New horn speakers are in!

zingo

You have described the sound very well of the system. It is forward with being harsh, and detailed but very musical. My friend was joking that where most speaker designers try to manipulate physics to get small speakers to sound big, these speakers don't have too. I've found there is nothing I like more than my speakers not being the limiting factor on dynamics or clarity when listening to music.

zingo

I should be able to snap some more pictures tonight to post.

zingo

Cabinet top with access plate, cherry wood finish, smith horn mid/high unit, crossover mounted in the bottom of the horn unit

zingo

Motorboards with 3" mouths, mounted woofer, and woofer chamber.

tonyb

Congrats dude, those look pretty cool man. My question for you is, how well do they transmit tone, and weight of the music ? I know with horns, they show your electronics faults right up front, no glossing over it. Do these horns have you second guessing your source material or other gear ?

May sound like a silly question, but to anyone who's heard horns before, they differ greatly, but the right horn on the right electronics, tubes baby, they can be a great emotional experience.

zingo

I've noticed that content really makes or breaks the speakers and good stuff is great and bad stuff wants me to turn the system off. I knew this would be the case, and am okay with this "side effect". I have a lot of well recorded music and will continue to add to my collection.

When I got my tube amp (6L6, KT88, or EL34), I had my Klipsch Fortes which are 98 db sensitive, and they were a great match. With these new speakers, the amps matches them very well also, and I couldn't be happier. I am going to do some more tube rolling as I've been running 6L6s thus far, but that amp's not leaving those speakers. I might play around with my source which is a Squeezebox Touch, but that will be hard to beat functionality wise, if that is an aural issue.

indyhawg

Nice pics Zingo. Thanks for sharing. I will have to keep these speakers in mind whenever I decide to move on from my Fortes.

zingo

I think I have the horns all dialed in. I had to bump down the output of the the high/mid unit to better match the lows in my room. Also better sealed the cabinets into the corners and switched to the 6" motor boards which added better bunch. These speakers sound amazing with tons of punch, dynamics, and clarity, and no compression or distortion. :cool:

organ

Awesome. Thanks for sharing the pics. Good to hear you got good results with some tweaking.
I think those are the same tweeters I installed in my Cornwall when I had them. Very good stuff.

zingo

Eminence makes one higher tweeter than that model which I may try in the future, but it does sound very good. The mid is their top model, and has a great amount of presence and body. I'm sure it helps the the woofer comes up higher than most, but the mids horns are much better than anything that would come stock on a "corner horn".

I've got some pipe insulation and will be playing with the cabinets once more tonight to see if it makes a difference.

The next project on them would be to rewire everything, because I have mostly quick connects for the ease of tuning. When I find some good wire I would want to use for all the leads, I'll pull it all apart and and rewire and solder the contacts.

organ

Sounds like a plan. It's always good when you know you still have room for improvement. That's what I love about horns. So many things to try.

iskandam

Are you going to pimp out the crossovers with premium parts like you did with your Fortes after you're done tweaking the rest?

zingo

The crossover components are already good with Sonicap capacitors, Erse Super-Q inductors, and Crites autotransformers. My next step with them will probably be new wiring (Cardas?) and in/out binding posts on the horns instead of crimped leads.

zingo

Tried the pipe insulation to better seal the rear of the cabinet to the walls, and it sounded worse! It functionally softened the punch and detail of the bass. I was not expecting this as there is about a 1/2" gap that I was filling with insulation, but not an improvement. It's funny because the Klipschorn guys swear by this mod, and Dana the designer of the cabinets said don't bother, but I tried anyway; what do I know?

One improvement worth doing was sealing the cabinets along the tops against the walls, but that physically does define the height of the horn mouth. Isn't physics funny?

organ

Unexpected outcome there. I've also read about it on the Klipsch forum.
An interesting approach would be the sealed backs like the 60th anniversary KHorns, but not easy to do.

zingo

I thought about that as well because Speakerlab did the same thing for a while, but that is not an easy project as I'd have to match the cherry wood and stain. I guess I could rip a few panels just to test, but the speakers sound good now and that's all I care about. I'm sure when I move them in the future, I'll have to completely re-tune them to the room.

I'm now playing with their amplification. I started with 6L6s which sound great. Just swapped in KT88s and I don't think I like the sound as much. It seems to be a little less focused, and I can't hear any improvements that would make keeping them worth it with those speakers. Next will probably be the EL34s to see how the horns react.

kcoc321

IF/ when you want to match stain, Daly's in Bellevue is great.
Bring them in the piece you want to match, and the new wood sample and they will come up with a matching stain solution.
Used them to match some maple handrails (WAY too expensive custom made in BC) to some Brazilian cherry floors and they gave us a custom mix, aklyline dye and then wood stain, with exact instructions. Came out perfect.
http://dalyspaint.com/

zingo

Thanks!

zingo

Guess it was about time to update my system showcase: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=71970

organ

Yeah, it's not easy to make the back panel and finding the right stain. But like you said, it sounds good now and that's all that matters.
You're right, KT88 are not that popular with the very high efficiency crowd. I would also pick your 6L6 over KT88 on those horns.
I think you'll like the EL34. I've tried EL34, EL84, 6L6, 6C3CC, 2A3 and 300B. I still like EL34 the most. The thing I like most about the EL34 is that it has the most "tube sound" and it's very warm. I'm just worried about the =C= EL34. It's an amazing tube but production has stopped for about 2 years now and prices are going up. I plan to stock up on a lifetime supply. Been enjoying that tube for 10 years now.
Are you planning to have an amp built or are you looking at an aftermarket one? EL34 in single ended and triode connected sounds awesome on high efficiency.

zingo

I actually liked the 6L6s better than the EL34s with my Klipsch Fortes, so I started with them for the new horns. I'll dig out the EL34s tomorrow and give them a listen as I'm 0-2 with horns and KT88s. I did really like 300Bs when I had them, but they get too expensive.
There is a local gent just across the boarder in Vancouver who builds custom SE amps. The model I'm eyeing of his come stock with two 6V6s and one 6DJ8. However, the input tube obviously has many variants and the output tubes can be 6V6, 6L6, EL34, KT88, or any variants; which is great because those are all tubes that my current amp can use also.

zingo

The EL34s do sound good. I'm currently running Shuguang EL34Bs which aren't the best, especially coming from SED =C= 6L6GCs. I'll probably need to grab some good EL34s to get a better feel. The bass does seem to be a little weaker than the 6L6CG, but I'll listen for a while. The biggest reason I switched from the EL34B to the 6L6GCs with the Klipsch Fortes was because I felt they weren't as detailed.

mhardy6647

Not that anyone's asking... but, I gotta say... I like triodes :-P
(although YMMV and all that)

zingo

Agreed. I did like the 300B and 845 amps when I had them. My next triode amp, other than the little SE EL34/6L6 wired in triode, would probably be a flea power type. Maybe a 45? I've also been eyeing the Bottlehead S.E.X. amp as I've heard good things with both horns and headphones. Any ideas that are on the cheaper end?

mhardy6647

With all due respect to the Bottlehead family of products (of which I own several)... your new speakers deserve better than the S.E.X. amp. Nothing against it, but you're in a different league than S.E.X.'s target demographic :-) If you're gonna go Bottlehead, consider the Stereomour or the Paramount monoblocks.

If you've got 100+ dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter, yeah, think about SE 45. See if you can try before you buy, though... just in case. EDIT: Heh, sorry, I already said that; sheesh, I am pretty hackneyed, ain't I?

(and you already know how I feel about 2A3s...)

heiney9

zingo wrote: »

The EL34s do sound good. I'm currently running Shuguang EL34Bs which aren't the best, especially coming from SED =C= 6L6GCs. I'll probably need to grab some good EL34s to get a better feel. The bass does seem to be a little weaker than the 6L6CG, but I'll listen for a while. The biggest reason I switched from the EL34B to the 6L6GCs with the Klipsch Fortes was because I felt they weren't as detailed.

How many EL34's do you need? I am probably going to sell my EL34 based amp now that I have a 6L6 based amp, but I'm not including all the EL34 tubes. I have some Siemens E34L made by Tesla (not JJ) and a pair of 80's Tesla EL34's I would probably sell. My amp only took a pair so these are pairs only. I have a quad of SED =C= EL34's but I'm keeping those in case I ever get the urge to go EL34 again. I am impressed with the SED =C= 6L6GC's, just bought a 2nd back-up quad for the new amp.

Let me know if you are interested.

H9

zingo

It's a PP amp, so I would need quads unfortunately, but thanks for the offer. I may grab some SED =C= EL34s because of their reputation, but I've heard decent things about the new production JJ E34Ls as well. I'd really like to get my ears on some Svetlana =C= too.

heiney9

The JJ E34L's are the exact same construction as my early 90's Siemens. They are based on the Genelax KT77 and they are able to dissipate more plate voltage so they output a little more power. They have a huge bottom end and nice midrange and highs. The SED =C= have slightly less bass "heft" but the soundstage is more encompassing and the highs are as detailed but very sweet and euphoric and midrange has more flesh, comparatively. I like them both, but overall the SED =C= has a better tone and nicer presentation.

I have heard that JJ is once again have some QC issues with the E34L so be sure and buy them from a reputable dealer that can give you a warranty.

zingo

mhardy6647 wrote: »

With all due respect to the Bottlehead family of products (of which I own several)... your new speakers deserve better than the S.E.X. amp. Nothing against it, but you're in a different league than S.E.X.'s target demographic :-) If you're gonna go Bottlehead, consider the Stereomour or the Paramount monoblocks.

If you've got 100+ dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter, yeah, think about SE 45. See if you can try before you buy, though... just in case. EDIT: Heh, sorry, I already said that; sheesh, I am pretty hackneyed, ain't I?

(and you already know how I feel about 2A3s...)

Thanks for the heads-up on the S.E.X. amp and I'll steer away from that one for now. However, single tube per channel designs like Pete Millett's Jonokuchi using 13EM7 tubes seems pretty cool.


I know you love your 2A3s, but not having heard them or the 45s, what's your take on both tubes?

mhardy6647

45s are hifi magic if you've got the room, speakers, and musical tastes to suit 2wpc.

I am really not knocking the S.E.X. amp!! It's just kind of aiming low for speakers like that; they deserve top-shelf hardware.