Quality of things anymore

sucks2beme

You know George, I've got tools that are older than most CP members.
I grew up on a farm and used tools a lot.
My dad bought cheap stuff from tractor supply, and I got tired
of busted knuckles from breaking ratchets, sockets, and wrenches.
I bought most of my wrenches and sockets as a teenager from Sears.
I've really only broken a few 1/4 inch sockets and a 1/4 inch ratchet.
Screwdrivers don't really count, since I was using them as pry bars!
They did replace the ones with broken tips.
I try to buy quality, or used if too pricey.
The biggest issue with buying the good stuff is requests to borrow it!

Upstatemax

mantis wrote: »

Even my almost 1 year old 2014 Nissan Pathfinder, I strongly feel it's not built as well as my last 3 Nissan vehicles.

I'm getting pretty tired of lower quality.

I did not think that Nissan build quality could get any lower than my old 2000 Maxima...

When that car was two years old, it went up on a lift and I walked under it. It looked like a 20 year old car under there. RUST everywhere. Add to that an exhaust system that was rotten in 4 years, 8 mass air flow sensors in thee years, 2 full coil pack replacements, 8 wheel bearings...

Compare that to my Volvo that's now 7 years old, its undercarriage still looks practically brand new. The only things replaced on the car (besides normal wear items) have been one wheel bearing and one strut. Both covered under the warranty.

Upstatemax

DSkip wrote: »

Mantis, I got the same feel from the new q50, the replacement for the g37. It felt like a Cadillac ripoff with twenty-something flair to it. I much prefer my 2011.

I have been doing some car shopping recently and I looked at some of the Infiniti offerings and they looked like a mess of buttons and chrome...

Add that to my past Nissan issues, they are an absolute no go for me.

sucks2beme

I test drove a new car last year.
The salesman was going off a a bluetooth sync marathon.
I stopped him, pulled out my baseline burner phone, and told him I
didn't care. The phone stays in the pocket, and I just drive.
He had no idea how to sell the car after that. He just had to sit in the passenger
seat and shut up.
I guess the gizmos have taken over. Instead of a quality car, they are selling gadgets.

RSTERN

What is worse is knowing the difference between the junk and the stuff thats made good. I find myself telling my kids that want to buy something and I tell them its junk and won't last. So I try to show and explain to them why it won't last. Just don't look at price as your only deciding factor. Sometimes it is better to save up and spend a little more.

Upstatemax

RSTERN wrote: »

What is worse is knowing the difference between the junk and the stuff thats made good. I find myself telling my kids that want to buy something and I tell them its junk and won't last. So I try to show and explain to them why it won't last. Just don't look at price as your only deciding factor. Sometimes it is better to save up and spend a little more.

This is something I've had to get my wife to understand. Her mother is CHEAP and that is a hard thing to re-train...

gimpod

sucks2beme wrote: »

You know George, I've got tools that are older than most CP members.
I grew up on a farm and used tools a lot.
My dad bought cheap stuff from tractor supply, and I got tired
of busted knuckles from breaking ratchets, sockets, and wrenches.
I bought most of my wrenches and sockets as a teenager from Sears.
I've really only broken a few 1/4 inch sockets and a 1/4 inch ratchet.
Screwdrivers don't really count, since I was using them as pry bars!
They did replace the ones with broken tips.
I try to buy quality, or used if too pricey.
The biggest issue with buying the good stuff is requests to borrow it!

Back in 1979 when i got hurt I had at least $15,000 (1979 dollars) worth of Snap-On Tools (I was a real mechanic, If it could be taken apart and put back together i could fix it) because I learned a long time before that it makes the job much easier if you have the right tools for the job that's also why I never ever lent tools. I had a sign made for my tool box that read as follows --

IF YOU VALUE YOUR LIFE
AS MUCH AS I VALUE THESE TOOLS
DON'T ____ WITH THEM!

Buying cheap is something I've never understood (for the most part), I'd much rather pay for something once instead of 20 times trying to make a cheap POS work, It also ends up being cheaper in the end paying for the better quality.

What's the old saying "You Get What You Pay For"

sucks2beme

I worked in industrial maintenance for a few years after getting out of the service.
I not only had standard hand tools, but a bunch of machinist tools.
A lot of the machinist stuff is gone now. I also have soldering supplies,
Telecom tools and test equipment. The loaning part happened when I saw one of my son's friends with a car up on cinder blocks. I remember a friend getting crushed under a car like that, and told him to come see me for the right stuff.
He only stopped coming over for tools a couple of years ago (he's 32 now!).

cfrizz

We all make choices based hopefully on what we can afford, As Tony pointed out the majority are making under 30k a year, you can't get very far on that not in any major city.

So the Walmarts of the world help these under 30k people keep their heads above water.

Some people can't stand to have any money in their pockets so they spend endlessly, then **** about being poor. I have zero sympathy for those since they dug their own graves now they can just lie in them.

If you are not willing to assume personal responsibility for your own self control over your spending habits, then you have no right to point fingers at the govt or anyone else.

You can only be enticed if you WANT to be. I prefer to use my common sense and pay attention to the information in my Quicken, then make my purchasing decisions based on what it says. And that isn't dependent on anyone else or whatever the political landscape is.

To date, I have never made a ton of money, but I don't have any debt, I've never bounced a check or lived paycheck to paycheck, have managed to put money away for my retirement and can occasionally treat myself to a toy when I want. And I did it all by myself simply from utilizing common sense and know when something was just good enough!

Outstanding posts Tony with the exception of all the political crap.

kevhed72

If 50 % of this country are indeed making less than 30k a year, there is a huge inequality issue in this country....that with the figure of the top 1% owning roughly 90% of everything.....doesn't sound like a well functioning democracy to me. That is all...

cfrizz

kevhed72 wrote: »

If 50 % of this country are indeed making less than 30k a year, there is a huge inequality issue in this country....that with the figure of the top 1% owning roughly 90% of everything.....doesn't sound like a well functioning democracy to me. That is all...

Whether it is true or not shouldn't matter. You can't change the country/world, so just worry about your PERSONAL world and what's going on within it. This is the only place where you can effect change. Stop looking at what your neighbor has and start thinking about what you want to have and what you have to accomplish to get it.

Sitting around moaning about the state of the country accomplishes nothing and you can't change any of it.

BlueFox

cfrizz wrote: »

kevhed72 wrote: »

If 50 % of this country are indeed making less than 30k a year, there is a huge inequality issue in this country....that with the figure of the top 1% owning roughly 90% of everything.....doesn't sound like a well functioning democracy to me. That is all...

Whether it is true or not shouldn't matter. You can't change the country/world, so just worry about your PERSONAL world and what's going on within it. This is the only place where you can effect change. Stop looking at what your neighbor has and start thinking about what you want to have and what you have to accomplish to get it.

Sitting around moaning about the state of the country accomplishes nothing and you can't change any of it.

Thank goodness there are people who try to improve things. With your attitude we would still be living in caves.

cfrizz

Uh huh, and just what big contributing change have you made lately? If you had you wouldn't have time to be on this board, and someone on here would be *itching at you because they didn't like the change you made since it wasn't the kind of change they wanted. LOL!

rpf65

Reading a lot about tools here. Guess it was about 14 years ago that my cousin started remodeling/adding to her place. Wanted to do it herself, so I taught her what I could.

Went with her when she started buying power tools. She started asking about different brands. I basically classified them into different catogories. High end/professional grade, good quality, call it a serious hobiest, and low quality, build a bird house or 2.

Point is some low quality things, call it a circular saw, has a market. If you plan on building a bird house with your son/ daughter, the $50 Skil may be for you. Likewise, if you have no idea what you're doing, and decide to try building a deck, may also be a good choice.

Same with audio, this is probably a mistake. I can't, nor do I hope I never hear the nuances that many of you hear. Likewise, I hear things that many other people don't hear, or just hear it differently than I do. A dedicated plug could really make a difference? Unfortunately; yes. Really tired of cutting holes and patching Sheetrock, no thanks to all of you.

Getting away from politics, money envy, and whatever other societal grievances that are currently in vogue, quality isn't always something that is necessary. There is a point where the cost isn't justified for the benefit. Think there was a recent thread concerning HDMI cables where this was mentioned.

Lot more choices out there, and quality can be found. Guess you can complain about products from another country, but truthfully, what country were your speakers made.

headrott

tonyb wrote: »

Everything runs back to politics because politics runs everything. Your solution to simply not buy things of poor quality or made in China isn't feasible anymore. One because it costs more money of which the vast majority of the population doesn't have. Two, because finding products not made in china in whole or in part is increasingly hard to find.

You think trade agreements may have something to do with it ? That's politics my friend. You think stagnant wages is all business related ? You think business didn't lobby for more cheap labor, for more consumers to buy their cheap products ? Lots of politics there too. You think all those Bozo's in politics are there to help you ? To serve their constituency ? Does business lobby you the consumer, or politicians ?

Business and politics are 2 peas in a pod, joined at the hip. Which also makes our economy typically political along with the quality of goods and services provided. The whole planet is based around money....and power, they equate to each other. What you are witnessing today is a restructuring of that.....and the side effects that come with it.

Which circles back to the low quality of products, which in my opinion is a side effect of politics. You can keep your heads in the sand and point fingers at the Wal-Marts of the world, but they are just playing the game on a board run by politics to make money. You, are essentially running your life on the same board, trying to make money and move around that game board also run by politics.

There's a cause and effect for everything that happens in life. Except each of those has been manipulated to the point nobody can identify either. That my friend, is politics simplified.

I really didn't want to go there....politics and all because we aren't suppose to talk about this junk. I just get tired of people not being able to identify problems and instead point fingers, at who the media of all people, tell you who you should.

Maybe I was not clear in my last statement. I did not say that what is going on with manufacturing/trade between China and the USA is not politically and monetarily driven.

What I said is, that my statement about not buying Chinese made items was not politically driven, but simply from a quality control standpoint. The other point I was making is since what is imported and sold in the USA is based upon cost (to manufacture (profit) as well as cost (price) to the consumer)) initially when imported items from China, etc. If, when low quality Chinese made items were imported into the USA consumers made the conscious decision to not buy low quality items from because they are in fact low quality and do not last nearly as long (or perform as well as) higher quality made items, then we would not be in the situation we are in now.

That is, as you said, we almost don't have a choice, but to buy Chinese made items. This is definately not true (yet), but is fast becoming this way.

My point is, don't continue to buy Chinese (low quality) items. If consumers continue to spend money on lower quality items, do you think the number of lower quality items is going to go up or down? What has the past 20+ years demonstrated? The result will be the same, no? Spend more money and buy something of higher quality. It costs more, yes, but it also lasts much longer, and gives you better functionality while you are using it.

Finally, if people don't buy something (whatever it is) it does not continue to be made available. That's basic supply and demand. It's our own fault(s) for buying chaply made items to begin with, leading to the demand for them going up; and resulting in the supply going up. It's pretty basic logic here. We all have a choice regarding where we spend our money, and what we spend it on. So, don't buy it anymore. If the demand goes down, so will the supply.

cfrizz

Let me ask you this HR. If you make under 30k a year factor in all of your bills the ones that HAVE be paid rent, gas/electric, phone, water, taxes, insurance etc. total all of that up then see what's left over for clothes, food, entertainment etc. Where are you going to choose to make the compromise between cheap (supposedly low quality) and expensive.

For me if I get it for a reasonable price and it lasts me 2-3 years, as far as I'm concerned I got my moneys worth out of it. If I can't tell the difference between Shaws diced tomatoes and Del Monte and I save a 2 dollars then there is no point in me spending 3 for the DM. The same applies to clothes, I'm not into name brands, you are simply paying a premium for the name.

It is more important to me to keep a roof over my head with the lights and heat on, then to worry over where my clothes were made or the name on my other incidentals.

Moose68Bash

The dimensions of this conversation are difficult to sort out. In some cases, participants who are more or less shouting at each other in apparent disagreement are really in what I like to call "screaming agreement;" they are just talking so loudly that they can no longer hear each other.

Here are some observations that I derive from this discussion:

1. Economics, politics, and business are all social sciences -- that is they depend on society and the implications of the collective individual decisions of members of society or of differing societies.
2. People have limited incomes and must makes choices about how they spend their incomes.
3. Yes, some very few have such large incomes that they appear "unlimited" to those of us with less income -- e.g., Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Warren Buffett, and myriad hedge fund operators who do whatever they do to make huge incomes.
4. But we mere mortals face choices everyday -- whether to save for some highly desired but costly "stuff" or to spend now for less costly (in the short run) substitutes that gives us immediate gratification.
5. And some are in situations in which they have to choose between eating or buying necessary medicine or paying the rent. My opinion: We should all be willing to help our fellow humans in these conditions, and we do so in an organized way through paying taxes, as well as by other means -- churches, charitable organizations, etc. I also believe we should "teach others to fish, and not just give them fish to eat." It is often easier to give food, than to teach others how to earn it; but the latter approach is better for all when it is feasible.

We all make our choices, and we suffer or enjoy the consequences. I've made a lot of bad choices and I've made a lot of good choices. I've suffered and enjoyed consequences of them. I've tried always to take responsibility for my choices, though I'm far from perfect.

One thing I always advise --especially to my children -- is to take inventory of the things and strengths you have and use them as a platform to strive for what you want. Do not waste your time lamenting what others have that you do not. Do not bemoan the unfairness of the world. Just use your time wisely and always do the best you are able to do at something you consider valuable and that you like to do. Then, you can look back on the time you are given and take satisfaction in what you see.

Just more ramblings and ruminations of a guy with too much gray hair and many scars on his back!

George Grand

Some of the people complaining "it's not like the old days" are talking about the late 90's and early new century time frame when they think old days. They've been consumers for about ten years now. I get a kick out of that.

Moose68Bash

George Grand wrote: »

Some of the people complaining "it's not like the old days" are talking about the late 90's and early new century time frame when they think old days. They've been consumers for about ten years now. I get a kick out of that.

Yes, George, I guess I started "consuming" at least 60 years ago. I started earning money a couple of years later when I started delivering the Indianapolis Star in my southern Indiana hometown at 4:00am or so every morning -- that is, seven days a week, 365 days per year.

Even those do not qualify as the "old days" for those of us who grew up with parents who made it through the Great Depression and WWII.

cnh

Isn't anyone going to say anything about Beers? lol

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, right? What was it that Neil degrasse Tyson said about opinion, science and knowledge? Oh who cares, he's just one of those Ivy League Ph.D.s we despise here! I wonder if he's "tenured", GOD FORBID! You guys are too much.

Oy Vey! Pass me a beer and an aspirin, please!

Moose68Bash

cnh wrote: »

Isn't anyone going to say anything about Beers? lol

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, right? What was it that Neil degrasse Tyson said about opinion, science and knowledge? Oh who cares, he's just one of those Ivy League Ph.D.s we despise here! I wonder if he's "tenured", GOD FORBID! You guys are too much.

Oy Vey! Pass me a beer and an aspirin, please!

OK, Todd Mott recently released hi first batch "Mott the Lesser," as he has dubbed his Russian Imperial Stout. It wascosidered one of the world's best brews when he brewed it for Portsmouth Brewery under the name "Kate the Great." Unfortunately, he brewed only a little -- enough for 400 bottles that were allocated two per lined-up customer and two kegs that were sold by the glass till gone, which took less than nine hours.

Great beer!

headrott

cfrizz wrote: »

Let me ask you this HR. If you make under 30k a year factor in all of your bills the ones that HAVE be paid rent, gas/electric, phone, water, taxes, insurance etc. total all of that up then see what's left over for clothes, food, entertainment etc. Where are you going to choose to make the compromise between cheap (supposedly low quality) and expensive.

For me if I get it for a reasonable price and it lasts me 2-3 years, as far as I'm concerned I got my moneys worth out of it. If I can't tell the difference between Shaws diced tomatoes and Del Monte and I save a 2 dollars then there is no point in me spending 3 for the DM. The same applies to clothes, I'm not into name brands, you are simply paying a premium for the name.

It is more important to me to keep a roof over my head with the lights and heat on, then to worry over where my clothes were made or the name on my other incidentals.

Cathy, (Del Monte and Shaws (which I am not familiar with)) diced tomatoes do not come from China, so I do not understand the inclusion of this comparison.

Regardless, not all tomatoes are grown, harvested, processed, and canned the same: just as not all solder work, capacitors, resistors, and other components that make up electronics are of the same quality. Just as not all rubber used to make car tires, and the manufacturing design, specifications, and physical manufacturing are the same. Tools would be another example (brought up in this thread). Not all steel is of the same quality in components included (iron and carbon purity) leading to physical streangth, and manufacturing (which has an affect on streangth and longevity). As I have stated, I have been paying attention and have much experience with Chinese made products and the low quality of their composition and manufacture. It is not a question, it is an absolute fact that they of lower quality (with some exceptions of course).

As George Grand brought up, it sounds like he is scoffing at my "mere" 20+ years of experience of paying attention to Chinese made products. Is 20+ years too little time to know the quality of Chinese made items? Is that not enough time to realise that Chinese imported made items are of lower quality, and are not as of the same quality (including: research, design, and manufacture (including materials used) as (for example) a German made item? How long does it take to realise this? If it takes longer than 20+ years then one is not paying attention, or does not care, right? Truth and accuracy are exactly that, regardless of the time involved. If something is true, it is true whether one has discovered this accuracy/truth in 5 minutes, or 45 years, correct?

People need to come to accuracy/truth in their own time, and following their own process. Not everyone is aware of it, or has enough experience (or awareness) to become aware of it. "To each, his own".

Going back to your thoughts about something lasting 2-3 years and it being satisfactory for the amount of time leading to your satisfaction. This is a generic time preiod, and very very generic item, leading to not really knowing what the item you are referring to is being used for? Are we talking about your shirt? Are we talking about tires on your car? Are we talking about your Blu-Ray player? Are we talking about the ginger you are including in your next stir fry? The point I am getting at is different items have different life expectancies. 2-3 years is very generic.

Also, how satisfied are you with the experience(s) you have with the item(s) in question? Do the Chinese made tires you put on your Porsche Carrera(hypothetical, yes), make your driving experience (including: longevity, handling ability in cold, wet, snow, high heat, etc., and reliablity, etc.) of the same quality as say, some Italian made Perelli tires (as an example)?

Also, the point I would like to stress very clearly, is what good does a cheaper price do if you have to buy the item in question 5 times to equal the same longevity of a higher quality (design, materials, and manufacture) item? Also, is the usage and pleasure you get from a lower quality (but less costly) item the same as from a higher quality (and yes, more expensive) item?

Lastly, you brought up keeping a roof over your head and therefore buying inexpensive (and lower quality) items to be able to afford to do this. Have you considered that materials made in wood, metals, etc. that make you your roof that come from China are of lower quality and therefore deteriorate faster than materials that are made of and manufactured in a fashion to last longer. So, I would ask, when you are purchasing less expensive (and lower quality) materials to literally manufacture and maintain your roof, you may be able to afford to keep that roof over your head, and yet you will potentially be having that roof, leak, and collapse on your head since the materials used are of lower quality (since they are cheaply manufactures). Will your roof last longer than 2-3 years? *******I am using an extreme case to make a point, YES*******

mantis

DSkip wrote: »

Mantis, I got the same feel from the new q50, the replacement for the g37. It felt like a Cadillac ripoff with twenty-something flair to it. I much prefer my 2011.

Upstatemax wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

Even my almost 1 year old 2014 Nissan Pathfinder, I strongly feel it's not built as well as my last 3 Nissan vehicles.

I'm getting pretty tired of lower quality.

I did not think that Nissan build quality could get any lower than my old 2000 Maxima...

When that car was two years old, it went up on a lift and I walked under it. It looked like a 20 year old car under there. RUST everywhere. Add to that an exhaust system that was rotten in 4 years, 8 mass air flow sensors in thee years, 2 full coil pack replacements, 8 wheel bearings...

Compare that to my Volvo that's now 7 years old, its undercarriage still looks practically brand new. The only things replaced on the car (besides normal wear items) have been one wheel bearing and one strut. Both covered under the warranty.

I have not had any issues with quality with Nissan up until now. I owned a 1990 Maxima , 2001 Xterra, 2005 Pathfinder, 2008 Pathfinder , 2011 Murano and now a 2014 Pathfinder.
The 2014 Pathfinder is cheaply built. Funny 2 it's a 41k vehicle. The Doors feel thin, the hood and al panels for that matter seem like if you let the wind blow to hard it would dent.
The quality of craftsmanship on it suffers as well. I had moldings come loose , the Rug was cut wrong and had to be replaced , paint coming off around the window trim , poor quality paint job , I could go on and on and it only has 8k miles on it now.

None of my other Nissans had any issues. Its why I have been driving them for so long. Great vehicles but if this is the way Nissan is going to go , the Pathfinder will be my last.

tonyb

Told myself I wasn't going to re-visit this thread as I see it going nowhere quick. Have to comment though, love the tool analogies. That however comes with experience as many other things in life does.

Cathy,
I know where your coming from and am with ya. Because a good portion of society makes under 30k a year, they can't afford housing built with premium materials made in the USA. So to get them in a house....PAYING TAXES.....which makes the economy turn and works for government too, builders need options like cheaper supplies from China. Politics ? You betcha.

I talked before about asking the right questions. If over 50% of the society is making under 30k a year, where have all the good jobs gone ? Why does education cost what it does because that's obviously a barrier to higher learning. You know the old saying....Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him how to fish he eats for a lifetime. Well, we aren't teaching people how to fish. We instead take those 30k wage earners and subsidize them.....and then promote it as a crowning achievement.

Instead of addressing the real issues we face, instead we "subsidize" everything. Which basically promises to give a man someone elses fish. Great if getting votes is your main concern, not so much if the betterment of society is on the front burner.

So we subsidize the poor.....subsidize the rich, and everyone in-between gets the squeeze. I see no reason to subsidize businesses such as G.E., Google, Apple....seriously ? I'm not against subsidizing business, if it's a start up or an industry hurting some by tough times, but those subsidies have to go away at some point....even for the 30k wagers. Unfortunately too many have become accustomed to receiving another man's fish. Try taking away subsidies from a business and hear the cries. Try taking it away from the poor....yeah right. Our dependency on taking someone elses fish has killed any desire to learn how to fish. Business dependency on subsidies, has killed any attempts at reigning in excess spending.....such as excess CEO pay. Which btw, a subsidy for business can be in the form of favorable tax laws, or even legislation that favors one segment of the economy.

Quality of products is a convoluted problem with many variables in play, but it all starts somewhere right ? I think in some respects, we fail to recognize that we all are still "subjects" to the Kings and Queens only with a prettier face to it all. To acknowledge that would mean that the great American experiment has failed.....or we failed it.

Moose68Bash

tonyb wrote: »

Quality of products is a convoluted problem with many variables in play, but it all starts somewhere right ? I think in some respects, we fail to recognize that we all are still "subjects" to the Kings and Queens only with a prettier face to it all. To acknowledge that would mean that the great American experiment has failed.....or we failed it.

Yes, tonyb, it all starts somewhere, and that somewhere is with the individual buyer who decides to buy product A of lesser quality for less money rather than product B of higher quality for more money.

As individual decisions of that sort accumulate over time, they force the higher quality producer out of the market. Wal-Mart has been the great facilitator of this process.

We are subject only to our own desire for instant gratification or for more and more stuff or for cheaper products -- whether they are of lesser quality or not. Many folks just don't want to take the time to understand what they're paying for and what they are getting.

I still say, as my friend told me, "You can't afford to buy cheap." But the vast majority of US citizens have chosen to buy as cheaply as they can. Hence, the bulk or our manufacturing jobs have gone to China, and buyers continue to point fingers at manufacturers of lower quality products -- all the while failing to notice that while they are pointing their fingers at somebody else ("Kings and Queens") they have three fingers pointing back at themselves.

It's a XXXX shame.