Quality of things anymore

mantis

Whats up everyone?
When I was younger I always heard my grandfather say " things are built the way they use to". I always thought he was just use to the way things where and he didn't really except modern ways.
Today I find myself feeling as he did then. I find that most things are not built as well as they where even just a few years ago.
It started in our industry, just take a look at TV's and Blu ray player. When in history have you seen such poorly built products? We have more failures today then ever in the history of our business. I can't believe the failure rate of some products , it's a wonder they stay in business.
Even my almost 1 year old 2014 Nissan Pathfinder, I strongly feel it's not built as well as my last 3 Nissan vehicles.
So really does anyone know of any products they feel are better in quality then in the past?

I'm getting pretty tired of lower quality.

ken brydson

Post I started about lawnmowers a while ago definitely relates...

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/161469/got-2-hondas-now/p1

gudnoyez

Yeah my water heater of 18 years died got a bigger fancier one I told the person who I got it from well I should be good for another 18 years or so he chuckled and said 7-8 years is about how long they last anymore! Samsung could not fix the 4k tv I got from them it was in the shop twice and someone came out a third time and said the repair parts were all faulty finally got my money back and got a Sony.

jeremymarcinko

Volkswagen, Polaris, vinyl flooring, baby diapers, domestic pickups, Dixon pencils, cell phone batteries. ..batteries in general, eyeglasses, weed killer, water, latex paint, dominos pizza, ed medication, epiphone, McDonald's coffee, motorcycle tires, tires in general, triumph motorcycles,....

aprazer402

Agreed, mass marketed "consumer" durables: appliances, home and garden, most furniture, electronics, etc. seem to be manufactured so they have to be repurchased more frequently and are made of low quality materials with, as mantis observed, high failure rates . As always the good stuffs gonna cost you. I have no ideas on how to change the Wal-Mart stuff is okay mentality many have. The make it because we buy it.

Nightfall

Things are being made cheaper and cheaper because consumers demand it due to the declining dollar and minimum wage staying the same while costs for necessities go up. Food, gas, everything is more expensive while people aren't making any more money than when it was cheaper.

jeremymarcinko

And an astonishing amount of consumer electronics get returned and then "no fault found" but sold again at a much lower price. Manufacturers need lightweight products to reduce the extra shipping expenses.

rpf65

A lot of it has to do with advancements in engineering, and of course many people not having a clue about simple math, let alone routine.

Car company wants a tranny to last 75k miles, they can get really close. Can drop new retail cost by 1k or so. Good or bad, depends on your point of view.

Same with electronics. Don't blow the dust out every 3 months or so, lasts 2 or 4 years. Clean it, could go 10 plus years. As far as build quality in electronics, you're comparing apples to oranges. Your smart phone has as much computing power as NASA had during the Apollo missions. Price difference, about 6 zeros. I consider it bargain priced, even if it lasts only 5 years.

tonyb

Good points all. I'm reminded of a saying we have around here that can apply to this topic.....everything matters.

Few stats to throw out there.

Wages have not increased as a whole compared to inflation for what....20+ years.
Your dollar in just the last 10 years has lost 20-25% of it's value.
More than 50% of the working population make under 30k a year....surprising huh ?

Given just those 3 stats, can you see the success of the Wal-marts of the world ? Can you see what companies are marketing towards ? Can you see why they must eventually go offshore for parts/products ?

What to hear another fantastic stat ? Something like 2/3rds of you live paycheck to paycheck. Carry more debt than ever before.

Now you also see the allure of a government that hands out freebies. Nobody in my opinion though are asking the right questions. Like, where are all the good paying jobs ? All these regulations and freebies add costs to the bottom line of business that eventually get passed on to you....the end user. So even though some things sound fine in theory, nobody looks at the end result.

The quality of products has many facets to it.....everything matters. Instead of looking to bring people up, to afford quality products, we cater to keeping them in a box, in debt, and sell them cheap products with higher profit ratios.

Nightfall

tonyb wrote: »

Good points all. I'm reminded of a saying we have around here that can apply to this topic.....everything matters.

Few stats to throw out there.

Wages have not increased as a whole compared to inflation for what....20+ years.
Your dollar in just the last 10 years has lost 20-25% of it's value.
More than 50% of the working population make under 30k a year....surprising huh ?

Given just those 3 stats, can you see the success of the Wal-marts of the world ? Can you see what companies are marketing towards ? Can you see why they must eventually go offshore for parts/products ?

What to hear another fantastic stat ? Something like 2/3rds of you live paycheck to paycheck. Carry more debt than ever before.

Now you also see the allure of a government that hands out freebies. Nobody in my opinion though are asking the right questions. Like, where are all the good paying jobs ? All these regulations and freebies add costs to the bottom line of business that eventually get passed on to you....the end user. So even though some things sound fine in theory, nobody looks at the end result.

The quality of products has many facets to it.....everything matters. Instead of looking to bring people up, to afford quality products, we cater to keeping them in a box, in debt, and sell them cheap products with higher profit ratios.

So much this.

All the while CEO's are making record salaries. Way more money than anybody can even use.

tonyb

Nightfall wrote: »

All the while CEO's are making record salaries. Way more money than anybody can even use.

So....become a CEO then. I do admit it's out of whack though, but not the reason quality of products has gone south.

In comparison, a good actor can make more than a CEO in one good movie. Nobody bangs on them, right ?

Another aspect to this to ask yourself is.....does flooding the country with cheap labor drive wages up....or down ?

Business has one basic model.....profits. If you make it too hard for them to prosper, they will find a way regardless.

tonyb

I've been around a few CEO's in my day, my wife more than me by a country mile. Many big companies too. I can tell you without a doubt that many CEO'S are no smarter, or hard working than your favorite waitress, landscaper, Policeman, etc.

Know what they ARE good at ? Arranging numbers to appear a certain way to paint a picture of success. Creating a path for future growth with the help of other executives. Some have absolutely zero experience in the business they run, their products, or what they offer. In other words, they stretch the truth, even out right lie, because it all justifies the ends.....their bonus.

Seen it way too often. The bean counters and board members say you must reach a certain head count, regardless if it's detrimental to the business at hand. Good workers get fired, laid off....all so the upper echelon can reach that bonus. In the mean time, the workers left are asked to do more to make up for those let go.....with no pay increase yet. Customer service faulters, accounts get lost, more good people get fired, more get hired to replace and the cycle continues.

What does all this mean ? Crap rolls downhill folks.....your parents and grandparents I'm sure told you that. Is it better to be at the top of the hill, or the bottom ? Unfortunately we have the vast majority of the population at the bottom of that hill.

Whats that got to do with quality in products ? Quality has to be compromised to meet price points all those people at the bottom of the hill can afford.....and possibly go into debt to afford.

So again, in my eyes, it's about lifting people up and making it easier for small business to prosper. What is being done on those fronts ? What is being done to work against those fronts ? You tell me.....

westmassguy

tonyb wrote: »

I've been around a few CEO's in my day, my wife more than me by a country mile. Many big companies too. I can tell you without a doubt that many CEO'S are no smarter, or hard working than your favorite waitress, landscaper, Policeman, etc.

Know what they ARE good at ? Arranging numbers to appear a certain way to paint a picture of success. Creating a path for future growth with the help of other executives. Some have absolutely zero experience in the business they run, their products, or what they offer. In other words, they stretch the truth, even out right lie, because it all justifies the ends.....their bonus.

Seen it way too often. The bean counters and board members say you must reach a certain head count, regardless if it's detrimental to the business at hand. Good workers get fired, laid off....all so the upper echelon can reach that bonus. In the mean time, the workers left are asked to do more to make up for those let go.....with no pay increase yet. Customer service faulters, accounts get lost, more good people get fired, more get hired to replace and the cycle continues.

What does all this mean ?

They travel in packs too Tony. They come in as a group, get the stock prices up, get their bonuses, golden parachutes, and they're off to the next company.

tonyb

westmassguy wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

I've been around a few CEO's in my day, my wife more than me by a country mile. Many big companies too. I can tell you without a doubt that many CEO'S are no smarter, or hard working than your favorite waitress, landscaper, Policeman, etc.

Know what they ARE good at ? Arranging numbers to appear a certain way to paint a picture of success. Creating a path for future growth with the help of other executives. Some have absolutely zero experience in the business they run, their products, or what they offer. In other words, they stretch the truth, even out right lie, because it all justifies the ends.....their bonus.

Seen it way too often. The bean counters and board members say you must reach a certain head count, regardless if it's detrimental to the business at hand. Good workers get fired, laid off....all so the upper echelon can reach that bonus. In the mean time, the workers left are asked to do more to make up for those let go.....with no pay increase yet. Customer service faulters, accounts get lost, more good people get fired, more get hired to replace and the cycle continues.

What does all this mean ?

They travel in packs too Tony. They come in as a group, get the stock prices up, get their bonuses, golden parachutes, and they're off to the next company.

Absolutely pal, without a doubt. They walk away with a big prize while good people wind up in the unemployment line.

Begs to question exactly what is being taught at Harvard. Used to be men of power had some conscious to their decisions, not so much anymore. Get what you can, while you can, damn the rest.....seems to be the mentality being groomed in our upper learning institutions.

westmassguy

tonyb wrote: »

westmassguy wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

I've been around a few CEO's in my day, my wife more than me by a country mile. Many big companies too. I can tell you without a doubt that many CEO'S are no smarter, or hard working than your favorite waitress, landscaper, Policeman, etc.

Know what they ARE good at ? Arranging numbers to appear a certain way to paint a picture of success. Creating a path for future growth with the help of other executives. Some have absolutely zero experience in the business they run, their products, or what they offer. In other words, they stretch the truth, even out right lie, because it all justifies the ends.....their bonus.

Seen it way too often. The bean counters and board members say you must reach a certain head count, regardless if it's detrimental to the business at hand. Good workers get fired, laid off....all so the upper echelon can reach that bonus. In the mean time, the workers left are asked to do more to make up for those let go.....with no pay increase yet. Customer service faulters, accounts get lost, more good people get fired, more get hired to replace and the cycle continues.

What does all this mean ?

They travel in packs too Tony. They come in as a group, get the stock prices up, get their bonuses, golden parachutes, and they're off to the next company.

Absolutely pal, without a doubt. They walk away with a big prize while good people wind up in the unemployment line.

Begs to question exactly what is being taught at Harvard. Used to be men of power had some conscious to their decisions, not so much anymore. Get what you can, while you can, damn the rest.....seems to be the mentality being groomed in our upper learning institutions.

And who's teaching at these Ivy League Schools? Lots of Tenured "Scholars" who have their own racket going. Not saying there aren't hard working Teaching Professors out there, but there are a lot who are riding the gravy train now. Come to think of it, my Senior Senator was one of them.

tonyb

Well, aren't politicians and CEO's cut from the same cloth ? Groomed in the same place ? So why expect anything different ?

Getting off track here, but just wanted to make the case that everything matters in quality products....or lack there of.

Looking at 4k TV's the other day, one thing was apparent with almost all of them. The thin size leaves no room for speakers of any quality thus their sound is way sub par. What that does is force you into buying a soundbar to accommodate that over priced tv. Even more money you have to spend.

Price of new TV's, streaming services, cable, soundbars......and my thoughts go back to watching tv on a crt tv that was basically free.

sucks2beme

You want to fix a name on why products in the last decade have dropped?
Walmart. They have bullied all their suppliers to cut costs.
They have forced a lot of manufacturing offshore. And they set pricing targets
that make companies cheapen products to fit the target price.
Same thing with a big retailer like Guitar center. Gibson and Fender make
extra cheap model lines just for Guitar Center.
Cars are a different story. Modern cars run pretty good. The newer tech
means those nasty cold idle issues that used to kill the life of an engine are gone.
Not all brands are that good, but the better ones run for 200k.
The prices, on the other hand, are running up a lot faster than wages.
The big issue in the last couple of years seems to be related to new regulations for higher MPG. That means new tech and cutting weight.

Msabot1

mantis wrote: »

Whats up everyone?
When I was younger I always heard my grandfather say " things are built the way they use to". I always thought he was just use to the way things where and he didn't really except modern ways.
Today I find myself feeling as he did then. I find that most things are not built as well as they where even just a few years ago.
It started in our industry, just take a look at TV's and Blu ray player. When in history have you seen such poorly built products? We have more failures today then ever in the history of our business. I can't believe the failure rate of some products , it's a wonder they stay in business.
Even my almost 1 year old 2014 Nissan Pathfinder, I strongly feel it's not built as well as my last 3 Nissan vehicles.
So really does anyone know of any products they feel are better in quality then in the past?

I'm getting pretty tired of lower quality.

Yea..I can relate to your Nissan's...back in 87 I bought a real nice Pathfinder...although it was just a two door..it was built like a half truck ,you could go anywhere in that vehicle...no where near what the modern Pathfinders are..you could not subject the new ones to the conditions that that old 87 one got put through...but I think that the whole concept of that truck has changed..like a lot of things these days..the name has stayed the same..but the guts are quite a bit different...

tonyb

sucks2beme wrote: »

You want to fix a name on why products in the last decade have dropped?
Walmart. They have bullied all their suppliers to cut costs.
They have forced a lot of manufacturing offshore. And they set pricing targets
that make companies cheapen products to fit the target price.
Same thing with a big retailer like Guitar center. Gibson and Fender make
extra cheap model lines just for Guitar Center.
Cars are a different story. Modern cars run pretty good. The newer tech
means those nasty cold idle issues that used to kill the life of an engine are gone.
Not all brands are that good, but the better ones run for 200k.
The prices, on the other hand, are running up a lot faster than wages.
The big issue in the last couple of years seems to be related to new regulations for higher MPG. That means new tech and cutting weight.

C'mon man, if Wal-mart didn't have a consumer base wanting cheaper products, they wouldn't need to beat up manufacturers for products made for them. I mean....the dollar store sells stuff for a buck too, nobody bangs on them for under cutting the competition. Amazon....same thing.

Point is, there's a market for cheap goods.....and with over 50% of the people making less than 30k a year, you think their business plan is a good one ? There is a market for every price point. When your paycheck increases, you walk the floors of Lexus/Mercedes, Saks Fifth Ave., Pass labs, Boulder, etc.

Look, it's like this.....thousands of companies, even government agencies, are wanting a piece of your paycheck. If that paycheck is small, then they know you only have x amount of dollars to spend. The difference with government is they can take their cut of your paycheck by force, business can't do that so they adjust to entice you to spend.....even go into debt. The whole shebang revolves around you spending as much as possible from that paycheck.

This topic lends itself to many areas of contention. A lot has to do with consequences of other actions many do not see or want to see. Which reminds me of yet another saying.....you reap what you sow.

Nightfall

tonyb, you don't have Netflix do you? You should watch a show called "Inequality For All"

tonyb

No...don't have it. Gotta tell ya though man, kinda tired of hearing about all the inequity in the world. Yeah, sometimes life is unfair, deal with it. Maybe it would serve people better to better themselves and create their own opportunities instead of looking at those who have done so and start crying foul.

I'm not making excuses for the things that are out of whack either. Stop voting for the same idiots that perpetrate the same misgivings then. Stop jumping on the latest and greatest bandwagon of freebies without looking at long term effects. Start thinking about what YOU can do to move up that hill. Nobody is going to do it for you. Stop worrying about what someone else has, and concentrate on getting it yourself. Yeah it's hard, but anything worth having doesn't come easy.

The information highway is a double edged sword. You can use that info for good, or wallow in self pity from everyone telling you how taken advantage of you are. A victim of everything under the sun, no fault of your own.

Ever hear these kinda stories ? Grandparents work their whole life building a business, make tons of coin only to leave it to the kids/grandkids and they piss it all away ? That's because they were handed success without ever having to learn the hard work, value, that went into it. Today we have the same thing, parents who work their tail off, giving their kids everything they ask for. Are you teaching them anything ? Anything that will carry them the rest of their lives ?

The lack of quality stuff in my opinion is in part, a direct lack in quality people. Quality people demand more pay, more opportunity, command it even. Those willing to settle for minimum wage jobs their whole life are outside Wally world demanding 15 bucks an hour. So lets ask the proper question then. Is letting tens of thousands illegal low quality job seekers in the country going to raise wages or lower them ? You don't need to be a Harvard graduate to figure that out do you ?

Certain business's thrive on low quality workers though. Retail, farming, Fast food....think they are happy as pigs with a steady influx of a more low quality/low pay work force ? I'm not even getting into the mass amounts of foreign work visa's being handed out. Why ? Because they will work for less than their American counterparts. What most businesses really want is a cheaper work force, regardless of the dribble they speak. Why do they need a cheaper work force ? Because their profit margins are shrinking with thousands of new regulations each year, higher taxes, and a dollar that can't keep it's value worth a darn. Whats business's number one goal ....profits. Without it the doors close.

So what we have here is a big pile of hypocrisy, driven by money and power. Same game, new dancers with loftier goals. That's why as so many say.....the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

sucks2beme

They don't need to let in illegal workers.
90% of new work is offshore. Office work, manufacturing,
tech support, software programming. My company can't dump US
workers fast enough. They'd rather call meetings to do damage
control with customers rather than make sure work is done correctly
the 1st time. Garbage in, garbage out. This is why college grads can't find
a job after school. There's nowhere to get their foot in the door.
Higher and higher level jobs are going offshore. So at some point
ever having a master's degree will be useless.

Moose68Bash

"Economics" is a "Social Science."

At the heart of economics, therefore, you find individuals making buying decisions that they perceive are right for them. If enough of these individuals did not choose to buy the junk that is now on the market, then junk would not be on the market and CEOs who have made the decisions to develop these products and bring them to market would be out of jobs.

But too commonly individuals want more "stuff" so they buy the lower priced item to have enough money to buy another item that they can't wait to have.

My mother always said to me, "When you point a finger at somebody else, always remember that three fingers are pointing back at you!" It's not CEOs who facilitate bringing products to market that individuals will choose to buy that are to blame, it's consumers who choose to buy cheap junk. A good friend of mine has a simple slogan, "We can't afford to buy cheap." Why because then we buy again, and again, and again!

Businesses exist at the pleasure of society. In a free market society we make individual buying decisions every day, and together they determine -- over time -- which businesses survive, thrive and fail.

I'll take this society over a planned economy which takes an ever-shrinking, dingy gray pie and slices and dices it so that everybody is more or less equally miserable -- except, of course, the dictators at the top, who most certainly carve out their "fair share" of the meager rewards of the lousy businesses they choose to support and subsidize.

Just my humble opinion -- and I just had an expensive dishwasher fail that was probably aged only seven years or so.

gimpod

Boy did this get off topic quick!!

It's all about making money. If a company makes a quality product that lasts 30+ years they'll end up selling you 1 maybe 2 in your life time and go broke doing it, From an business standpoint what's the point of making a car that will last you 30 - 40 years. But if the same company makes the same product a lot cheaper in both quality and cost and sells you one every year or two they end up making more money and a long term consumer base.

This is why we'll never see a cure for HIV, Cancer etc..., It makes more sense to make them liveable if you take the right drugs everyday. Can anybody tell me how much money is being made from polio and chickenpox vaccines these days ? not much if any I'll bet.

BlueFox

mantis wrote: »

It started in our industry, just take a look at TV's and Blu ray player. When in history have you seen such poorly built products?

I'm getting pretty tired of lower quality.

Don't buy low quality. You get what you pay for. At 66 I am impressed at how well TVs, stereos, BR players, cars, etc. work compared to the past. Heck, BR didn't even exist in the not too far past. I will most definitely take today compared to some fictionalized past.

As for the rest of the political aspect of this thread, yes CEOs have gotten out of hand with their salaries for doing basically nothing that anyone else couldn't do for less. They have no problem out-sourcing jobs, but don't even think of out-sourcing their job.

sucks2beme

As far as quality goes, some make a good product for $$$ and they are very
successful at it. Compare a snap-on tool box to a Craftsman or a husky and see what I mean. Sears stuff has dived in a lot of product lines. Their classic red boxes
are not up to the same quality as older ones. So I won't be buying any more of theirs. Sometimes you don't get this choice, it's all cr@p.
I'm old school. I'm sick of cheap Cr@p. Does BIC even make a pen that
works? Couldn't prove it from the last batch I bought. Cross that one
from the list FOREVER.

kevhed72

Edward Deming is spinning in his grave. Quality if free, when compared to the costs of inspection, recalls, poor customer satisfaction and lost customers. Most American firms still don't get it....I thought Ford was catching on some years back but no. I work for a Fortune 500 company and our quality program is nothing more than lip service. Our founder and CEO gets it, but the masses under him are just concerned with CYA. Sad indeed....when the focus is on cost cutting vs. innovation or process improvement. Anyone can be a cost cutter, but it takes hard work and intelligence to be an innovator.

cnh

Oh my!

A little bit for everyone: bad CEOs, Evil tenured Ivy Profs, illegal aliens, inferior goods for profits, and the good old days, etc. How about Beers, Dan? Better or worse? It goes without saying they cost more?

headrott

#1 reason: China (with a few exceptions) and us purchasing the lower quality items.

Solution: Don't buy it. Purchase items with higher quality control (some of which include Chinese made items, but certainly not electronics and a great many other items). Yes, they cost more (higher quality) , and (in general) last much longer too.

Note: This is absolutely not a political statement, but a quality control statement (based upon personal experience and paying attention for over 20 years on this subject).

tonyb

Everything runs back to politics because politics runs everything. Your solution to simply not buy things of poor quality or made in China isn't feasible anymore. One because it costs more money of which the vast majority of the population doesn't have. Two, because finding products not made in china in whole or in part is increasingly hard to find.

You think trade agreements may have something to do with it ? That's politics my friend. You think stagnant wages is all business related ? You think business didn't lobby for more cheap labor, for more consumers to buy their cheap products ? Lots of politics there too. You think all those Bozo's in politics are there to help you ? To serve their constituency ? Does business lobby you the consumer, or politicians ?

Business and politics are 2 peas in a pod, joined at the hip. Which also makes our economy typically political along with the quality of goods and services provided. The whole planet is based around money....and power, they equate to each other. What you are witnessing today is a restructuring of that.....and the side effects that come with it.

Which circles back to the low quality of products, which in my opinion is a side effect of politics. You can keep your heads in the sand and point fingers at the Wal-Marts of the world, but they are just playing the game on a board run by politics to make money. You, are essentially running your life on the same board, trying to make money and move around that game board also run by politics.

There's a cause and effect for everything that happens in life. Except each of those has been manipulated to the point nobody can identify either. That my friend, is politics simplified.

I really didn't want to go there....politics and all because we aren't suppose to talk about this junk. I just get tired of people not being able to identify problems and instead point fingers, at who the media of all people, tell you who you should.

George Grand

Everything runs back to politics at the Polk Forum because of our membership. The girls can't help it.