Cardas Internal Wire Replacement For The SDA SRS 1.2TL
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I'm guessing 30 feet for my 4.1 TL's would be plenty.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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DarqueKnight wrote: »The AudioQuest GO-4 wire is here. I ordered 80 feet, but AQ threw in an extra 4 feet. AQ shipped my order the same day they received it (Tuesday) and I received the wire on Saturday. I wondered why the box was so big: the cable was neatly coiled and shrink-wrapped around a wooden spool, then the spool was wrapped in thick wads of kraft paper.
All bulk wire from Audioquest comes this way unless you get the spool pull boxes. Can't wait for the compare but I kinda already know what the results are going to be.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Lets get the verdict, and then group buy!
I'm in......for audioquest not Cardas just don't have the time for Cardas:cheesygrin: -
Ray,
Where did you order it from??
Thanks!! -
Time LOL I don't get it but ok. I also like Audioquest over Cardas very Day of the week. I however am going to make some time for Cardas , I have a few IC's but no speaker wire. I'm going to get some from work and test the hell out of it. We have Crosslink in stock.I'm in......for audioquest not Cardas just don't have the time for Cardas:cheesygrin:Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Ray,
Where did you order it from??
Thanks!!
Audio Advisor.
This wire is even more difficult to work with than the Cardas wire.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Time LOL I don't get it but ok. I also like Audioquest over Cardas very Day of the week. I however am going to make some time for Cardas , I have a few IC's but no speaker wire. I'm going to get some from work and test the hell out of it. We have Crosslink in stock.
Mantis it was a joke about how much time it took to get the coating off the Cardas in order to use it without soldering. Honestly I have had good luck with both brands, although I have more AQ stuff than Cardas. I'm not opposed to either both are quality wire. -
Agreed but in my experience with Cardas ( it's only been a little over 4 years now) so far I never got excited about it or noticed any big changes in systems around the store or in the field. I will go on record I have done little shootouts with their stuff. I plan on spending some time after Christmas. The build quality is top notch but so is the price. I'm just on the fence if it's better then Audioquest or Kimber Kable .Mantis it was a joke about how much time it took to get the coating off the Cardas in order to use it without soldering. Honestly I have had good luck with both brands, although I have more AQ stuff than Cardas. I'm not opposed to either both are quality wire.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Agreed but in my experience with Cardas ( it's only been a little over 4 years now) so far I never got excited about it or noticed any big changes in systems around the store or in the field. I will go on record I have done little shootouts with their stuff. I plan on spending some time after Christmas. The build quality is top notch but so is the price. I'm just on the fence if it's better then Audioquest or Kimber Kable .
Mantis -
Did you give the wire enough time to break in? (It might have been difficult since your evaluations were in the field instead of at home.) I remember purchasing a set of high-end speakerwire to replace their "lower cost" version of speakerwire. I heard no difference at first, but after a couple of days of having the new speakerwire in place, I started hearing pleasant differences betwee the wiring.
I have never used Cardas wiring myself since I am into Neotech, but I do use their binding posts. The improvement they contribute is very impressive.Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.
The other 2% will work for WalMart. -
Lets get the verdict, and then group buy!
I may be interested in the AQs pending on DKs evaluations and cost.Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.
The other 2% will work for WalMart. -
The right SDA SRS 1.2TL has has all its internal wiring replaced with AudioQuest GO-4. My initial impression comparing the brand new, un-broken in GO-4 on the right to the broken in Cardas wire on the left is that the GO-4 is about 10% better in imaging properties, clarity and detail.
When the Cardas wire was installed in the right 1.2TL, there was a hard lateral shift of the sound stage 2 feet to the right. There was no lateral sound stage shift between the Cardas on the left and the GO-4 on the right. Center images remained in place. There was a little more apparent lound level, clarity, detail and depth on the right side.
I did not pre-condition the GO-4 on the Cable Cooker because I wanted to hear what it sounded like new and I wanted to hear the changes as it broke in.
I took a little detour and installed the Cardas tweeter, driver and SDA inductor wiring harnesses in the SDA SRS's in my home theater system.
The SDA SRS's in the home theater system get a shot of Cardas.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Raife, any further updates on how this evaluation is going? Just trying to sort out whether this would be a worthwhile endeavor for my 4.1TL's. The advantage of doing the 4.1TL's over your speakers, of course, is that there is considerably less wire and therefore considerably less cost. Very curious about this upgrade....
Thanks in advance.
Also curious if anyone else is considering this? If there's a decent cost savings to be realized by ordering the cable in larger quantities, maybe a group of us could purchase a larger spool and then divide it up.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
Raife, any further updates on how this evaluation is going? Just trying to sort out whether this would be a worthwhile endeavor for my 4.1TL's. The advantage of doing the 4.1TL's over your speakers, of course, is that there is considerably less wire and therefore considerably less cost. Very curious about this upgrade....
This evaluation is going great. Fifty feet (25' of red and 25' of black) of Cardas wire, which will be used to finish the SRS rewire, is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. When the Cardas wire goes on sale again, I will order enough to rewire my three pairs of CRS+'s.
Each pair of my CRS+'s will require 17 feet of black Cardas wire and 7 feet of red Cardas wire. Each of my individual CRS+'s requires the following:
SDA inductor: 10" red, 10" black.
Tweeter: 20" red, 20" black.
Stereo Driver: 20" red, 20" black.
Dimensional Driver: 20" red, 20" black.
Binding Post: 13" red, 13" black (x2).
Binding Post SDA pin: 2" black.
Binding Post SDA blade: 2" black.
The SDA cables of the SRS and CRS+'s will be replaced with Cardas 9.5 AWG (20' of red and 20' of black for the SRS's and 15' of red for each of the CRS+ pairs).DarqueKnight wrote: »While I am waiting on some Cardas wire to arrive so that I can finish rewiring my SDA SRS's, I used some of the leftover GO-4 to make some jumpers.
Working with the Cardas wire won't seem like such a chore after dealing with the GO-4 solid core wire.:twisted:Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »The SDA cables of the SRS and CRS+'s will be replaced with Cardas 9.5 AWG (20' of red and 20' of black for the SRS's and 15' of red for each of the CRS+ pairs).
Correction: I forgot that I use a Dreadnought with the CRS+'s, in that case each CRS+ pair would require 15' of red (x2) and 15' of black (x2) of the Cardas 9.5 AWG.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
When I replaced the Cardas litz wire in my SDA SRS 1.2TL's with AudioQuest GO-4 solid core hyper-litz wire, the Cardas wire was moved to the SDA SRS speakers in my home theater system. During listening evaluations of the rewired SRS's in stereo mode, I heard the same spatial, detail and clarity improvements as with the SDA SRS 1.2TL's. In five channel home theater mode, the previous coherency of the front stage was diminished due to the increased clarity and weight of the front speakers. This was particularly noticeable when sounds panned from side to side.
Fortunately, I had enough leftover Cardas wire to rewire the LSi9 center channel speakers. The LSi9's 9 AWG stranded copper/silver coated copper jumpers were replaced with jumpers made from 3" lengths of AudioQuest GO-4 hyper-litz speaker wire. Rewiring the LSi9's improved the clarity, detail and sonic weight of the LSi9's and brought the front stage back into coherency.
Figure 1. Rewiring SDA SRS's in home theater system with Cardas 15.5 AWG Litz wire.
Figure 2. Rewiring LSi9 center channel speakers with Cardas 15.5 AWG litz wire. Stock wire is 16 AWG stranded
OFC.
Figure 3. Rewired LSi9 center channel speakers with Cardas 15.5 AWG litz wire.
Figure 4. LSi9 jumpers made from AudioQuest GO-4 solid core hyper-litz wire.
Figure 5. Listening evaluation with rewired LSi9's.
Bear in mind that the electronics in my home theater system are very modest in resolution compared to those of my two channel system. The electronics, source component and cables are as follows:
Pioneer BDP-09FD Blu-ray/DVD/CD player.
Sony TA-P9000 5.1 channel analog preamp.
Adcom GFA-5500 power amplifier.
Monster Cable Z2 reference speaker cables.
Monster Cable Z100i interconnects.
PS Audio Statement SC power cords.
I expected improvements in the LSi9's clarity and detail performance. I was very pleasantly surprised at the spatial improvements: increased depth and width of the sound stage. The LSi9's sounded "ok" in their stock form, sounded great with improved crossovers and now sound excellent and very "high-endish" with the Cardas wire replacement. I don't attribute all the improvement to just the Cardas wire. I think the Cardas wire was the synergistic "missing link" that facilitated all the other improvements meshing together.
Before I write a full report on the installation of the Cardas wire in my SDA SRS's and LSi9's, I want to replace the inductors in the LSI9's and replace the SRS's interconnect cable with one made from Cardas 9.5 AWG litz wire. Finding suitable air core perfect lay replacements, with the correct DCR, for the laminated steel core inductors is proving difficult.
Cardas Wire Makes No Difference?
From Roger Russel's website:
"If I don?t believe that expensive speaker wire makes an audible difference, why is it used inside the IDS-25 speaker system? The answer is very simple. IDS is out to sell speakers and not everyone believes in ordinary wire. The explanation is the same as what McIntosh found at shows and is described in the section above. Cardas wire does not sound any better but it may help to sell speakers to those who are concerned about wire and are not convinced that ordinary wire is just as good. The increase in cost is negligible compared to the drivers, enclosures and equalizer."
The LSi9's are the third pair of speakers I have installed Cardas wire in. In each pair of speakers, every aspect of the speaker's performance was improved. The differences are easily heard when one speaker is wired with standard wire and the other is wired with Cardas. The improvements in spatial properties is striking when both speakers are rewired with Cardas. I have never heard the $18,000 IDS-25 speaker system. It could very well be that Cardas wire provided no audible improvement over ordinary wire in the IDS-25. However, if Cardas wire provided easily audible improvements in the LSI9, which are speakers of moderate resolution costing $1,150 per pair and used with moderate resolution electronics, I would expect Cardas wire to provide similar and greater improvements, particularly with the high resolution, high end equipment I would expect an $18,000 speaker system to be used with.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Ray, did you ever end up re-wiring your CRS+'s with the Cardas wire? Wondering how it went?Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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In the field you don't get the chance to break in anything on first visit but we like to schedule a 2nd visit to recalibrate given system and tweak it to perfection.PolkMaster1 wrote: »Mantis -
Did you give the wire enough time to break in? (It might have been difficult since your evaluations were in the field instead of at home.) I remember purchasing a set of high-end speakerwire to replace their "lower cost" version of speakerwire. I heard no difference at first, but after a couple of days of having the new speakerwire in place, I started hearing pleasant differences betwee the wiring.
I have never used Cardas wiring myself since I am into Neotech, but I do use their binding posts. The improvement they contribute is very impressive.
Now what I really noticed on a system I recently did was incredible.
Here is a system detail.
Definitive Technology BP8080 mains , center and surround package.
Pioneer Elite SC-68 receiver
Panasonic 65 inch VT50
Integra DBS50.3 BD player
Apple TV
Cablebox
Panamax 5400 surge
All Cardas wiring including HDMI
When I first Installed the system , I had some trouble keeping the sub's in check. They seemed to load the room and over power everything even properly calibrated. I started to believe the subs had an overly exasperated dynamic range. Give them a little they gave to much.
So I ran MCACC again and got different results. I decided to give up on MCACC and do a full manual calibration. I got the subs to dial in better as I had to dial them back 2db on the one and 3 on the other as it was closer to a wall.
I went back after 2 weeks for a recalibration and any questions about the system. Shockingly the system really smoothed out. Break in was a under statement on these subs , they where blending in so much better then when out of the box. Crosslink speaker wire for all channels was a very nice plus. I sat after a MCACC run and was ready to tweak to the room and for double duty , I sat the remote down and just listened to music I brought with me. I was so pleased with the tone , accuracy and realism that I didn't change anything. With dual sub's I always calibrate one at a time and then together. Man let me tell you this system was pure magic. The dynamic range was off the charts but stayed completely balanced. I was shocked in the overall clarity and room filling sound the BP8080's produced. Incredible , simply incredible. I have Installed these speakers with other combinations and they never performed like this. I had Audioquest and Integra on other setups and neither came close to this setup.
I ran Avengers and it was down right scary how hard the subs hit and how everything was so damn balanced. I almost want to bring a full BP8080 system home and recreate what I heard in dudes house. So did Cardas Impress? Absolutely , they are a very natural sounding cable with the ability for you to hear every last detail. They have earned a place on "Mantis recommended Cables" List. My list is very limited as I have experienced some cables that cost a lot and don't perform to the dollar. IMO Cardas does. Neutral and clear is probably the best way to describe them.
On a side note I have been running Crosslinks in my system for about a month or so now and I'll be honest , I have no desire to put back Audioquest or Kimber in their place. I'm extremely happy with them. They are not mega priced cables in a few hundred bucks for a 8 foot pair. Fully worth the asking price at full retail.
I'm inspired to give some internal Cardas a whirl considering the price difference between the it and Go4.
I do however understand the Go4 outperformed the Cardas in this case but at a higher cost. I'm wondering DK if you feel the sonic benefits are dollar to dollar worth it or did the Cardas seal that spot?
If you did into both companies , you will find many things the same. How they accomplish their goals one would thing George worked for Audioquest at one time or Audioquest consulted with George for improving their technics. Either way both companies are fantastic and I would always be proud to have either in my system/s.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
@DK
Yeah, hi, been gone a long time. First thing I noted is that you did not follow George's recommended way of removing the individual insulators in your original attempt. Also, your results directly contradict mine when I replaced the internal wiring on my 2.3 TLs a year ago with Cardas 15.5 chassis wire. But then, I also followed all of George's recommendations in prepping the cable for installation, so I would wonder if you had actually used a soldering pot, or at least a soldering iron, to remove the individual conductor insulation if you would have gotten better results. That said, I still strongly recommend Cardas chassis wire over any tin plated copper.
Further, while I never posted notes regarding my contacts and discussions with Cardas, but they assured me that the 15.5 litz chassis wire would excel in applications such as when I replaced my 2.3 TL wiring harness, or your attempt here. I cannot imagine why they would change their mind. And I see in later posts that you noted increased detail. My 2.3s provide more detail than most headphones, so if you actually follow all of George's recommendations, and maybe check http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?126065-My-2.3-TL-rebuild-so-close-it-hurts for a few tidbits, you might be surprised in a good way.
@Mantis The individual conductors in Litz are insulated. It's not just the outer jacket like a regular cable. George Cardas has recommendations on the web site for prepping Litz. You really need to follow them. I've seen many posts where people tried various methods of scraping off the insulation. All will damage the conductors.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
George Cardas has recommendations on the web site for prepping Litz. You really need to follow them.
Do you have a link to their site with these recommendations? I was just looking through their site, couldn't find these recommendations. Thanks!Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
Hmmm... looks like it's gone. Here's the email exchange I had with one of their guys when I was researching this. The emails even mention George's discussion of how to terminate litz. No idea why it's gone now.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the response. I had read George's posts regarding terminating Cardas litz cables, and he mentioned both soldering pots or using a soldering iron. The iron method sounds more tedious, but wouldn't have a problem picking up a soldering pot for this project. What other special tools would be required? Most of the posts I've read regarding this, including George's, made it sound like, while not as simple as terminating standard cable, it wasn't that complicated a process. I already have a 85 watt digital Weller. I also saw that you have termination kits. That's also something I might be interested in, as the Cardas dealer I work with doesn't carry those, but does have several gauges of litz hook-up wire available.
The speakers are a set of Polk SRS 2.3TLs, and I'm also rebuilding/upgrading the crossovers and upgrading the tweeters at the same time.
Thanks,
Rob
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Brian Von Bork <****@cardas.com> wrote:
Rob,
Thank you for contacting Cardas Audio.
Yes, our 15.5 AWG is a great choice for this. We have it in single conductor and a twisted pair. Same for our 11.5 AWG, both would be excellent depending on the speaker.
We use litz copper conductors and therefore every strand of copper used to make a single conductor has a clear coat to protect it from aging and oxidation. This coating requires a special termination process and tools. We use a solder pot to burn off this clear coat and tin the ends of the conductors. Without a solder pot it is not possible to terminate Cardas cables.
Cheers,
Brian Von Bork
Cardas Audio
480 11th Street, SE
Bandon, OR 97411
office:
fax:
cell:
www.cardas.com
www.facebook.com/CardasAudio
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Rob Hughes <robert.d.hughes@****.com> wrote:
Hi,
I was looking about for some cable to build a new harness for the internals of a pair of speakers I'm rebuilding. I saw the 15.5 ga. chassis wire and wondered if that would be suitable for such a project. If not, is there a recommendation for wiring to replace the stock harness? The stock harness is just standard 16 ga. tinned copper in a pvc jacket.
Thanks,
RobTurntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Interesting, I've never seen a solder pot before, but just watched a youtube. So what exactly do you do? Heat up a bunch of solder in the pot, dip the stranded wire in for a few seconds to melt off the insulation, and then what? The strands just get tinned in that same process? Can't say i like the idea of melting insulation into solder, although I'm sure it completely burns off.
Also using that method would mean that you need to crimp the quick connects onto the tinned wire, not sure if that degrades the connection in any way.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
It does burn off, not melt. And yes, a solder pot is just a pot with a bunch of solder in it. I got some other tips while I was working on it, like if you quickly wipe the wire with a rag, you get all the extra solder off and it just looks like a normal tinned wire. If I was going to use quick disconnects on the ends, I solder them though, or at least solder and crimp.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Ray had been saying earlier in this thread (I believe it's this thread...) that a crimp with no solder gives a better electrical connection.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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Ray had been saying earlier in this thread (I believe it's this thread...) that a crimp with no solder gives a better electrical connection.
This is true to a degree... that termination can deteriorate much faster or degrade over time compared to a sealed termination of a soldered joint. Oxidation can occur. -
Ray, did you ever end up re-wiring your CRS+'s with the Cardas wire? Wondering how it went?
I have not re-wired my CRS+'s. I am waiting for Soniccraft to have another sale.@DK
...so I would wonder if you had actually used a soldering pot, or at least a soldering iron, to remove the individual conductor insulation if you would have gotten better results. That said, I still strongly recommend Cardas chassis wire over any tin plated copper.
It appears that you did not read my follow-up comments in this thread regarding Cardas wire.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »It appears that you did not read my follow-up comments in this thread regarding Cardas wire.
I did get there eventually. I just never went back and edited the original response. I prefer to allow my stupidity to be preserved for posterity, that others may learn from my fail.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
It's most pleasing to have you back on the forums. Clean off those cobwebs and go do some logs.
Heya Skip, hopefully you're not alone in that sentiment
Cobwebs are all cleaned out, listening room is back in shape, and I've got about 30 hours in since the weekend. One advantage to working from home is that I can play DJ while sitting on mute on yet another conference call that I don't need to be on. Turntable is giving me a bit of a fit though. Not terribly thrilled about that, but maybe that'll be the excuse to step up to something better. Or I'll figure out what's wrong with it. Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
I know I'm a bit late in this thread. I'm going to re-wire my SRS's and I have looked through many of these threads for the total amount needed. I have seen the total length necessary for several of the other speakers but not for the SRS. I've probably missed it somewhere, but can someone who has performed this mod tell me how much wire I need? I'm going to do the speaker harnesses and also from the crossover to the posts and crossover interconnects. Obviously to make sure that I have single wire runs (no splices) I will order some extra. But at the prices for this wire I really don't want a lot of extra... Thanks!SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods...
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Here is a wiring diagram with specific lengths for the driver-to-crossover wires:
The binding post wires were 24".
The tweeter wire lengths are given in the last entries in the table below:
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Thanks Raife! I get 622"/speaker - I would not have guessed ther was that much wire inside those cabinets. But thinking about all of the stereo drivers/dimensional drivers/ tweeters/etc., I can see how this adds up.
I know you have experience with several kinds of wire, including high quality litz and high quality single conductor (Audioquest GO-4), etc. Do you have any experience with or thoughts on using the Goertz wire? It's claim to fame is low impedance of 2 - 4 ohm that is very close to that of the speaker. I know all the high-end wire vendors have their own slant on what makes their wire superior but I havn't seen much. On their web site they show an oscilloscope trace of a nice square wave compared to that of a 'normal' cable (not so square). I don't think the Goertze comes any smaller than 13g so this may not be a good choice. I know this is high dollar cable, but I can get it for $11/ft, or almost 1/3 less than the AQ. Do you have an opinion about using this wire for this project and maybe also for the crossover cable?
Thanks.SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods...
