Do power cords make a difference?

Jhayman

Headrott You might be better of posting about your new power cable in a few week time as from what I have read from other links people posted most power cables need a 1000hrs to break them in, lol

Oh and to answer your question my gear is more than capable of showing of suttle differences..

I'll bet $1000 bucks not one of you guys could pass my blind test.
I guess you guys don't believe in the snake oil either?
I don't care what Zitful posts wether HIS fact or not, there are certainly more snake oil theorys than fact..

BlueFox

Generally speaking, when dealing with "The Stupid People", ignoring them is the best response. However, some are extra amusing, so while it is tempting to pretend interest, the end result is like shooting fish in a barrel. No contest. Just let them flounder and make fools of themselves.

Toolfan66

Jhayman wrote: »

Oh and to answer your question my gear is more than capable of showing of suttle differences..

:rolleyes:

Jhayman

Exactly how I feel now, getting tired..
Once brainwashed by the Shunyata Cable Company you never get out..lol

BlueFox wrote: »

Generally speaking, when dealing with "The Stupid People", ignoring them is the best response. However, some are extra amusing, so while it is tempting to pretend interest, the end result is like shooting fish in a barrel. No contest. Just let them flounder and make fools of themselves.

kevhed72

Fascinating...

sodablue

Is there a difference in sound quality depending upon whether your electricity comes from a coal fired plant or nuclear?

halo71

sodablue wrote: »

Is there a difference in sound quality depending upon whether your electricity comes from a coal fired plant or nuclear?

lol...

Neither! Solar is the purest you will hear!

Jhayman

Make sure you put the Approved Sunscreen on the cable or you VOID the warranty, lol

halo71 wrote: »

lol...

Neither! Solar is the purest you will hear!

headrott

headrott wrote: »

I would say the proof is in the ear and the gear. Your system must have a minimum level of resolution to hear differences in cables (power and otherwise). Unless you have trained yourself to hear these differences (your ear) and you have high enough resolution audio coming from your gear you cannot hear the or become aware of the differences and you are talking out of your rear.

Again, please read my question from my quote above and get back to us about it.

headrott wrote: »

Not trying to sound rude, but it sounds like you are doing as well as you can hear and conceptualize. Can you conceed that there may be differences that you are not hearing (due to your gear, possibly?) and that you are not aware of all possibilities how and why a power cable can make an audible difference?

Jhayman wrote: »

Headrott You might be better of posting about your new power cable in a few week time as from what I have read from other links people posted most power cables need a 1000hrs to break them in, lol

Oh and to answer your question my gear is more than capable of showing of suttle differences..

I'll bet $1000 bucks not one of you guys could pass my blind test.
I guess you guys don't believe in the snake oil either?
I don't care what Zitful posts wether HIS fact or not, there are certainly more snake oil theorys than fact..

Regarding the power cord, I agree with the fact that break in time will potentially reveal differences in the sound. So I will report back again after the break in period. Thank you for pointing that out (even if it was sarcastically).

Regarding your response to my questions; if you say that your gears is "more than capable of showing subtle differences..." (which I am not convinced I agree with, but...(and believe that I am not bashing your gear, but am not sure that an AVR, blur ray player, and an Emotiva 5 channel amp are very revealing (IMO)) then perhaps it's the second part of my question that you yet again disregarded that is why you do not hear differences. Is it because you are not aware of what you are listening for? A little training needs to be involved to understand the differences in audio gear (including power cords). Some differences are more subtle and some less so, but the required understanding of what you are listening for is required for both less and more subtle audio. Can you answer this for us as well? That is, how much have you trained yourself to listen for differences in audio equipment?

Regarding blind testing, do a search and you will find why blind testing is not suitable for stereophonic audio and was never intended to be used for this application. I don't think we need to get into why it is not suitable again.

I look forward to your response to the above question (the second part of my question that you disregarded). Thank you.

Jhayman

Headrott forgive me as I do not wish to discuss this thread any longer, in detail..
To much name calling, insulting and gear bashing going on..
I thought this was not allowed as per the forum rules..anyway...
Yes you were correct about my break in comment..
I just have to ask, if your not sure about my gear being able to detect small changes, then can you tell me in detail which gear exactly will reveal small changes.
What monetary value are you at for this change to happen?
Maybe I should have posted all my IC, SW brands I use..
I can assure you I am not using the cables that came with the equipment..
Then I will answer your disregarded question..

treitz3

Jhayman, apparently you are fixated with this thread and it seems as if you are hell bent to prove to us that PC's make no difference whatsoever even after being shown scientific proof otherwise.

Tell, you what. I refuse to talk to a person who is not open to any other way but their own but I will offer you this before I move on. It's a test you and your friends can do and it will only take 10 minutes of your time. Hopefully, you will actually try it.

What you want to do is find an accurately recorded, bass heavy album. A good one to use would be something like Donald Fagan's "Morph the Cat" or perhaps Tool's "Undertow". Something along the likes of those and not some crappy, computer generated bass or bass that is so compressed that you can't even realize what instrument is making the noise to begin with. Now that you have found the reference recording, use a physical disc and a CDP for this test and do not rely on any music server. Now, take your mains and disable them completely to where they are making absolutely no noise whatsoever.

With the sub and only the sub running, play the CD until you are certain that you have achieved a loud enough volume to see the woofer moving and feel the bass output strong enough to appreciate but not so loud that you fear for blowing the sub itself. Sit back and listen to the sub and only the sub at that level for about a minute or two with the stock power cord. Get used to the impact, how it loads the room and the overall sound at your listening position.

Now, without touching anything other than stop on the CDP.....power everything down and swap out just the PC with a worthy* upgraded one I][B]*[/B]not one from Home Depot, in other words[/I. Turn everything back on making sure that nothing else is moved or altered in any way whatsoever and proceed to play the same selection. Go back to your listening position and note any differences that you observe. If at that point, you are man enough to come back and tell the truth, please do come back and post your truthful observations, noting which PC you used to compare.

You can thank me later. Until then, I am blind to this thread because this useless drivel is for the complete novice when it comes to this hobby and with that said, is not worthy of my time. Just know that I am completely enjoying what at once I thought impossible as well and that my audio journey is no longer restricted because of not trying. I hope you learn something with this test. With that said, I'm out.

Tom

BlueFox

treitz3 wrote: »

Just know that I am completely enjoying what at once I thought impossible as well and that my audio journey is no longer restricted because of not trying.

A few years ago I was a power cable skeptic. Due to my ignorance I just could not understand why 120v AC from one cable would sound different than 120v AC from another cable. Yet, I kept reading threads stating that power cords do make a difference. Finally, I broke down and bought some inexpensive Pangea cables, and have not looked back. As soon as I added the Pangeas I could hear an obvious improvement. As I learned more over time I moved up to Shunyata and have been very, very happy with the end result. At this time I have a very solid power foundation, and am going to soon start upgrading my gear to take advantage of this most excellent power.

I also am glad that when I was a skeptic I did not make a fool of myself by posting stupidity and thinking it was fact.

Jhayman

Since you put it that wat treitz3 I would be Happy do try that..
Oh where should I use the power cable, on my Yamaha, Belkin power conditioner, or my Amp which uses a pretty beefy cable already?
I will post results when I actually get a chance to do this..
Thank You for not being so abrasive.. :-)

treitz3 wrote: »

Jhayman, apparently you are fixated with this thread and it seems as if you are hell bent to prove to us that PC's make no difference whatsoever even after being shown scientific proof otherwise.

Tell, you what. I refuse to talk to a person who is not open to any other way but their own but I will offer you this before I move on. It's a test you and your friends can do and it will only take 10 minutes of your time. Hopefully, you will actually try it.

What you want to do is find an accurately recorded, bass heavy album. A good one to use would be something like Donald Fagan's "Morph the Cat" or perhaps Tool's "Undertow". Something along the likes of those and not some crappy, computer generated bass or bass that is so compressed that you can't even realize what instrument is making the noise to begin with. Now that you have found the reference recording, use a physical disc and a CDP for this test and do not rely on any music server. Now, take your mains and disable them completely to where they are making absolutely no noise whatsoever.

With the sub and only the sub running, play the CD until you are certain that you have achieved a loud enough volume to see the woofer moving and feel the bass output strong enough to appreciate but not so loud that you fear for blowing the sub itself. Sit back and listen to the sub and only the sub at that level for about a minute or two with the stock power cord. Get used to the impact, how it loads the room and the overall sound at your listening position.

Now, without touching anything other than stop on the CDP.....power everything down and swap out just the PC with a worthy* upgraded one I][B]*[/B]not one from Home Depot, in other words[/I. Turn everything back on making sure that nothing else is moved or altered in any way whatsoever and proceed to play the same selection. Go back to your listening position and note any differences that you observe. If at that point, you are man enough to come back and tell the truth, please do come back and post your truthful observations, noting which PC you used to compare.

You can thank me later. Until then, I am blind to this thread because this useless drivel is for the complete novice when it comes to this hobby and with that said, is not worthy of my time. Just know that I am completely enjoying what at once I thought impossible as well and that my audio journey is no longer restricted because of not trying. I hope you learn something with this test. With that said, I'm out.

Tom

Jhayman

You because of your continuing need to insult, I refuse to talk to..

BlueFox wrote: »

A few years ago I was a power cable skeptic. Due to my ignorance I just could not understand why 120v AC from one cable would sound different than 120v AC from another cable. Yet, I kept reading threads stating that power cords do make a difference. Finally, I broke down and bought some inexpensive Pangea cables, and have not looked back. As soon as I added the Pangeas I could hear an obvious improvement. As I learned more over time I moved up to Shunyata and have been very, very happy with the end result. At this time I have a very solid power foundation, and am going to soon start upgrading my gear to take advantage of this most excellent power.

I also am glad that when I was a skeptic I did not make a fool of myself by posting stupidity and thinking it was fact.

treitz3

Jhayman wrote: »

Oh where should I use the power cable?

On the sub and only the sub.

ZLTFUL

I want to go back and point out something else you are wrong on Jhyman.
Virtually all Pioneer Elite AVRs come with removable power cables. Except the lowly VSX-42 which is meant as a next step above entry level anyway.
Yamaha's Aventage line, except the lowest 2 AVRs in the line come with removable power cables.
Denon's CI line of AVRs...same thing. Lowest model in that line doesn't but the rest do.
Harman Kardon AVRs...every single one currently on the market does.
Marantz even on their entry level AVRs. All the way up to their top dogs.

And we all know companies like Rotel, Krell, Audio Research, McIntosh, etc all come with detachable power cords.

Hell...even lowly little Sherwood offers their entire lineup of AVRs with detachable power cables.

So I guess there is another one of your claims I have disproved with more factual evidence.
You aren't very good at this whole debate and burden of proof thing are you?

PolkieMan

Can you suggest a power cord for me to buy that is reasonable?
I will buy it mainly because you feel that strongly about it then it must be true.

treitz3 wrote: »

On the sub and only the sub.

headrott

Jhayman wrote: »

Headrott forgive me as I do not wish to discuss this thread any longer, in detail..
To much name calling, insulting and gear bashing going on..
I thought this was not allowed as per the forum rules..anyway...
Yes you were correct about my break in comment..
I just have to ask, if your not sure about my gear being able to detect small changes, then can you tell me in detail which gear exactly will reveal small changes.
What monetary value are you at for this change to happen?
Maybe I should have posted all my IC, SW brands I use..
I can assure you I am not using the cables that came with the equipment..
Then I will answer your disregarded question..

Hello Jhayman. firstly, I have to ask; which is it? Do you not want to discuss this thread in detail? Or should I lay out what gear I believe is revealing?

If you would actually still like to discuss the topic (and I will assume you do because you asked me a question that you would like answered and you responded a few more times in this thread), then I will answer I will answer you question so you can answer the disregarded second part of mine. I don't necessarily believe there is a certain monitary amount you can attach to a piece of revealing gear. Quality of parts used plays a cruicial role in how revealing a piece of gear is, yes. And higher quality parts means a higher price tag, yes. But also, the design of the gear, the types of tubes (if it's a peice of tubed gear), how well the peice of gear is isolated from extraneous vibrations, and many other factors come into play. I don't believe high dollar equals high quality sound, necessarily. However, I can say that without a doubt (as a few others have reported on here) the gear I have now is much more revealing than the gear I had 15 years ago. It's not even close. If you would like, I'll list my gear below and you will know what I find to be (not the minimum level to be revealing, but definately easily revealing enough to hear differences in equipment (including power cords). To answer your question more directly, I cannot answer (for you) what gear it takes to hear differences in quipment, because you have not responded to my previously unanswered question which plays a cruicial role in hearing differences. I can say that an AVR and an Emotiva 5 channel amp used for 2 channel music would not be my first choice for the most revealing or pleasent sounding 2 channel gear. (Again, I am NOT bashing your gear, just giving my opinion (which you asked for)). I started out using an AVR for my pre-amp (about 15 years ago) and when I upgraded to a true pre-amp it made a big difference. I then upgraded my amp, CD player, etc. etc. etc. until I eventually ended up where I'm at now (which includes training myself to listen for differences in gear). To give you an idea of where I am now I will list my gear below. And this is definately gear I would consider revealing enough to hear differences in audio. My gear includes:

Amp; BAT VK-200
Pre-amp: BAT VK-3i
DAC: My own self built DAC based upon the Twisted Pear Buffallo II and Tube-I Zator tube output analog boards w/ RCA 5751 TM BP and Tesla E88CC tubes found here.
Transport: Theta Jade
SACD Transport (DSD tapped from Denon player directly to DAC): DVD-1920
Reel 2 Reel deck: Teac X-2000R
Speakers: Polk Audio SDA SRS 2.3TL's modified with Gimpod's boards and Clarity Cap ESA caps and Duelund cast resistors.
Cables: Balanced MIT Shotgun S3, MIT Shotgun S3 speaker cables, Cerious Balanced digital cable, Acoustic Revive LAN 1.0 LAN cable from DVD-1920 to DAC, DCCA power cables, VH Audio flavor 4 power cable
Equi-Tech Balanced power 1RQ
Monster Cable AVR-2000 Voltage Regulator (just modified by me adding Furutech power cord and Furutech Fi-28M (Rhodium plated) male plug
PS AUdio Solist CI, convsrted to a Soloist SE (by adding a PS Audio Power Port Premeir)
Room Treatments

I hope this gives you a better idea of what I consider revealing. Of couse, if you don't know what you are listening for the most revealing equipment in the world won't do you much good. That's why I asked you about the second part of the question. That is also why Tom asked what you to perform his subwoofer power cord test. So, I have answered you question. How about you answer mine now. That is, assuming you would still like to discuss this topic. Thank you again Jhayman.

tonyb

Well, this thread is turning south as expected. I'll throw my 2 cents into the ring anyway.

First off, an AVR is a compromised piece of gear to start with. Doesn't mean good sound cannot be had however using one. Some top of the line AVR's are certainly approaching the SQ of seperates, we all agree on that....I think.:biggrin:

Second, don't poo-poo someone elses gear, nobody likes their baby called ugly. By the same token, don't poo-poo someone else because they may have more experience with a variety of gear than you.

...and third, does this all mean jack anyway ? If you enjoy the sound of your Hello Kitty cdp, or what have you, who cares ? As long as you like what you hear enjoy the tunes. That is what this is all about isn't it ?

11tsteve

i can hear cable differences with my $360 Parasound 1200II, $325 Acurus RL11, and either modded RTA 11Ts or my newly recapped/refinished/refoamed Infinity RSbs, and the Schiit Bifrost. Just saying you don't even need to spend what that BAT gear costs. and that is really nice... i am more than a little jealous.


and i would agree familiarity and a trained ear go a long way. what i loved early in the curve was when my ear was newer, that things would "startle" me... changes in quality that were so obvious i had to double check because it didn't seem possible.
now what i enjoy is when something in the music itself happens... and it happens when listening is casual as much as critical. a voice the other day in a NIN song i was listening to in the background popped out so far to my left i thought someone had come into my room and said something....

tonyb wrote: »

If you enjoy the sound of your Hello Kitty cdp, or what have you, who cares ? As long as you like what you hear enjoy the tunes. That is what this is all about isn't it ?

truth.

Dawgfish

PolkieMan wrote: »

Can you suggest a power cord for me to buy that is reasonable?
I will buy it mainly because you feel that strongly about it then it must be true.

Pangea AC-14 or AC-14SE for your sources and preamp and Pangea AC-9 or AC-9SE for amps, recievers, subs, and other high current applications. You can find them here www.audioadvisor.com Also Pepster here on the board makes some great PCs. Signal cable is another good source.

I used to be a sceptic on upgraded PCs myself until one day I decided to bite the bullet and try them. What I tried was nothing fancy, Pangea AC-14s that I bought for around $40 each for 1 meter and I put them on all of my sources and my pre. The difference was quite noticable, actually it was profound. I've been a believer of aftermarket PCs ever since and you don't have to spend major bucks on them to hear an improvement.

Jhayman

This is my friends PIONEER ELITE SC-07 and as you can see for youreslf..
This was from their FLAGSHIP Series..

Anyway I have decided not to play your game..
After seriously considering it something popped in my head..
I don't listen to music to disect it, I listen to it because I want to..
Then I thought replacing my PC WHY because I might hear something different in the music?
I'm Happy listening to my gear, and If John has 20K worth and Joe has 30K worth and Fred has 50K worth and it's all Different gear and you are all after the same end results...
Then who is right, Who's gear is the better than who's, the way you guys play that answer would be who's stack of gear has a greater monetary value..lol
If John's gear changes the sound to a sound he likes, does that make Fred's more expensive gear Garbage?
With so many products claiming I will make you better, Who is better?
I mean if you are all after the same thing, Sonic Bliss Nirvana.
Do you all have Magic ears..
So many cable manufacturers from A-Z claiming sonic bliss.
I mean how many times can the same source change from cables A-Z all claiming they are the one's..
Again Who's Right and Wrong..If John spends $200-1000 on a PC and Fred spends $2000-5000 on a PC, Fred will Laugh at John saying you can't hear what I hear, lol
I just read an article at Positive Feedback, looking at a BAT VK-200 review, according to them very nice, the guy even owns one and knows the owners..
Then I read a couple about Emotiva, the same this very nice they can't believe they get that kind of sound for so little money..Amazed.
Forgot to add I guess the Dan's of this world that have 100K invested in their gear READ this and say YOU ALL DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, lol
Where does it end, Never I guess or until the $$ runs out.
Oh and the music can only sound as good as the source recording PERIOD..
So with all these A-Z cables adding crap into the sound it's all probably wrong anyway..lol
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue58/emotiva.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue58/emotiva_xpa.htm

Anyway I'm done on this topic, Laugh if you want but in the END what else do we have to go on but OUR Ears, Reviews and our Wallet..
Goodbye

BlueFox

You have to admit. He is hilarious.

markmarc

When I bought my Shunyata Venom 3's in order to "prove" to myself that the cables were making a difference I took very copious notes regarding the black level, color saturation, and sharpness of my plasma TV including the settings. I then swapped to the Venom 3, went back and reset the levels to where they were with the stock cord from my amp. The blacks were blacker, the color levels were more saturated to the point I had to turn every level down. A slightly blurry license plate and store sign were now sharp and easy to read.

Jhayman

Well Markmarc..
If TT makes such a big difference and only for $125 why would the makers of the highest end plasmas not include one..
I mean if its going to make their $5000 Pioneer Elite Kuro shine, what's a measly $125 for a better power cable?
It really does not make sense for makers of Highend Electronics that cost $$$ not to include a $100-300 power cable.
They obviously think the power cable in the box is more than sufficient to power their $$$ product..
If they didn't they would include a power cable that would and not one just to get by..
Those makers of $$$$$ amps do they really expect you to go out and spend MORE $$ on a power cable now because the one they included in the box was crappy?
Would it not be beneficial o the makers to include a proper power cable to show of their $$$$ product?

markmarc wrote: »

When I bought my Shunyata Venom 3's in order to "prove" to myself that the cables were making a difference I took very copious notes regarding the black level, color saturation, and sharpness of my plasma TV including the settings. I then swapped to the Venom 3, went back and reset the levels to where they were with the stock cord from my amp. The blacks were blacker, the color levels were more saturated to the point I had to turn every level down. A slightly blurry license plate and store sign were now sharp and easy to read.

ZLTFUL

Jhayman wrote: »

I'm done with this thread...followed by a lot of repeated drivel where I once again claim to be right and be better than everyone else even though I continually prove how wrong I really am.

You sure are "finished" and "done" with this thread a lot.
One really begins to think that you have an incessant need to get the last word even when shown repeatedly how wrong you are.
Myself and several other posters have made our arguments with *facts* to back them up while you still spout opinions as the basis for your argument.

But I will agree with you on one very telling point. If it sounds good to *YOU*, then who gives a **** what anyone else thinks?
I won't dispute that. At all. But to say that clean sources of power in a device designed to recreate music doesn't make a difference is naive at best and outright ignorant at worst.

Jhayman

Please they don't have to tell the consumer they are paying $50-300 for a PC..
I would have no problem paying that if it make a DIFFERENCE, lol
So would Pioneer I'm sure..
If Pioneer wanted to include cables like that I'm their buying power would reduce the cost dramatically..

DSkip wrote: »

There's no point including an expensive power cable with them because for those who give a damn, chances are they already have an upgraded PC or have a route they would rather go. Its a waste of money for the consumer. Your viewpoint is skewed on this. Would you be happy paying $300 because they included a "mandatory PC"?

Either way, congratulations on saving yourself some dough. I wish I would've had to the balls to choose ignorance on this, but then again, I absolutely love what they did for my system. I don't judge you for your viewpoint or your stubbornness to avoid the test. Don't judge us for how we listen or what we hear. You can't comprehend what you don't understand, or in this case, refuse to hear.

markmarc

Jhayman wrote: »

Well Markmarc..
If TT makes such a big difference and only for $125 why would the makers of the highest end plasmas not include one..
I mean if its going to make their $5000 Pioneer Elite Kuro shine, what's a measly $125 for a better power cable?
It really does not make sense for makers of Highend Electronics that cost $$$ not to include a $100-300 power cable.
They obviously think the power cable in the box is more than sufficient to power their $$$ product..
If they didn't they would include a power cable that would and not one just to get by..
Those makers of $$$$$ amps do they really expect you to go out and spend MORE $$ on a power cable now because the one they included in the box was crappy?
Would it not be beneficial o the makers to include a proper power cable to show of their $$$$ product?

Fair question, and having been around this hobby and chatted with manufacturers (reps for larger ones) to answer your question it is simple for audio and TV's, PRICE POINT. Manufacturers are smart enough to have decided that a generic cable gets the buyer to the starting line. But by using a socket instead of hard wiring they are allowing owners the freedom to choose.

I hope you will follow thru with Treitz subwoofer test, as well as try out my video test.

Jhayman

I'm not wrong, we all know it's easier to prove a point with evidence and fact..
Just because the Osilloscope shows a change in the cable does not mean it makes a BETTER difference..
My argument is very hard to show with evidence of fact, because ONLY the people can say it makes no difference and they have spoken in many many Forums..
Have I reached 100 posts yet to allow me to buy something or to even see the infamous for sale items..

ZLTFUL wrote: »

You sure are "finished" and "done" with this thread a lot.
One really begins to think that you have an incessant need to get the last word even when shown repeatedly how wrong you are.
Myself and several other posters have made our arguments with *facts* to back them up while you still spout opinions as the basis for your argument.

But I will agree with you on one very telling point. If it sounds good to *YOU*, then who gives a **** what anyone else thinks?
I won't dispute that. At all. But to say that clean sources of power in a device designed to recreate music doesn't make a difference is naive at best and outright ignorant at worst.

Jhayman

Of course it's all about the Price Point, I'm talking about the ELITE Gear not mainstream items that every Tom Dick and Harry will buy..
The ELITE are ELITE for a reason right?
SO in theory it would be in their best interest to include a $50-300 cable if it makes a difference..

markmarc wrote: »

Fair question, and having been around this hobby and chatted with manufacturers (reps for larger ones) to answer your question it is simple for audio and TV's, PRICE POINT. Manufacturers are smart enough to have decided that a generic cable gets the buyer to the starting line. But by using a socket instead of hard wiring they are allowing owners the freedom to choose.

I hope you will follow thru with Treitz subwoofer test, as well as try out my video test.