Do power cords make a difference?

headrott

I'll pose the same question to the new scoffers as I did to outlander (who is pretty open-minded about the subject it turns out):

headrott wrote: »

Not trying to sound rude, but it sounds like you are doing as well as you can hear and conceptualize. Can you conceed that there may be differences that you are not hearing (due to your gear, possibly?) and that you are not aware of all possibilities how and why a power cable can make an audible difference?

Jhayman wrote: »

If that were true that power cables make a difference then would it not be in the Audio worlds best interest, makers of Pioneer Elite, for instance to make a detachable power cord?
I mean if it's going to make their AMP SHINE and make customers go OHH AHH listen to that difference that power cable makes..
Then why does PIONEER ELITE not give you the detachable cable option..
Or better yet why don't companies give it to you, and if you say cost well come on over, do you really think a power cable is capable of costing more than a highend AMP..lol
Please guys just look at all the evidence about HOW highend wire got started in the first place..
Back in the day they started to dress up the wire to make it look nice because people started asking why does the speaker wire look like crap, so they dressed it up and then realized hey we can make a fortune selling this crap..
BUT hey if your RICH buy me one too because I would love to selll it and buy a car..

sodablue wrote: »

You really won't get the full warmth out of your new set of power cables until you've replaced the wiring in your home from the room to the power junction box. I used a pure silver 12 gauge set for mine with a ceramic insulation. The whole thing had to be fabricated on site.

I'm not sure what to do about the transmission line from the power station to our home yet. I'm concerned about interference from birds sitting on the power line.

20hz wrote: »

mostely on your wallet
But if you do the job 100% like sodablue said I am sure there is a audible differance .
I talked to a friend that spent a bunch on both he found a biggersound improvement replacing his rca cables w/high end than the sound differabce when he replaced his power cables

PolkieMan wrote: »

Now I would think (and I know I shouldn't:razz:) that a line conditioner used for extremely expensive medical equipment would be on the order here if you really want to get down with this.
Something like this?
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/272519.html?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&gclid=CMWdu6Wm9bQCFSaRPAodRi8A-g

http://www.controlledpwr.com/Commercial_Power_Purifier_Conditioner.html

BlueFox

Where do these people come from? Is there a "Stupid University", and a new class has flunked out (graduated)? I absolutely love how these clowns state something and have zero experience to support their stated 'facts'. :rolleyes:

Other than mocking and ridiculing them, there really is not much else you can do with "The Stupid People".

tonyb

Hey now, not nice to label people like that........

....but sure is darn funny anyway. WAAAAAAA !!

Mikey081057

only when they are not plugged in

Jhayman

I would'nt call people that buy expensive power cables " Stupid" that's not nice and very condesending and RUDE..
If they think it makes a difference then I guess the proof is in the EAR..
Because on paper it does not, especially in such a short run of wire like a power cable..
where's your so called proof that you say the others don't have?

BlueFox wrote: »

Where do these people come from? Is there a "Stupid University", and a new class has flunked out (graduated)? I absolutely love how these clowns state something and have zero experience to support their stated 'facts'. :rolleyes:

Other than mocking and ridiculing them, there really is not much else you can do with "The Stupid People".

polrbehr

I just got back from Best Buy about an hour ago.

I lucked out and got a sweet deal on an open-box Denon 3312ci. Only thing was that the salesman couldn't find the (detachable)
power cord. So I offered him $30 less than the asking price, he got the OK, and out I went with my new receiver.

I couldn't let it go, though; the devil on the left shoulder insisted I go back in and tell the salesman that for the record, the stock PC was going to be unwrapped/unused anyway, that I had a nice Signal Cable 5 footer all set to go! He just looked at me with one of those "huh?" faces, so I took a few minutes to enlighten him. Turned out he was a pretty cool kid, didn't even think about things like power cords having a positive impact. Which, by the way, they do.

I can't find the link, but DarqueKnight had a pretty good explanation of why power cords make a difference; if people are going to believe the negatives they read about, maybe getting their eyes on a positive might work too.

Erik Tracy

Jhayman wrote: »

I would'nt call people that buy expensive power cables " Stupid" that's not nice and very condesending and RUDE..
If they think it makes a difference then I guess the proof is in the EAR..
Because on paper it does not, especially in such a short run of wire like a power cable..
where's your so called proof that you say the others don't have?

Where's your proof they don't?

Until there is "proof" either way, I give more weight to those who try things for themselves and let their own ears decide - anything is just internet wanking.

headrott

headrott wrote: »

Not trying to sound rude, but it sounds like you are doing as well as you can hear and conceptualize. Can you conceed that there may be differences that you are not hearing (due to your gear, possibly?) and that you are not aware of all possibilities how and why a power cable can make an audible difference?

Jhayman wrote: »

I would'nt call people that buy expensive power cables " Stupid" that's not nice and very condesending and RUDE..
If they think it makes a difference then I guess the proof is in the EAR..
Because on paper it does not, especially in such a short run of wire like a power cable..
where's your so called proof that you say the others don't have?

I would say the proof is in the ear and the gear. Your system must have a minimum level of resolution to hear differences in cables (power and otherwise). Unless you have trained yourself to hear these differences (your ear) and you have high enough resolution audio coming from your gear you cannot hear the or become aware of the differences and you are talking out of your rear.

Again, please read my question from my quote above and get back to us about it.

11tsteve

i have never understood why this always turns into an argument. i have a buddy who runs sound for local clubs, and has a lot of pro gear. when he found out i spent money on Morrow cables, he called me the classic "audiofool". though i told him i immediately heard a difference, i was accused of being faulty in not doing a double blind. his argument was also empirical in that data showed there was no better transfer of signal given whatever conductor used blah blah blah... and that if cables made a difference wouldn't clubs and sound companies be using them? well, no, conductor quality in a setting with such high ambient background noise, large space... makes no sense... and round we went.

really, i just wanted to enjoy my new cables. some hear it, some don't. why does it have to come to body blows?

BlueFox

11tsteve wrote: »

i have never understood why this always turns into an argument. i have a buddy who runs sound for local clubs, and has a lot of pro gear. when he found out i spent money on Morrow cables, he called me the classic "audiofool". though i told him i immediately heard a difference, i was accused of being faulty in not doing a double blind. his argument was also empirical in that data showed there was no better transfer of signal given whatever conductor used blah blah blah... and that if cables made a difference wouldn't clubs and sound companies be using them? well, no, conductor quality in a setting with such high ambient background noise, large space... makes no sense... and round we went.

really, i just wanted to enjoy my new cables. some hear it, some don't. why does it have to come to body blows?

Tell your buddy that just because he does sound for clubs does not mean he knows anything other than how to attach cables.

If he is interested in actually learning something he can start by reading the professional endorsements of Shunyata cables. Of course, we all know "The Stupid People" will say these professionals were bribed to endorse the product.

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Prof.html

Or the endorsements from high-end manufacturers.

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Man.html

There is a lot of good, technical information on the Shunyata web-site for those interested in learning versus those who are just interested in running their mouth.

Jhayman

Oh My God, LOL
How can it get any more biased, lol
That's the worst example you could have picked and only fuels the NON Believers..
To boot they developed their own test DCTC or whatever..Even more Biased..lol
Atleast find some credible articles from NON biased blind testers..
and NO I won't find them for you there are tons just use the search function in Google..
I mean electricity enters your home through standard builders wire, then you plug in a NEW $$ power cable then the electricity goes into your component then has to pass through all those teenie tiny solder traces running all over the place then into pllaces you can't even SEE and have no idea what kind of wire they have used their..
Still you think it makes a difference..
Bottom line is your stuff is onlly as good as it's weakest link..Period..
And Bluefox Stop calling people STUPID..It really shows your character
It's against the RULES here

Erik Tracy

Jhayman wrote: »

Oh My God, LOL
How can it get any more biased, lol
That's the worst example you could have picked and only fuels the NON Believers..
To boot they developed their own test DCTC or whatever..Even more Biased..lol
Atleast find some credible articles from NON biased blind testers..
and NO I won't find them for you there are tons just use the search function in Google..
I mean electricity enters your home through standard builders wire, then you plug in a NEW $$ power cable then the electricity goes into your component then has to pass through all those teenie tiny solder traces running all over the place then into pllaces you can't even SEE and have no idea what kind of wire they have used their..
Still you think it makes a difference..
Bottom line is your stuff is onlly as good as it's weakest link..Period..
And Bluefox Stop calling people STUPID..It really shows your character
It's against the RULES here

Again...where is your "proof"?

Back at ya!

Jhayman

I said use Google and you will find the light

Jhayman

Means nothing but one persons opinion..
Nice comment treitz3 you have been reported for potty mouth

Lets look at it from another angle, lets see...
I might be reaching here but I guess it's safe to say if you spend $20-50K on an AMP it MUST come with the BEST power cord avaiable correct..??
Because if it does not then OH MY GOD, OH MY GOD...
You mean I have to spend more than $20-50K for my AMP to sound it's best?
What are they using in there chicken wire

Toolfan66

You have been reported for potty mouth?? Serious?? LOL!!


Time to turn in your man card..

ZLTFUL

Jhayman wrote: »

Means nothing but one persons opinion..

And typically, I would agree with you...EXCEPT for the fact that you obviously have absolutely no clue how to read an oscilloscope trace because the traces do in fact show a measurable quantitative difference that could in fact be heard.

To show you proof in the FOR argument category, read the following:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0911/jps_labs_ultraconductor_2_cables.htm
http://www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm


Typically, in a debate, the burden of proof lies with the person challenging the debated assertion. In this case, YOU, Jhayman, have challenged the assertion that cables make a difference. You challenge the assertion by *saying* that they don't and yet you bring no evidence to the fore as to why they do not except for your *opinion*. This does not quantify the burden of proof. Burden of proof requires empirical data and verifiable fact. None of which you have presented.
I have presented you multiple factual arguments to show that you are indeed, incorrect. And yet you continue to respond that "You are all wrong, I am right." Without providing one iota of factual evidence to argue your case.

Simply put (as simple seems to be the only language you seem to understand), you have been proven wrong time and time again and now it is time for you to dust off yourself from the verbal **** whooping you just received and go home to mommy.

BlueFox

ZLTFUL wrote: »

And typically, I would agree with you...EXCEPT for the fact that you obviously have absolutely no clue how to read an oscilloscope trace because the traces do in fact show a measurable quantitative difference that could in fact be heard.

Good post.

Jhayman

I am not name calling or using rude comments aimed at others so Please Stop insulting me..or Condesending
All I'm saying is I don't believe they make a NOTICIBLE difference, maybe you can see it on an Oscilloscope But I believe you can't hear it and I'm not alone..
Ok here are some I have found in a couple of minutes..
Again Opinions from other people using multiple products including the DEBUNKING of SHUNYATA
http://www.10audio.com/diy_power_conditioner.htm
http://www.head-fi.org/t/247003/shunyata-debunked
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?65874-Power-cable-ripoff
http://hifi-unlimited.blogspot.ca/2009/08/dabbling-in-dark-side-shunyatas-dark.html
http://www.avguide.com/forums/shunyata-research-black-mamba-cx-and-hc-cx-power-cables
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

BlueFox

DSkip wrote: »

When have you tried after-market power cables?

My guess is never. It is easier to make things up and then search the Internet for similar opinions. Of course any data that refutes their opinion is biased, wrong, or ignored. The culture of stupidity that some embrace just amazes me to no end.

Jhayman

I myself personally never but I have been to Highend Audio stores and asked for comparisons..TODAY as a matter of fact my friend and I spent the better part of today downtown at Bay Bloor Radio in downtown Toronto..
My friend also owns a Nordost highend power cable..
Him and I could not tell anything.
We were in the Macintosh Room, The Peachtree Room, with 40K Sonus Faber Speakers I think thats what they were called..
They even sell you Hospital grade outlets..Which are supposed to be a match for HIGHend power cables..
and really after spending about 4-6 hours with a salesman my friend knew from other stores in the past, he DID not come right out and say they really don't make a difference but we could tell he wanted to..
But we walked out of there with $3K in merchandise so I guess he was happy
So long story short again, I guess 99% of the population is living with CRAP sound if they don't have a HIGHEND power cable to bring out the best in their stereo in a box, or even the one's who spring for the nice stuff still have crap sound, with out the Cable..lol
I'm out of here....

Jhayman

Whatever Bluefox, You don't know me yet you presume too..
It's OK I would be very upset too if I bought into the power cable thingy and then got it home and it did nothing I see why you get so upset..
Like i said there are alot more of these opinions than YOUR opinions on the net..
I searched for all of 3 min just to feed the mouths..

Jhayman

night night

ZLTFUL

So you use forum post *opinions* to prove your point while I post links to quantitative and verifiable fact to prove mine.

I reiterate that the burden of proof is to provide FACTS to disprove the original assertion and not opinions expressed ad naseum on forums.
Case in point, you saying "You're wrong and I'm right" over and over again does not make it a fact. But you being wrong by failing to fulfill the burden of proof makes my assertion that you are wrong a fact.

Another fact, I have more than proven my argument. In any debate on any continent on the planet, you lost.

Requiescam, dum vos passeres et deficere.
(And since I am fairly certain that you don't speak a lick of Latin, translated, "I rest whilst you flounder and fail.")

Jhayman

What fact do you speak of?
Testimonials from The Phil Harmonic, or the oscilloscope screen?
I have not read anything that shows 100% proof that they make a difference..
Besides if I can't hear it then it makes no difference..
And what does Latin have to do with this thread, other than another attempt to make yourself feel superior to me because I do not speak Latin..
Your ego must feel pretty good eh!

ZLTFUL

Jhayman wrote: »

night night

Weren't you going to bed?
I am pretty sure everyone else was looking forward to that as well.

But let's get back to the concept of burden of proof since you aren't grasping it.

Fact: Oscilloscope traces don't lie. Can they be fudged? Sure they can but it isn't worth the trouble to do so when you are simply sharing your findings in a review of a product. But the point being, the traces posted show that there is indeed enough of a difference to be heard. This is black and white physics not some random made up guess. If your ears are in proper working order for an average human being, then those traces show enough of a difference to be audible. Again, this is a fact. Not an opinion.

Fact: SEVERAL high end audio magazines have ran double and even quadruple blind tests on this very subject matter. But then when we go back to burden of proof, it is YOUR job to prove yourself right. Not my job to continually prove you wrong. You can Google just as well as I can. And instead of posting forum links filled with opinions, try looking at articles that take an objective and quantitative look at the subject.
The first link I posted explains electrical properties and scientific theories. These aren't assumptions. These aren't opinions. These are guidelines and base measures used as law in electrical engineering. In short, science hasn't been able to come up with better so these are the rules used to govern our knowledge of electricity.
The second link is a bit more of an opinion piece. But was more to show you that opinions exist on both sides of the argument.
The thing is though, the folks on the pro side of the argument are more likely to use measurable and provable data to support their opinions. Opinions that are confirmed by fact actually become fact.
The con side of the argument however, never provides empirical data to prove their points or disprove the oppositions points. Opinions without validation of factual data to back them up are still opinions.
The third link again shows proven scientific data to back up the presentation. It's black and white and if you weren't so intent on trying not to be wrong, you would actually see how wrong you really are.

You are again proving my point for me.
You state, "If I can't hear it then it makes no difference". So your ears are the benchmark standard for all hearing in the world? That is an amazing accomplishment beating out all of the other folks in the world and all of that sound measuring equipment. Your evolution must be simply astounding.

Another flaw in your argument is your inability to keep your story straight.
You state you have never personally owned the equipment to compare and then claim that you did listen in a store with supposedly high end gear and couldn't hear a difference. I am also assuming that it wasn't a blind comparison you did. Mental preconceived attitudes have a huge influence. You go in with the attitude that something isn't going to live up to its claim. It's called the placebo effect and it has a real and documented effect on how things are perceived.
(and really...? tube amps are your argument point? What's next...are you going to claim that a tube's age or construction doesn't make a difference in sound quality either?)

Your claim of 99% of the population seems a little far fetched by the way. Especially when you consider that on this particular forum, 99% of the population disagree with you.

As for my ego, it is just fine thanks. It gets stroked many times a day by simpletons like you who can't present a coherent argument that even remotely suggests a true cognitive understanding of the life, universe and everything.

BlueFox

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Weren't you going to bed? I am pretty sure everyone else was looking forward to that as well.

LOL. Even better post.

headrott

headrott wrote: »

I would say the proof is in the ear and the gear. Your system must have a minimum level of resolution to hear differences in cables (power and otherwise). Unless you have trained yourself to hear these differences (your ear) and you have high enough resolution audio coming from your gear you cannot hear the or become aware of the differences and you are talking out of your rear.

Again, please read my question from my quote above and get back to us about it.

headrott wrote: »

Not trying to sound rude, but it sounds like you are doing as well as you can hear and conceptualize. Can you conceed that there may be differences that you are not hearing (due to your gear, possibly?) and that you are not aware of all possibilities how and why a power cable can make an audible difference?

Perhaps for the third time, you have missed my post Jhayman? Or are you simply ignoring it?

Interestingly, I just finished installing a furutech power cable and Fi-28M (Rhodium) male plug into my voltage regulator. I'll let you know what difference in sound it makes tomorrow after a listening session. In the meantime, could you please respond to the question/statement I asked? Thank you.

Toolfan66

Nobody said every one else is listening to crap (99% of the population) nobody is telling you you have to use them or believe in them.

Most of the population doesn't even know about aftermarket cables. And no one is here selling them, nor pushing them on others. Only sharing there experiences with them.

cstmar01

End of argument he claimed seeing HE can't hear it what's the point. So just because someone else can't must mean everyone else must follow his opinion right? I always love the well I have never done anything myself I just read what others post and agree. Sorry but trying something for yourself speaks volumes above I just agree with some guy I read about.

And there are sonus faber speakers. None called 40k. So again you really have no idea what you were listening to or familiar with it.

Jhayman

They cost $40K
$40,000

Amanti Futura
ok Geez I forgot the name