Mantis version about the TRUTH about signal cables.
Comments
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I'm actually jealous of the cables don't matter crowd.
Just think of when they get ahold of some good cables and
it turns them on their heads. Think of the sheet munching
grins on their faces as they try to listen to all of their music
all over again for the first time. It's what it is all about.
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rednedtugent wrote: »I'm actually jealous of the cables don't matter crowd.
Just think of when they get ahold of some good cables and
it turns them on their heads. Think of the sheet munching
grins on their faces as they try to listen to all of their music
all over again for the first time. It's what it is all about.
Never happen.
I am jealous too but for other reasons. Think of all the money they save not knowing.
Knowledge is a double edged sword for sure.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
What about those who purchase a cable and don't like the new one as much???...when someone purchases a cable, they tend to hear a better sound...Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
Surely science has an exact point at which cables no longer matter.
Here's the point I was making in the thread that is now closed. BUT, I was told by the "cables don't matter" crowd that cables do matter, but only to a certain (price) point.If the sole purpose is to pass the signal from point A to point B, Home depot wire will do that.
If cables make no difference then all of you saying otherwise, yet are using more than lamp cord are hypocrites. Plain and simple.
No one said "Cables don't matter".
No one said cables make "NO difference"
They said, after a certain point, no exact point mind you, but the gains to be had are extremely tiny, once one moves even beyond run of the mill cables.
And yes, people have said, "Cables don't matter" and "Cables make no difference." Numerous times they have said it.
Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
It doesn'trednedtugent wrote: »yes can we please get back to why Hi-res sounds better than vinyl!
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Does too.
nooshinjohn wrote: »
It doesn'trednedtugent wrote: »yes can we please get back to why Hi-res sounds better than vinyl!
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Answer please, especially since it was asked by two of us.
Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
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Look at it this simply. What would be the absolute best cable one could make?
It would be NO cable. No degradation.
They do have wireless speakers these days. Have you tried any?A one foot long 8 gauge wire will have nearly zero loss.
That statement discounts many other important perimeters.A cable can not "Add" to the sound, only take away. And it can only take away a very small amount.
An extremely oversimplified statement of what a cable can do.There you have your ideal cable. Short and heavy Gauge.
Wait, first you state that the best cable would be no cable, but now state that a short, heavy gauge cable would be ideal? You seem confused.It really is that easy. You guys are making a passive wire into more than it really is.
No, you are trying to convince others of that. We know better.It is "Audio", something that by its very nature is very easily conducted over any reasonable speaker wire.
True to a point as some cables do a much better job than others.There is no magic, no higher power, nor no something else we do not realize.
I'm not sure what magic or a higher power has to do with cables, but the last is a surprising ignorant comment from someone so based in science.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
rednedtugent wrote: »I'm actually jealous of the cables don't matter crowd.
Just think of when they get ahold of some good cables and
it turns them on their heads. Think of the sheet munching
grins on their faces as they try to listen to all of their music
all over again for the first time. It's what it is all about.
Never happen.
I am jealous too but for other reasons. Think of all the money they save not knowing.
Knowledge is a double edged sword for sure.
You seriously do not get it do you?
Look at it this simply. What would be the absolute best cable one could make?
It would be NO cable. No degradation.
It will not cost thousands of dollars to emulate nothing, or close to nothing.
A one foot long 8 gauge wire will have nearly zero loss.
A cable can not "Add" to the sound, only take away. And it can only take away a very small amount.
There you have your ideal cable. Short and heavy Gauge.
There is no magic, no higher power, nor no something else we do not realize.
I do get it Kevin, too bad you don't....because there is no such thing as an ideal cable that will fit everyones preference. If you think all a cable does is a matter of degree of degradation, then I'm sorry you don't understand audio in general. Nothing I say will change your mind, nor will you change mine, so lets agree to disagree.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
You didn't get Tony's post at all......LOL
You also don't seem to understand that silver wire and copper wire have VERY different sound signatures. For some folks the sound signature of silver is the cat's meow and they don't mind paying for it.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
A cable will not "Sound".
It is not a transducer, a bell or an object that can make sound.
It passes Alternating current.
It can mildly degrade the sound, if it is too thin or too long.
Different metals, geometry, and dialectrics will affect the tonality of a speaker or IC cable. This may or may not be apparent using measuring devices, but is readily apparent using your ears and consciousness (and a hi fidelity audio system).
While passing alternating current, every single wire in existance that is made by man will degrade the signal integrity while passing the alternating current; this is an indisputable fact. Some cables will degrade the electrical current less than others, and again this is one of the reasons for differences in audio cables: detail, soundstage, and image weight. There are other reasons for the differences as well including th ereasons mentioned above icluding: geometry, dialectrics, and metallurgy.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Don't think even the DarqueKnight can help you here unless he has some kind of new silver conductor theory that is unknown to the rest of science.
The basic understanding of conductor conductivity is very important.
The basic understanding of noise mechanisms in conductors is even more important.
Silver, and particularly polished surface silver, has superior noise properties which are important in audio applications. Silver has higher thermal conductivity and lower contact resistance than copper. Both of those properties contribute to silver's lower electrical noise characteristics.
However, if your audio components are not very low noise designs, then the additional expense of silver is usually a waste of money. In addition to this, some silver cable designs are poorly executed in such a way that they add harshness to high frequencies.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
These are good examples of the some of the audio myths.
You're dead wrong. The effects of those examples are common knowledge to every cable manufacturer.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Different metals, geometry, and dialectrics will affect the tonality of a speaker or IC cable. This may or may not be apparent using measuring devices, but is readily apparent using your ears and consciousness (and a hi fidelity audio system).
While passing alternating current, every single wire in existance that is made by man will degrade the signal integrity while passing the alternating current; this is an indisputable fact. Some cables will degrade the electrical current less than others, and again this is one of the reasons for differences in audio cables: detail, soundstage, and image weight. There are other reasons for the differences as well including th ereasons mentioned above icluding: geometry, dialectrics, and metallurgy.
Why should I provide them when you can list them for me. These are good examples of the some of the audio myths. There are typically no audible differences attributed to the items you have mentioned, unless the cables are unusually long. If it makes a difference, it can be measured either by signal amplitude, frequency and phase delay etc. Man's technology and measurement techniques are not so ancient as you would have one believe.
@xcapri79, you should supply them because not everyone agrees that what are being referred to as "audio myths" are in fact audio myths. In fact, there are a number of other forum members that have just replied that do not find metallurgy, dialectrics, and geometry to in fact be "audio myths".
By your logic, are we to assume that metallurgy, dialectrics, and geometry are "audio myths" simply because you and @kevintomb find them to be so? As Jesse and Ray said, cable manufacturers and electric engineers (including Ray) agree that metallurgy, dialectrics, and cable geometry all affect how a cable passes a signal. So, it seems that you find these cable properties to be "audio myths" because you find them to be "audio myths", not because it has been demonstarted and proven that they are so. So, I would ask @xcapri79 and @kevintomb, who is accurately viewing reality?
You state that there are "typically" no audible differences in geometry, dialectrics, and metals. This may be typical for you, but for the "typical" hi-fidelity audio enthusiast, it is common to hear differences in these aspects of cables (depending on the cables and equipment of course). This is why these people are hi-fidelity audio enthusiasts; so that they can enjoy furthering their audio experiences by improving their gear and therefore audio listening sessions. If one is not willing to put out the effort or money to take part in improving their hi-fidelity audio experience, then they will not hear the differences in the geomerty, dialectrics, and metallurgy in cables (not to mention other peices of gear).
Finally, regarding man's technology and measuring techniques: If man cannot even make a cable to perfectly transfer an electrical current through a cable, why should I believe that man can make equipment to measure the intricacies of differences in the cables we cannot make pass electrical signals perfectly?
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
I'm for more pie!
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[ if you want to get picky. Silver is only approximately a 6 percent better conductor than copper but is considerably more expensive.
Now we are getting somewhere. So 6% better....means copper is 6% less qualified ? Less able to carry a signal correctly ?
Now add up that 6% gain in speaker cables, 2 sets of IC"s, maybe one digital cable, and that's 24% better....supposedly anyway.
As you say too, it's more expensive, and THAT is what drives your opinions, not your ears.
No, it is about the resistance of the wire which is based on its material, gauge (wire size), length, and temperature, if you want to get picky. Silver is only approximately a 6 percent better conductor than copper but is considerably more expensive.Lets also take a different look, science has proven that silver is better than copper electrically speaking. Does that mean every copper cable is somehow not passing the signal correctly ? They are all broken ....inferior ?
A higher gauge copper wire will have less resistivity than a lower gauge silver wire of the same length.
You didn't quote me completely and for good reason. Here you show that you do not really understand the concept of conductor resistivity or the converse conductivity. Silver is a little better than copper for a given wire size, but if I increase the copper wire gauge by one, then copper is better for a lot less money. Don't think even the DarqueKnight can help you here unless he has some kind of new silver conductor theory that is unknown to the rest of science.
The basic understanding of conductor conductivity is very important.
So why on earth would one spend more money on X when Y is cheaper and would do the job better? Tonyb that is exactly what you are saying and it is what Kevin and I have been talking against.
wasn't talking about wire gauge. I do however agree that gauge is important depending on the application and is certainly measurable in how that also effects the signal.
See X, you and Kevin are more concerned by what is measureable or not. If you think that's all audio encompasses, then I'm sorry to tell you, your wrong. I can only assume you hold those beliefs from lack of experience or exposure to better audio gear/cables. Which for the most part, is simply fine if you enjoy where your at on your audio path.
Like I keep saying though, your audio path isn't going to mirror everyone's. To ridicule those with more exposure to all things audio related or are on a different path than yours is whats yanking the chain of the membership here. Is that not obvious to you ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Funny,
I heard a difference between 14 AWG "home depot" cable and
Monster cable I bought at Radio Shack when it was on super-sale
(as it was closing). The Monster cable was obviously a lower AWG
than the HD cable yet sounded better. How could that be?
The HD cable had more surface to carry signal. -
@kevintomb & @xcapri79
I have a question for you guys because I forget Kevin when you joined. I'm fairly certain X was already here for it.
@F1nut ran a demo for YEARS using MIT speaker cables. The Shotgun Series, and even recently with their new line (model name escapes me). You got a set of high end speaker cables, 2 sets of interconnects and some other misc stuff to demo for 2 week. The ONLY cost to you was shipping to the next person in line on the demo (plus insurance on the MSRP of the cables).
I participated and can attest there was a difference between what I had and the MIT cables. However the difference for me was not enough to justify the price differential. That may not be the case for many people out there.
Did either of you sign up for this demo? I don't believe so. This would have been a great opportunity for you to do some double blind tests, take all the measurements you wanted, etc with high end cables without having to really spend that much money. You could have satisfied your scientific curiosity with little to no outlay on your part. Yet NONE of the cable nay-sayers including some now banned members like Monk, JuJinku, etc, ever participated.
Can I ask why?"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
You're wasting your time Dan. They will simply dance around the question without giving you an actual answer just like they always do.
Notice how neither of them have even acknowledged my offer and challenge? They are so worried about being proven wrong that people actually can discern a difference in cables that they have to ignore anything that could disprove their theories and may out them as incorrect.
Again, my offer stands. They get free speakers if I am wrong and only have to admit they were wrong publicly if I am right.
But it shows cowardice in the extreme to not even be willing to accept a challenge based on their own double blind methodology because of the risk that they may have to admit defeat which their egos won't allow for.
Free speakers and a chance to shut people up...I would be all over that even if there was some slight risk of bruising my ego if I were wrong.
They are even welcome to measure the cables being used until their little hearts are content.
But $5 says they will continue to ignore the challenge just like their good buddy Monk did.
Funny how adamant Kevin was in his PMs to me about "you must have me confused with xcapri but we are nothing alike" and yet every word he types proves otherwise."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Kevin, I'm sorry pal, I disagree with your assessment. It is certainly ok to disagree on audio forums, we do it here all the time, even among our most respected members. The difference is, we do so with respect....most the time anyway.
You and X imply that anyone not associated with your beliefs are subject to placebo or some other unscientific altering phenomena. Instead, it would be more logical to simply say, " In my experiences, xyz matters ". In which case someone may ask you what exactly are your experiences, giving you an opportunity to explain without the confrontational nature you 2 are known for.
That's the whole basis for audio forums, sharing experiences, not tearing down those experiences you haven't yet experienced. Follow ? Others join an audio forum to further their knowledge of all things audio related. Always something to learn, even for the most astute. Nobody is going to agree with everyone, that's human nature, simply do so with some form of respect and everyone will get along. Because of the nature of audio in general, with all it's variables, different levels it's played on, many will have experiences you or I can never dream of. That doesn't make their experiences any less valid than yours or mine.
So what have we learned so far in all this ?
It's ok to agree to disagree
Treat people with respect
All opinions are welcome
Expand your experiences when you can, if you want to that is.
I'm also not oblivious to the fact that you and X have been treated somewhat harshly too. I can't speak for everyone, but I have been around here for awhile and can tell you generally on this forum, you get what you give. If you approach a poster with accusations of placebo or proclaiming what they are hearing is silly, your response isn't going to be cake and ice cream.
You with me so far ? Good....
Now, if everyone can agree to take a chill pill, lets abandon this thread and start over. Ask any questions you like in another thread, do so with respect and a willingness to learn and you may just be off to a fresh start. There is a reason why our membership has some of the most knowledgeable folks around even after they have moved on from Polk products. Tap into that, and your audio enjoyment may just move a few notches to the positive side.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Kevin, I'm sorry pal, I disagree with your assessment. It is certainly ok to disagree on audio forums, we do it here all the time, even among our most respected members. The difference is, we do so with respect....most the time anyway.
You and X imply that anyone not associated with your beliefs are subject to placebo or some other unscientific altering phenomena. Instead, it would be more logical to simply say, " In my experiences, xyz matters ". In which case someone may ask you what exactly are your experiences, giving you an opportunity to explain without the confrontational nature you 2 are known for.
That's the whole basis for audio forums, sharing experiences, not tearing down those experiences you haven't yet experienced. Follow ? Others join an audio forum to further their knowledge of all things audio related. Always something to learn, even for the most astute. Nobody is going to agree with everyone, that's human nature, simply do so with some form of respect and everyone will get along. Because of the nature of audio in general, with all it's variables, different levels it's played on, many will have experiences you or I can never dream of. That doesn't make their experiences any less valid than yours or mine.
So what have we learned so far in all this ?
It's ok to agree to disagree
Treat people with respect
All opinions are welcome
Expand your experiences when you can, if you want to that is.
I'm also not oblivious to the fact that you and X have been treated somewhat harshly too. I can't speak for everyone, but I have been around here for awhile and can tell you generally on this forum, you get what you give. If you approach a poster with accusations of placebo or proclaiming what they are hearing is silly, your response isn't going to be cake and ice cream.
You with me so far ? Good....
Now, if everyone can agree to take a chill pill, lets abandon this thread and start over. Ask any questions you like in another thread, do so with respect and a willingness to learn and you may just be off to a fresh start. There is a reason why our membership has some of the most knowledgeable folks around even after they have moved on from Polk products. Tap into that, and your audio enjoyment may just move a few notches to the positive side.
Very well said, couldn't agree more. We all have opinions and actual experiences to share and learn from. However, it requires an open mind.Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
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OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
tony really is going the extra mile. Tip of the cap to ya.
for me:
"Emotiva, for example, offers a thirty day trial which is more customer friendly for those who are busy." The Emotiva are the good solid low end cables a couple
of people are referring to. I sold them off at a loss. (and not here) -
**removed"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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If they presented their cable theories and how they came
to them at a college they would be respectfully listened to then
ripped to shreds. -
“This REtread” (fixed it for him)
1) Any cable in a audio video system no matter what quality the given system is has a job to do. That cable no matter what has to have the ability to pass along the signal from source point to receiving point without degrading. Once that is achieved , there is nothing more that given cable can do.
2) A cable can only lose signal not add to it.
3) A cable can't improve the signal in any way.
4) Once given cable passes the signal correctly, the job here is done.
5) Copper is the best overall conductor electrically.
6) Silver is a better conductor but cost ratio doesn't warrant the percentage IF an equal copper conductor has the ability to transfer signal 100%, then the silver conductor will yield no positive results.
7) A cable is not supposed to "restrict" any frequencies to achieve said goals , if they do then the design of the given cable faulty.
8) Proper Termination is a critical.
9) Gauge of cable is a critical.
10) Proper dielectric and shielding is a critical.
@xcapri79:
“@mantis, I agree with everything you have said. It is not new information, but it does confirm what I and many others have said, reported, and taught here and elsewhere over the years. Thank you for bravery in stating your views.”
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You make these assertions without acknowledging that every manufacturer has to build to suit a certain price point.
Why do they use electrolytic caps when metalized polypropylene/film capacitors don't suffer the same drawbacks? Price point.
Why do they use cheap sand-cast resistors when Mills and Duelund are much higher quality? Price point.
Why use cheap plastic binding posts when even gold plated brass is a more solid choice? Price point.
Ask *any* engineer if they could use the highest quality, non-compromise parts in their designs if cost was no object and 99 out of 100 of them will always take the better parts."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
To play the answer a question with a question game,
why do people take speakers and amps and hotrod them?There is wiring inside a floor or a bookshelf speaker. We can agree on that.
Anything special about it?
If silver is so good, then which manufacturer uses silver speaker wire inside their speakers?
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There are so many posts, it is hard to keep up. Actually I discussed doing some scientific testing (listening and measurements) on cables with the DarqueKnight and my friend Dr. Q when we last met. The logistics, timing, and details may be difficult for all to agree on.
By the way, it was one of the last things we discussed as there were more interesting things to talk about.
Everyone has busy schedules and I wouldn't begrudge anyone that by any means.
But you're basically admitting that you haven't done the research of your own to enforce your opinions.
Some of us have. Some of us have cycled through more cables than they would like to admit to find synergy that really does exist.
Don't discount someone's experiences because they differ from yours.
Einstein never discounted anything. He kept an open mind and created new theories that didn't exist before him. And as time went on, his theories opened up avenues that no one before him had ever considered. And he was a lowly patent clerk...with no degrees to speak of.
Before you go all haywire, I am not comparing anyone here to Einstein but simply using it as an example that just because you read somewhere how something is *supposed* to behave a certain way, you can never discount that something may be going on beyond what our severely limited human intellect can explain.
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
![[Deleted User]](https://w4.vanillicon.com/40bc09a87daec053937ab0249c85e591_100.png)
This discussion has been closed.