Mantis version about the TRUTH about signal cables.

mantis

Hello all,
I wanted to take a moment and clear the air for some , probably gonna piss off many others and open the eyes of some who probably see the following points but are not sure if what they are experiencing is true or not. This tread is not to start a cable war once again or have people posting ignorant things one way or another.
Look people , most of you love this hobby and would not be in here if you didn't but lets be brutally honest for once and clear the air finally about the vast mystery behind cables No one wants to really say.
I'll be completely honest , I'm pretty tired of reading about it one way or another and find is sad that most people who spend there hard earned money on products that simply don't do what most claim they do.
I would love for this thread to be the very first of it's kind where we collectively can talk the very truth about cables and give our decades of members a reference point to make good decisions when purchasing cables of any kind for there loved systems.
Also if you post on this thread anything but something helpful, I'm gonna report you and have you removed from this tread. This is not a pissing or measuring contest. I want this to be a place where you can state your experience and stand behind it.
Do not come in here and post quotes from other web sites or anything YOU personally have no experience with. Understand this, I want us all to enjoy this topic without attitude. You will not receive any from me as I'm here just to pass along information as a Hobbiest and professional. What you do with my information is your own business. We don't all have to agree. You can state you don't agree and thats perfectly fine as I'll respect your experience only not something you went and read about without testing it yourself. There are way to many things online you can read about that simply are not true. You can believe if you want but I'm here to share the truth if you want to except it or not.

IF YOU AGREE WITH THE ABOVE THEN PLEASE PROCEED, IF YOU DON'T THEN PLEASE LEAVE NOW.

I also want to point out that I am not an engineer or a scientist. So a little about me might help those who don't know who I am.
I'm a long time Musician who grew up in a musician generation family. Piano , Drums , Guitar , Wind and vocals for generations. I personally play guitar , sing and can play piano , drums and Bass.
My passion for audio and video was born into me. My first experience that really got me going was my Uncle with his Monitor 10B's. I never thought it was possible to hear Audio sound from a home system to sound close to what it sounds like when you make it yourself.
I've working in the field since 1999 and have worked for a number of different companies.
I also own an Audio Video Automation company.


I'm gonna say this and you take it for what it's worth to you from a guy who has personally tested cables for decades , works in the field and has learned from Audio engineers about cables.
I have spent countless hours with speaker designers , Audio and video component and wire engineers and I have learned a great deal of truth in my time.
I'm gonna start by say this.....

Any cable in a audio video system no matter what quality the given system is has a job to do. That cable no matter what has to have the ability to pass along the signal from source point to receiving point without degrading.
Once that is achieved , there is nothing more that given cable can do.
Just stop and think about that above statement I just made. Why would you purchase a cable? Well if you have a CD player and want to transfer the sound out of it using the internal DAC's , you will need a pair of analog cables. You selected this CD player for a number of reasons , wouldn't it be nice to be able to hear what it can do? It take a pair of analog cables to pass the signal from the CD analog out to the preamp CD in. Thats it folks , thats all it has to do.
Over the decades many engineers from many different companies have had different opinions.But if you listen with an open mind, you start to hear the very truth they all speak one way or another.
Then when you learn from the source and receiving companies what it takes to get this job done , things start to add up.
Then you have this point where you might be very angry like I have been from the lies from marketing , reps and sales teams that all have a vested interest in selling you these products.
Now remember this, as many bad companies out there that make cables, there are an equal amount of ones that make great quality cables.

Here are some points I have learned.

1) A cable is not supposed to " Tune" a system.
When I was told that, I got pissed off as I thought that using high quality cables was a way to fine tune a system to perfection.
2) A cable can only lose signal not add to it.
3) A cable can't improve the signal in any way.
4) Once given cable passes the signal correctly, the job here is done.
5) Copper is the best overall conductor electrically.
6) Silver is a better conductor but cost ratio doesn't warrant the percentage IF an equal copper conductor has the ability to transfer signal 100%, then the silver conductor will yield no positive results.
7) A cable is not supposed to "restrict" any frequencies to achieve said goals , if they do then the design of the given cable faulty.
8) Proper Termination is a critical.
9) Gauge of cable is a critical.
10) Proper dielectric and shielding is a critical.

Now what I also learned in my time is and again this knowledge doesn't just come from personal quest as a Hobbiest , it comes from being a professional and learning first hand and from the people who make this stuff.

One engineer told me straight up and I quote " there are tons of cable companies out there that build these fancy dressed up cables that yield little or poor quality results. Many people purchase these cables due to strong marketing hype and how damn cool they look. Most of these companies who claim these wild results in better quality audio and video the very tests conducted are from vested interest groups who profit from the said cable company."
I personally learned this myself as over my years of personal testing and Professionally witnessing things in thousands of other peoples systems that that statement is so very true.

So for my closing thoughts on this opening

There are many good quality cable companies to select from. Price only has meaning to the person who sees value one way or another.
I'm not here to tell you how to spend your money. I have no vested interest in any wire companies at all. I do not get paid from any of them or have loyalty to any of them except the ones that have proven to me that work the way they are supposed to.

I really hope this thread can go on for a while as lets face it, we all love this hobby and cables are a big part of it especially for us who just love to love them.
I'd like to have someone start a topic like analog audio cables or speaker wire an lets dig into that topic and discover or uncover as many truths as we collectively can. During those conversations lets not throw rocks at each other for any reason , if you disagree with someones points , thats completely fine just don't call anyone names or try to make them believe your point of view. Make your case on your views and let that be that.

So can Club Polk handle this type of thread or did I just waste my time?

vmaxer

@mantis I am hoping the thread goes as you desire and I think a lot of members can,,BUT, I think we all know a few that absolutely will not.

I am not nearly experienced as you but I do know cables can and do make a difference from my own experience.

I may post more later, will see how this goes first.

Thanks and good luck.

V

tonyb

You wasted your time sorry to say.

Just speaking for myself, I don't agree that once a cable correctly passes a signal, it's done all it can. Too many other variables goes into how a cable sounds and yes....people do use them to "tune" a system to their particular preferences the same way one chooses a cdp or a pre amp. Every piece you choose in your system is to 'tune" the sound. Even the speakers you choose tune the sound. Every single thing in your system tunes the sound to what your preferences may be.

There is no such thing about "truth" in cables. How can there be if we all hear differently, have different likes and dislikes, biases, experiences ?

tonyb

Bravery ? Dan is simply stating his opinion in a clear and descriptive manner and I respect him for that. Even though I don't agree with some of his statements, it doesn't matter, it's still ok to agree to disagree.

Your "truth" in audio isn't necessarily mine, nor mine yours.....and that's the truth.

[Deleted User]

As it has been said here and elsewhere, if you cannot hear a difference, there is no difference. I agree that you should not here a difference between cables and decent
cable is a good enough cable or should be. This is just not the case however. It
took me a while but I think I figured it out. You would have to spend an order of magnitude more money on equipment to get the positive changes you can get
with cable. As stated by members that have WAY more experience than I, cables have sound signatures.

F1nut

or try to make them believe your point of view.

Hmmm....that's exactly what you are trying to do.

[Deleted User]

Someone had to take the first shot over the bow...

F1nut wrote: »

or try to make them believe your point of view.

Hmmm....that's exactly what you are trying to do.

F1nut

Someone had to take the first shot over the bow...

No, just pointing out the obvious.

F1nut

Dan, I'm going to use this one example to make another point.

1) A cable is not supposed to " Tune" a system.
When I was told that, I got pissed off as I thought that using high quality cables was a way to fine tune a system to perfection.

You were told that, so you believed it rather than your own personal experiences as evidenced by all the cable reviews you have posted over the years, which clearly showed that cables have a sound signature. So, how can they not tune a system?

Even your current flavor of the month Audioquest cables offer many different models, all of which have a different sound signature.

Like I said previously and Tony has stated in this thread, every piece of gear, including cables and speakers used in a rig tune it.

[Deleted User]

What I meant to say was HE was taking a position.
Not a bad what to start a conversation.
As my prof used to say, "don't be so open-minded your
brains fall out."

F1nut wrote: »

Someone had to take the first shot over the bow...

No, just pointing out the obvious.

Emlyn

F1nut wrote: »

Like I said previously and Tony has stated in this thread, every piece of gear, including cables and speakers used in a rig tune it.

Agree. There is no "perfect" conductor in the audio cable realm. Almost every audio cable is "adequate" in that it can conduct an audio signal from one place to another in a way that would make most people happy, or at least not willing to spend more than they already have to watch a movie at home. There's nothing wrong with that approach, but neither is there anything wrong with someone spending their own money trying different things. When someone goes a step further with cables, it is to use a cable as an additional component in the signal path to achieve a desired effect. To give one example, I am aware that PS Audio Statement speaker cables and interconnects are not "perfect" signal conductors because they impart their own effects on signal transmission. However, their effects are some that I enjoy in the end result of what comes out of some speakers, and not so much with other speakers. In my case, the example is in tuning the sound quality for the better to my ears with Focal speakers (already bright but toned down) and for the worse with Spendors (already rounded off highs further diminished). I ran a pair of DIY type speaker cables, which were perfectly adequate cables, with the Spendor speakers before and the soundstage collapsed. Using the same gear with a pair of Audioquest speaker cables with their DBS system made the speakers come back to life to my ears better than any other speaker cable I've used with them.

For installing home theater gear run from an AV receiver, in most cases it will not matter to most end users what cables are used unless they have money to burn, so it makes perfect sense to use whatever is adequate for the task as long as it meets building codes. Cables derived from Belden products are adequate for this purpose, and I do use them. I even use them in certain places for high-end two channel systems where I have never been able to tell a difference in performance. In my case, it's when used as digital coaxial cable. Others have different experiences in that area though.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

There is no such thing about "truth" in cables. How can there be if we all hear differently, have different likes and dislikes, biases, experiences ?

The truth I'm referring to is what many engineers I spoke to at length about this very topic all told me the same thing so I figured there has to be some truth in what they say coming from the horses mouth so to speak.
I do however respect all your view points as they come from your personal experience and I feel nothing can replace that.
I'll use some of your words as my own in the fact that your truth is your own as is mine. I also agree we all don't have to agree but having the ability to discuss it like adults is all I was after.

Nice job man.

mantis

F1nut wrote: »

or try to make them believe your point of view.

Hmmm....that's exactly what you are trying to do.

Either you mis read my words or my words where not clear. What I'm doing here is sharing my experience, you get to do with it anything you want, nothing or use it your call man.

mantis

F1nut wrote: »

Dan, I'm going to use this one example to make another point.

1) A cable is not supposed to " Tune" a system.
When I was told that, I got pissed off as I thought that using high quality cables was a way to fine tune a system to perfection.

You were told that, so you believed it rather than your own personal experiences as evidenced by all the cable reviews you have posted over the years, which clearly showed that cables have a sound signature. So, how can they not tune a system?

Even your current flavor of the month Audioquest cables offer many different models, all of which have a different sound signature.

Like I said previously and Tony has stated in this thread, every piece of gear, including cables and speakers used in a rig tune it.

So to go deeper into this topic,
I was heavy into trying out as many different brands and levels if you will and came across what you remember what I posted about my experience. So I started to talk to the wire companies in why do I hear differences in these cables when both of them are claiming to be pure and allow all the music to flow perfectly , time corrected so all the frequencies have the ability to arrive at the exact time as they should etc etc etc.
I was answered that any cable that makes notable differences in sound is coloring the signal in some way or another. You should hear exactly what has come out of the source to point. Amps , Sources and speakers all are voiced in some way or another spending on brand and intent from the maker but the real goal of a conductor is to be just that. Conduct the signal without picking up anything along the way or losing something.
I also got one cable makes to admit that their cables are tuned so the Bass is stronger making them more desirable for those who think bass is more important. He said it's easy to pull this off with windings an thickness of each conductor in the cable strands.

Personally I was on a quest to find cables that do not color the sound or as little as possible depending on my wallet. I wanted cables to get out of the way if you will and let me worry about all the other factors I gotta deal with in ones system meaning room , speaker placement , speakers , amps , sources, recordings etc etc etc.

Over my years asking these hard to answer for some reason or another questions the basic thing I was told from non wire companies is that a cable shouldn't be designed to " tune" a system but allow the signal to pass along properly and thats it. Most even very high end amp company guys too me this and they select cables for testing their amp designs based on this. One guy told me " how can I voice my amp IF the cables I'm using are not allowing me to hear my work?" I told him that makes a lot of sense from a design point of view.

Speaker companies build these bad **** chambers to test their frequency response so if the cables alter that how can they make accurate measurements on what needs to be adjusted and what is in tune or correct if you will?

So my friend thats where that comment of experience comes from.

mantis

Emlyn wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Like I said previously and Tony has stated in this thread, every piece of gear, including cables and speakers used in a rig tune it.

Agree. There is no "perfect" conductor in the audio cable realm. Almost every audio cable is "adequate" in that it can conduct an audio signal from one place to another in a way that would make most people happy, or at least not willing to spend more than they already have to watch a movie at home. There's nothing wrong with that approach, but neither is there anything wrong with someone spending their own money trying different things. When someone goes a step further with cables, it is to use a cable as an additional component in the signal path to achieve a desired effect. To give one example, I am aware that PS Audio Statement speaker cables and interconnects are not "perfect" signal conductors because they impart their own effects on signal transmission. However, their effects are some that I enjoy in the end result of what comes out of some speakers, and not so much with other speakers. In my case, the example is in tuning the sound quality for the better to my ears with Focal speakers (already bright but toned down) and for the worse with Spendors (already rounded off highs further diminished). I ran a pair of DIY type speaker cables, which were perfectly adequate cables, with the Spendor speakers before and the soundstage collapsed. Using the same gear with a pair of Audioquest speaker cables with their DBS system made the speakers come back to life to my ears better than any other speaker cable I've used with them.

For installing home theater gear run from an AV receiver, in most cases it will not matter to most end users what cables are used unless they have money to burn, so it makes perfect sense to use whatever is adequate for the task as long as it meets building codes. Cables derived from Belden products are adequate for this purpose, and I do use them. I even use them in certain places for high-end two channel systems where I have never been able to tell a difference in performance. In my case, it's when used as digital coaxial cable. Others have different experiences in that area though.

I take if from your post your an installer?

[Deleted User]

But wait, I want to put all my money into the speakers.
Nothing should get in the way of what they were designed
to sound like. Oh wait...
I agree with everything you (they) say. It's just not the way it is though.
If it was, we would all own Emotiva.
Like the poet said, synergy is a ****.

[Deleted User]

xcapri79 wrote: »

rednedtugent wrote: »

If it was, we would all own Emotiva.

@mantis isn't saying this at all. He was specifically discussing cables and their function.

No he wasn't. He was discussing amp engineering.
I use Emotiva as an example because I have them and they claim little colorization.
Taken from the XPA-1L overview page:
"Audiophiles know that Class A amps sound the best. There is zero crossover distortion, and the output devices are biased up to their most linear operating range."

Trying to get on point again, there is a difference with some speaker cables
and interconnects so why not use it to your advantage? I like the OP approach
and if he can get the sound he wants with his amp and speaker choice and
Home depot speaker cable then great. But what if

[Deleted User]

Wait a sec. We agree that there is a difference between
speaker cable and say, a coat hanger right? Some of this
change is subtle and after a while of listening it is hard to
pick out. Your brain adapts or something.

mikeyb128

The great cable debate is getting a little boring. I respect people's opinions and experiences. But this never ends nicely. It always turns into a p!ssing match. And quite frankly there's been a lot of p!ssing lately. Let's not turn This thread into a debate again. Please!

[Deleted User]

Agreed. God bless you in your travels.

tonyb

Everything in your system colors the sound....speakers included. Whats on your disc or digital file has already been colored in the studio so your starting with a colored sound. To get the sound unchanged from the disc/file to the speakers, the signal has to go through too many variables to not additionally add coloration to the sound. Conversions, cables, dacs, pre amps, amps, receivers or processors, etc. Even the room is used to tune a system, room treatments and bass traps. All to tailor the sound to YOUR personal preferences, after all, that's why all these products exist to begin with isn't it ? The purist in audio will contend the shortest signal path from source to speakers is the best approach. They're probably right.

We constantly tell people to not pay too much attention to manufacturer specs, especially with speakers. Those specs are brought about in special chambers for testing, do any of you live in a special chamber at home ? No you don't, which is why the room will certainly change the sound....and the specs. Specs are to be used as a guide, not gospel.

There is far too many variables in audio to lay out blanket statements for all. Everything matters in the chain, and the room, and the person to say this or that doesn't matter. If your happy at a certain point in your audio journey and you wish to stop and just enjoy the tunes, cool....rock on. That doesn't mean others need to stop at the same point you do, nor does it mean going any further is foolish.

B Run

I'm a firm believer in cables making a difference from my own person experience. However here's my question, and its a legit question not trying to start anything. Lets take yesterday for example, I hooked up my Signal Cable Analog 2 XLR's and a nice pair of Pepster's IC's with regular rca's. I love that I can hook them both up and flip a switch on the amp to switch them, so I wanted to compare them. Listening to a few songs on each and then switching, I could definitely tell the difference between the two. SC's were a little more forward and edgy yet had more detail, while Pepster's had a smoother more laid back top end and slightly richer sound to them. No matter what I played I got the same general comparison between the two. So how can you say one is right or wrong, its more of a general preference. Maybe the SC's were exaggerating the treble, or maybe Pepsters were rolling it off? Maybe neither one were delivering the sound as recorded and both colored it and i've never even heard it without coloration. How can you say one is right or true even if you compare 5 cables? If they all 5 sound different aren't they all coloring the sound? If MIT sounds the best to me but their 30k Oracle sounds absolutely perfect, is everything down they line from those then colored or degraded one step down at a time until you reach entry level?

BlueFox

I would not be surprised if both of those cables measured the same using current knowledge of what to measure.

Mantis has the right idea. What comes out of the cable should be identical to what went into it. That is one reason why I like Shunyata interconnects and speaker cables. Their technology allows the cable to pass a 10kHz square wave with no degradation. Of course, the main reason why I like them is they also sound great.

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

Of course, the main reason why I like them is they also sound great.

....and that should be anyone's bottom line.

George Grand

More BS from someone who thinks very highly of himself.

vmaxer

George Grand wrote: »

More BS from someone who thinks very highly of himself.

Which one??

George Grand

OP

mantis

B Run wrote: »

I'm a firm believer in cables making a difference from my own person experience. However here's my question, and its a legit question not trying to start anything. Lets take yesterday for example, I hooked up my Signal Cable Analog 2 XLR's and a nice pair of Pepster's IC's with regular rca's. I love that I can hook them both up and flip a switch on the amp to switch them, so I wanted to compare them. Listening to a few songs on each and then switching, I could definitely tell the difference between the two. SC's were a little more forward and edgy yet had more detail, while Pepster's had a smoother more laid back top end and slightly richer sound to them. No matter what I played I got the same general comparison between the two. So how can you say one is right or wrong, its more of a general preference. Maybe the SC's were exaggerating the treble, or maybe Pepsters were rolling it off? Maybe neither one were delivering the sound as recorded and both colored it and i've never even heard it without coloration. How can you say one is right or true even if you compare 5 cables? If they all 5 sound different aren't they all coloring the sound? If MIT sounds the best to me but their 30k Oracle sounds absolutely perfect, is everything down they line from those then colored or degraded one step down at a time until you reach entry level?

Great response ,
Most if not all cable companies say that their flagship cables are the truth and everything under them is a sacrifice to meet a price point so many can own nice cables maybe not perfect but as good as they can be for the amount they are willing to spend.
My understanding of that is that only the top of the line cables are true and thats what it takes to pass the signal from one point to another. I personally have a hard time believing that but thats what you will learn from the Cable companies.
When you speak to source and amp makers , they have a different opinion and use what they find can allow them to build and test their equipment without having the cables color up the signal like most of them do.
I've been asking this question my entire career. "What does it take to pass the signal correctly?".

[Deleted User]

"What does it take to pass the signal correctly?".
Electrical potential.

drumminman

Mantis, in your original post you left out an important factor in what determines cable synergy with the rest of the system: design geometry. For example, in SC's a braided litz design vs parallel runs. Type of wire used: solid core vs. stranded vs. ribbon. This has a dramatic effect on the quality of the signal passed.

mantis

drumminman wrote: »

Mantis, in your original post you left out an important factor in what determines cable synergy with the rest of the system: design geometry. For example, in SC's a braided litz design vs parallel runs. Type of wire used: solid core vs. stranded vs. ribbon. This has a dramatic effect on the quality of the signal passed.

I put so much in my opening post I left out quite a bit after I edited it. But your right in your points here.