The Year Of DACs

machone

"However, so far every other album in DSD that I like, I already own in PCM format."

I feel your pain. I have downloaded a couple of DSD albums at $25 each. I downloaded them because I did not have them in PCM format and now that I have them downloaded I have nothing to compare them to.

I can say without a doubt that a Korg upconverted DSD file sounds superior to the original 44.1khz .wav file but...

What I need to do is download an album that I do have in PCM format so that I can compare a DSD file created from a SACD cutting master with a Korg Audiogate upconverted DSD file created from a 44.1khz file.

Jeff Beck's "Blow By Blow" may be a good candidate for this comparison. I don't know?

DarqueKnight

WLDock wrote: »

However, given your taste...the reference quality Pioneer Stage 4 products might be better suited: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/Stage4

DEX-P99RS - $1349 list

I don't go for reference quality in my car and truck systems. All I want is clear, non-fatiguing sound...and a unit that is not going to need repair or replacement every two years.

I don't expect to spend more than $500 on a head unit.

polkfarmboy

Dk if you paid for shipping both ways your welcome to borrow my Chord dsd dac for a couple of weeks that I have in my personal system.

[Deleted User]

Mr DK.

I highly anticipate your experience with the dCS DAC. Once you do, I would like to send you another DAC, It is a tube based AKM DAC, that processes up to 24 bits. Completely unknown in the U.S. Market. Designed, engineered and brought to life in Vietnam. It has been to many shows in Asia and the UK.

I wish I still had my Chord DAC to send but I don't. Based on real life experiences, some preferred Direct Stream DSD, some preferred Hugo, and some preferred Meitner. The dCS and Lamp were the few in common that almost always walked away as the clear, undisputed standouts.

That is, until this Asian based tube DAC made its round. Thi Van Labs.

He does not make for profit, only out of the pure enjoyment of reproduced sound. I respect that. So, if you are still interested...

Halen

[Deleted User]

polkfarmboy wrote: »

Dk if you paid for shipping both ways your welcome to borrow my Chord dsd dac for a couple of weeks that I have in my personal system.

Very nice offer man! When it comes to Redbook quality, Chord products are amazing. People talk about sound stage width, Chord brings the top and bottom as well. But DSD.. That is a another story.

Very nice of you Mr PFB.

Halen

DarqueKnight

halenhoang wrote: »

Completely unknown in the U.S. Market. Designed, engineered and brought to life in Vietnam. It has been to many shows in Asia and the UK.

That is, until this Asian based tube DAC made its round. Thi Van Labs.

He does not make for profit, only out of the pure enjoyment of reproduced sound. I respect that. So, if you are still interested...

Halen

polkfarmboy wrote: »

Dk if you paid for shipping both ways your welcome to borrow my Chord dsd dac for a couple of weeks that I have in my personal system.

I would like to try both the Chord and the Thi Van DACs. Once the Debussy is here, I will contact you to make shipping arrangements.

Thank you for the opportunities.

polkfarmboy

No prob DK, the chords a tiny lil dac so shipping wont sting too much.

vc69

The Meitner DACs would be on my short list for the level DK is seeking.

tonyb

Halen,

Your description of the Chord is baffling me. Outstanding on redbook, but DSD not so much ? Am I misinterpreting something here ?

polkfarmboy

I think it is zero, the prices go sky high then boom! They drop like the stock market on a bad day butnever bounce back. I kinda think its akin to th HT market in the sense that the tech makes an insignificant advance and everyone gets rid of their older tech and plumets the market.

DarqueKnight

tonyb wrote: »

Halen,

Your description of the Chord is baffling me. Outstanding on redbook, but DSD not so much ? Am I misinterpreting something here ?

DSD/SACD is a niche market. At this price point, Chord may have decided to optimize for PCM since that is what most music is recorded in. I have 819 PCM albums and 29 DSD albums.

tonyb

DarqueKnight wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Halen,

Your description of the Chord is baffling me. Outstanding on redbook, but DSD not so much ? Am I misinterpreting something here ?

DSD/SACD is a niche market. At this price point, Chord may have decided to optimize for PCM since that is what most music is recorded in. I have 819 PCM albums and 29 DSD albums.

Kinda figured such, but still, competition is hot and heavy in the Chord Hugo range, you would think....eh, maybe not. Nothing is really all that surprising anymore.

Anyhoo....that DCS looks to be a killer, can't wait for your review and comparisons to the Cary.

tonyb

Ray,

Any updates to this ? You get the DCS in the door yet ?

DarqueKnight

I'm still waiting.

When I placed the order in February, I was told 8-12 weeks delivery time because it was a special order from England. When I followed up in April, the dealer staff didn't know the status of the order and said the owner would contact me. I didn't hear from the owner until June. He said he had been working a very serious issue with one of his other businesses that had taken all of his time for the past three months and he would check into it and get back to me. He called three days later and said a mistake was made in the order form and money was sent to the wrong company! The company that received the money in error just sat on it. He said he would personally straighten it out.

When I contacted the dealer last week, I was told the owner was on vacation but that he had gotten everything straightened out in June and they would have him contact me this week. Assuming everything was straightened out, and assuming the 8-12 week delivery time still holds, I am now looking at a late August or early September delivery.

The dealer is a solid guy, so while I am disappointed at how long this is taking, I realize mistakes happen.

tonyb

Gotcha Ray.

Wow though, 6-7 months even with mistakes would be unacceptable in my book. Unless they were hand making one just for me.

They do get great reviews, so I'm interested how they compare to the higher end stuff on the other side of the tracks. My guess is a big diminishing returns thing. Might be better, but how much cost is involved for those improvements. Only the end user can decide that.

asindc

As it happens, one of my dealers has allowed me to audition the Debussy in my home this week. Though I'm satisfied with the Cary, it is getting a bit long in the tooth. The Debussy I have in place is for a demo price, hence the incentive to try it at this time.

I've been listening to Redbook rips, 24/88, 24/96, 24/176, and 24/192 downloads through Amarra, and DSD64 downloads through Audirvana Plus.

I initially tried the Debussy without the use of my excellent Berkeley USB converter, as the Debussy is much more expensive, even at the demo price, than what I can sell the Cary/Berkeley USB/Wireworld Gold AES/EBU for. Well, that didn't last long. The Debussy without the Berkeley sounded diffuse and unfocused compared to the Cary/Berkeley combo. I found myself listening to the Debussy w/o Berkeley just for the sake of doing so. I even preferred the RB rip of Coltrane's Blue Train to that of the DSD64, though my preference for Amarra over Audirvana Plus might have something to do with that as well. (For the record, the Music Matters' reissue of the mono LP version of Blue Train handily beat them both.)

As my budget does not allow me to buy the Debussy and keep the Berkeley/Wireworld cable, I didn't want to try them together. Couldn't resist though. Well, immediately everything that was wrong with the Debussy without the converter was cured once the Berkeley was paired with it. That's more like it!, I thought. Now for the tell-tale test. Went back to the Cary/Berkeley combo. Well, I was surprised to hear very little difference between the Debussy/Berkeley and the Cary/Berkeley. The Cary/Berkeley actually has a touch more weight/heft in the presentation. If I was not A/Bing, I probably would not have noticed any difference.

So for now, my DAC search continues, though I'm really in no hurry to replace the Cary. My findings thus far as confirmed what my experience with several other DACs has told me: The Cary 306 SACD Pro will be very difficult to dethrone without spending a lot of money.

DarqueKnight

asindc wrote: »

The Cary 306 SACD Pro will be very difficult to dethrone without spending a lot of money.

I'm not even trying to dethrone my 306 SACD Pro, I just want something that is at least as good, and that plays DSD files and hirez PCM.

Ironically, Cary's DMC-600SE is a little better in PCM resolution, but DSD playback is not satisfactory because the 600SE's USB interface is not completely compatible with my Bryston BDP-2 digital player. The 600SE is geared toward Windows and Apple computers, while the BDP-2 is a Linux-based platform. The 600SE is also not compatible with my dCS Puccini U-Clock master clock.

Thank you for sharing your experience with the Debussy. I will probably end up cancelling the Debussy order and selling the DMC-600SE. I put the 306 back in the two channel system tonight and I don't miss the DMC-600SE at all.

Bryston is offering a new sound card upgrade for the BDP-2 that is said to offer significantly improved sound over the AES and coaxial inputs. I have one on order. The new sound card also allows DSD playback over the AES output. If the BDP-2's new sound card enables it to work with the 600SE, I'll keep it. If not, I will sell it and continue to run the 306 for PCM digital file playback and play SACDs from disc.

tonyb

Thanks for all that info Ray. Maybe your just experiencing the laws of diminishing returns ? Seem like it's gonna cost you a good buck to get any significant increase in sound quality.

Though I get the compatibility issue and where you want to go with DSD playback, but have you tried any of Brystons own dacs ? Just asking, personally don't know anyone that has or heard one myself....but I'd imagine they'd be designed to go with the players like PB&J.

marvda1

DSkip wrote: »

After playing around with the marantz and AMR, I think for your highest sound quality you're going to want to stick to disk based playback. I've been converted back to physical media. IIRC, this mirrors what you've found in most of your source shootouts you've done a handful of times.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not giving up my server and for mid-fi systems its still a bit of a toss up, but when jumping into the high end players, the disk appears to be the better option. In this case, I wouldn't be dying to find one that boasts DSD because I still don't see it beating the SACD, or in some cases, even the redbook.

when dealing with dacs, could it be the transport having more of an effect than we think?

DarqueKnight

tonyb wrote: »

Seem like it's gonna cost you a good buck to get any significant increase in sound quality.

But there's the rub: I am not seeking a significant increase in sound quality. I would be happy with the same sound quality as the 306, but with DSD capability added. I just want a DAC that plays all my digital file formats without any loss of the sound quality I have now.

tonyb wrote: »

Though I get the compatibility issue and where you want to go with DSD playback, but have you tried any of Brystons own dacs ? Just asking, personally don't know anyone that has or heard one myself....but I'd imagine they'd be designed to go with the players like PB&J.

There would definitely be no compatibility issues with Bryston gear. They currently do not have a DSD DAC. They have one in development, the BDA-3, that is supposed to be available later this year. With an MSRP of $3200, I would not expect its build quality and sound to come close to the 306.

Curiously, my Cary DAC-100 has no USB compatibility issues at all with the Bryston BDP-2. In fact, the DAC-100's USB connection is the best sounding among the coax, AES, and USB outputs.

DSkip wrote: »

After playing around with the marantz and AMR, I think for your highest sound quality you're going to want to stick to disk based playback.

Oh noooooo! My ripped CDs (FLAC format) sound much better than disk. I'm never going back to disk-based PCM. All my CDs are in storage. My SACDs have not been put away yet because I do not have a satisfactory method of playing DSD files

DSF files ripped from SACD sound the same as SACD. The advantage with ripped dsf files is the convenience of access to my entire SACD collection and being able to make custom playlists. No more running back and forth to load disks.

DSkip wrote: »

I've been converted back to physical media. IIRC, this mirrors what you've found in most of your source shootouts you've done a handful of times.

You must have me confused with someone else. I think of disc playback as a form of barbaric torture, second only to vinyl's barbaric method of making music by dragging a rock through plastic grooves. Then there is all the mess with cleaning records, changing sides every 22 minutes, and no way to conveniently skip tracks you don't like.

DSkip wrote: »

Don't get me wrong - I'm not giving up my server and for mid-fi systems its still a bit of a toss up, but when jumping into the high end players, the disk appears to be the better option. In this case, I wouldn't be dying to find one that boasts DSD because I still don't see it beating the SACD, or in some cases, even the redbook.

If I were listening to music files from an electrically noisy computer, using something like JRiver, I would agree that disk playback sounds better. That is why I purchased another Bryston BDP-2 digital player for my office rig rather than playing music from one of the computers in my office. Music from the JRiver/computer/DAC-100 combination did not sound as good as music from my 27 year old Yamaha CDX-1110U CD player. Music from the BDP-2/DAC-100 combination stomped the CDX-1110U into retirement.

DarqueKnight

marvda1 wrote: »

when dealing with dacs, could it be the transport having more of an effect than we think?

I know for sure that the transport feeding a DAC can make a big difference.

The BDP-2 player, with its significantly larger power supply, sounded much better than its predecessor, the BDP-1. Both BDP players crushed playback from a Dell XPS M1330 laptop running JRiver.

DarqueKnight

It

DSkip wrote: »

For all intents and purposes (in my mind at least), my computer server should be as noise free as your BDP given that there are no moving parts and the only noise should be electrical.

Computer servers are not built with the aim of isolating and diminishing electrical noise that affects high fidelity audio signals.

tonyb

Well Ray, it's no secret you dig the Cary sound, maybe wait it out then. DSD isn't going away anytime soon, and hopefully Cary will address the capability issues.

DarqueKnight

DSkip wrote: »

What I would like to know (and I don't mean this in any snarky kind of way) is what other things separate this from just a computer? Is it a specialized motherboard designed specifically for audio purposes? I'm not seeing anything off the top that makes me thing this is anything more than just a computer in a different skin.

From a BDP-2 brochure:

"All-in-one music servers have serious issues with noise and distortion, so Bryston totally separated the 'digital processing' side (playing music files) from the 'data management' (storage, handling, ripping) side of the equation. The Bryston BDP-2 Digital Player's single function is to play high-resolution digital music files without compromise. It does not contain a hard drive, CD player, ripper, or noisy fans and switching power supplies. Thus there are essentially no mechanical moving parts to the BDP-2 that could compromise sound quality.

Bryston also electronically isolated the audio components from the computer components and used galvanic isolation to isolate and avoid charge-carrying particles moving from one section to another. The BDP-2's improved power supply delivers over 5 amps, with 10 amps peak.

Unlike most competing players, the BDPs feature linear power supplies which do
not radiate high frequency switching noise into sensitive high precision digital audio circuitry."

machone

Skip. I don't mean to get off topic but:

Take a look at the Uptone Regen website. This device helps to isolate the DAC from the computer (both the power supply and the digital signal). The associated forum is a very interesting read as they discuss the Uptone Regen as well as power supplies (lots of experiences). I am seriously considering placing an order.

Obviously the quieter the computer the better. My BIG complaint with my laptop is fan noise. I have considered a fanless brick style computer to replace the laptop.

BlueFox

Can't comment on Cary sound, but my Lumin S1 handily beats the BDP-1/Auralic DAC combo, and it plays DSD. On other sites the Lampizator DACs are getting great press for DSD.

http://www.lampizator.eu/Fikus/WELCOME_TO_LAMPIZATOR.html

I agree physical discs are barbaric, nor is there any way a generic computer based music server, built with the least expensive parts around, can come anywhere near the sound fidelity of a dedicated, purposely designed high-end music server.

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

Can't comment on Cary sound, but my Lumin S1 handily beats the BDP-1/Auralic DAC combo, and it plays DSD. On other sites the Lampizator DACs are getting great press for DSD.

http://www.lampizator.eu/Fikus/WELCOME_TO_LAMPIZATOR.html

I agree physical discs are barbaric, nor is there any way a generic computer based music server, built with the least expensive parts around, can come anywhere near the sound fidelity of a dedicated, purposely designed high-end music server.

I agree with all of that FOX, but that's not to say a computer based system is going to sound like nails on a chalkboard in comparison. Simply 2 different levels is all and a computer based system certainly has it's place for musical enjoyment.

You want to kick it up a few notches, then yeah....a dedicated music server is the way to go, built specifically for that purpose.

I would love to get an ear on the Lamp, nothing but praise from day one on those puppies.

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

You want to kick it up a few notches, then yeah....a dedicated music server is the way to go, built specifically for that purpose.

Its still a computer though. I'm curious to see what a linear power supply would do to my server.

DSkip wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

You want to kick it up a few notches, then yeah....a dedicated music server is the way to go, built specifically for that purpose.

Its still a computer though. I'm curious to see what a linear power supply would do to my server.

DSkip wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

You want to kick it up a few notches, then yeah....a dedicated music server is the way to go, built specifically for that purpose.

Its still a computer though. I'm curious to see what a linear power supply would do to my server.

Well, so is a Fisher Price tablet, not the same as a Mac book pro though. A universal player is still a cdp.....not as good as a dedicated higher end cdp, but still performs the same function.

I'd be willing to bet a linear power supply would make a significant improvement for you, but I don't think that alone will get you all the way there.

tonyb

I hear ya Skip, but I'm kinda chuckling inside. Why ? Because your hearing what Higher end stuff sounds like, digging it, then looking at the cobwebs in your wallet and wondering if there is a cheaper work around.....just like I do. lol

DarqueKnight

Update And Conclusion

I began my venture into computer audio in September of 2014 with the purchase of a Bryston BDP-1 digital player. It was paired with my 2008 model Cary Audio CD 306 Professional Version SACD player ($8000), which has an excellent DAC stage.

I discovered that converting my 44.1K 16 bit CDs to FLAC files resulted in both convenience and better sound. Over a period of several weeks, my entire CD and SACD collection was transcribed to FLAC (CDs) and DSF (DSD64) files respectively. In order to play my DSD files, I needed a DSD capable DAC, which the Cary CD306PV was not.

The first DSD-capable DAC I tried was the acclaimed PS Audio DirectStream DAC ($6000). I was bitterly disappointed in the DS DACs sound quality compared to the Cary CD306PV. In addition to the hit in sound quality, there were also interface issues with the BDP-1. I sold the DS DAC. During a discussion of my experience with the DS DAC with Cary Audio, they advised that the CD306PV would be difficult to beat without going substantially upstream in price. They suggested that I might like their new DMC-600SE ($8000) and that it sounded better than the CD306PV. I did try the DMC-600SE and it did sound better than the CD306PV, but not significantly better. Plus, the DMC-600SE had some of the same interface issues with the BDP-1 and BDP-2 digital players as the DS DAC. The DMC-600SE also was not compatible with my dCS Puccini master clock. Cary offered to modify my DMC-600SE free of charge so that it would accept the U-Clock's wordclock signal, but I declined. The U-Clock wasn't entirely useless. The BDP-2's sound was improved by connecting the BDP-2's USB output to the U-Clock's USB to SPDIF converter, and connecting the U-Clock's SPDIF output to one of the DMC-600SE's SPDIF inputs.

I came to the realization that it might take me up to a year to find a DAC with satisfactory sound and features, and that's why 2015 was "the year of DACs".

A few months after purchasing the BDP-1, Bryston introduced the BDP-2, which offered a larger power supply, much faster file cataloging, and better sound. I bought a BDP-2 for my two channel system and moved the BDP-1 to the home theater system, where it is paired with an ancient (2001 model) Sony TA-E9000ES preamp/HT processor that has a DAC stage that plays music files up to 96K resolution.

About a year after the BDP-2 was introduced, Bryston announced the availability of the Integrated Audio Device, which is a significantly improved sound card. The new sound card allows DSD64 output in DSD over PCM (DoP) format over the SPDIF and AES/EBU outputs. The IAD also offered significantly better PCM and DSD sound quality over its AES and SPDIF outputs. The IAD did not include the USB output. The IAD debuted to rave reviews, but I couldn't hear everything others were hearing because the DMC-600SE only accepts DSD input over USB.

Along the way, I converted my office system from CDs to a computer audio system based on a Bryston BDP-2 digital player and Cary Audio DAC-100. I also auditioned and tested various USB, AES, and SPDIF cables and settled on digital cables made by Revelation Audio Labs. The only downside to the RAL cables was that RAL is a "boutique" manufacturer and it can take months to receive your order...but they are well worth the wait.

Happy Ending

The arrival of the dCS Debussy DAC ($11,500) near the end of November ended my search for a DAC that does everything I want it to do feature-wise, that has the stereophonic performance I want, and which plays well with my other equipment. The dCS Puccini U-Clock ($5,500) provides an ultra low jitter clock signal that synchronizes the BDP-2 digital player and the Debussy DAC. The degree of improvement in sound brought by the U-Clock is similar to what you hear when switching a preamp from mono to stereo.

A full review of the Debussy DAC is forthcoming.


Figure 1. David and Goliaths - front to rear: dCS Debussy DAC, Cary Audio DMC-600SE CD player/DAC, Cary Audio CD 306 Professional Version SACD player/DAC.


Figure 2. Such Good Sound from a very modest, entry level dCS stack, top to bottom: dCS Debussy DAC, dCS Puccini U-Clock, PS Audio PowerBase isolation platform, Black Diamond Racing Mark 4 carbon fiber isolation cones and pucks.


Figure 3. Left to right source components: Teres Audio Model 255 turntable with Graham Phantom II tonearm and Ortofon MC Windfeld moving coil phono cartridge, Bryston BDP-2 digital player, dCS Debussy DAC and dCS Puccini U-Clock. My vinyl cravings have decreased considerably since the Dubussy DAC/Puccini U-Clock went active in my two channel system.


Figure 4. Two channel system viewed from listening position.

References

1. http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/165484/ps-audio-directstream-dac-the-review-that-almost-was/p1

2. http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/165959/digital-interconnect-cables-whats-your-experience

3. http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/164845/bryston-bdp-1-digital-player-review/p1

4. http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/166413/bryston-bdp-2-digital-player-review

5. http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/168871/pure-overkill-computer-audio-office-system