass with most of the larger polks.
The vintage Polk 6.5" drivers, have very limited excursion, so its tough to get truly deep bass, loud levels, and low distortion, even with several of them.
The test review would disagree with you. Lowest bass distortion ever tested (at the time) and I believe at 900 watts their reference amplifier (the most powerful in the day) ran out of juice before the SDA's ran out of "excursion".
I am glad you enjoy your rig, but subs are a choice not a necessity with SDA's and they aren't really necessary.
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qDgCmzh5ao
