The reason why receivers cant work for two channel music reproduction
Comments
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These AVRs will most likely give stellar sound. Of course, they cost more than the usual $399, and require an amp.
http://bryston.com/products/digital_audio/SP2.html
http://bryston.com/products/digital_audio/SP3.html
http://www.caryaudio.com/products/cinema/cinema12.html
Technically those aren't AVRs, they are pre/pros.
But honestly I think it's silly to suggest that an integrated (AVR, stereo, whatever) can't be as good as separates simply by the fact that it's integrated. I could take my Outlaw 990 out of its chassis, take my Adcom GFA-6000 out of its chassis, throw them both in a custom chassis and blam, AVR. Of course then we'd be talking about a super-heavy >$1000 AVR. But those do exist.
Personally I prefer to buy separates, and I am kind of puzzled by the trend of taking made-in-China consumer brand AVRs and using them as pre/pros. Maybe that's what the OP meant. But all blanket statements can be proven false (irony intended).
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII -
Nelson Pass says his new AVR will be better than any separates when it comes to music reproduction.
DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
Personally I prefer to buy separates, and I am kind of puzzled by the trend of taking made-in-China consumer brand AVRs and using them as pre/pros. Maybe that's what the OP meant. But all blanket statements can be proven false (irony intended).
Because it's a helluva lot cheaper for a lot of guys to use a mediocre AVR instead of a dedicated pre/pro. I would do the exact same thing for a home theater, but it wouldn't pass for a second for my 2-channel listening and that's what this entire thread is supposed to be about.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Nelson Pass says his new AVR will be better than any separates when it comes to music reproduction.
Nice try Doug! Be careful some the people in this thread will believe you. They don't have enough sense to know you're kidding.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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Nice try Doug! Be careful some the people in this thread will believe you. They don't have enough sense to know you're kidding.
H9
I just posted it on the internet, so now it has to be true!DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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Those aren't exactly comparable to a VSX-23. Not even in price. Not even close.
I understood what VR3 meant and understand from first hand experience at some of the aspects he experienced. That's not to say that you can't get a better offering for 2-channel enjoyment from an AVR, but did I notice and applaud the change when I went from my AVR as a pre/pro to a dedicated pre-amp? Yes. The Pioneer still sounds better then many other contenders for the price. Now that I've experienced what I have now, I'm hooked.
What a ridiculous thread this turned out to be.
Does it matter if they are comparable in price? No. Are they AVRs? yes. And that is all that matters. VR3 said that "receivers cant work for two channel music reproduction." not "MY receiver cant work for two channel music reproduction." You're trying to impart hidden meaning into his post that is simply not there. Furthermore, when Tony suggested, reasonably, that better receivers would yield a better result, H9 categorically said that that was not the case. I think you have lost sight of what the argument is here.
I'm glad you enjoy your new gear, but as stated in this thread, there is no reason to inappropriately disparage a category of very capable and useful devices wholesale based on a careless premise.design is where science and art break even. -
Capable and useful devices aren't usually at the pinnacle of audio reproduction. Sounds like a jack of all trades piece that can do many things, but nothing particulary well.
Would you call a Ferrari a "capable and useful" car, or would that fit better for a mini van? IMO, if some described their car as "capable and useful" without disclosing what it was, Ferrari or even high performance sports car wouldn't even enter my mind.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I've never heard a receiver that did the whole "outside the speaker's boundaries" soundstage and imaging...with non-SDA's. Even with my current Marantz pre-pro, the soundstage is flat in comparison to the W4S gear I have here."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Bottom line here is we all have different expectations of performance and what we are willing to put up with. That makes all our experiences, perspectives and expectations wildly different. What is acceptable to one is not acceptable to another and there is no amount of discussion that will make the two converge to agree. Plus AVR's don't have tubes.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I've never heard a receiver that did the whole "outside the speaker's boundaries" soundstage and imaging...with non-SDA's. Even with my current Marantz pre-pro, the soundstage is flat in comparison to the W4S gear I have here.
I'm thinking those that are arguing for AVR's to make good 2 ch pre's have never experienced what you are talking about. If they did, they wouldn't be arguing the point so diligently.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
FYI, all the same gear was used in the comparison, same source, amp, speakers, room, etc... The only changes were from the Marantz processor to a W4S DAC-2 and W4S STP pre."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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None the less now that I have a good 2chnl system (still in the break in and tweek stage), I have music I would rather listen on my AVR-HT system cause the recordings sound like a$$---(double edged sword)...Now the better recorded music shines as the 2chnl system brings out it brilliance.
For example trying to show off the new system to the wife, put in one of her favorites Adele 21, made me look like I blew my money on crap I was red in the face, now when we played some well recorded Jazz, Blues, and Black Sabbath, Steely, Pink Floyd and others it shined and blew us away.
Adele 21 and the Journey CD's that sounded like a$$ did much better on the AVR-HT system2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I'm thinking those that are arguing for AVR's to make good 2 ch pre's have never experienced what you are talking about. If they did, they wouldn't be arguing the point so diligently.
H9
No arguments, simply opinion based on 1st hand listening. I never had or heard any W4S gear so I can't comment there. However having had a Conrad Johnson PV14L tube pre along with a Krell KAV-250p SS pre both with HT bypass that I would consider a fair forray into the separates world. Neither one was up to the task of replacing my NAD AVR. I simply can't get over how well the NAD performs as a pre in it's 2 channel format. I know you guys find that hard to believe but not from where I'm sitting. Nothing like a good discussion though."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
As far as AVRs go for great 2 channel performance, I would direct your attention to my previous examples of the Sunfire Ultimate receivers, as well as the B&K 707, and the Pio Elite sc-57.
I've got an SC-37, a seemingly highly rated AVR, in my dedicated HT rig. For S&G I tried it for 2 channel music. I will not bother to try it for that purpose again.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
All i know is no matter what the setup my 8 tracks always sound better on the separates.Never on the avr.Main Rig-Realistic AM/FM Record player 8 track boasting 4 WPC
Backup Rig-2 CH-Rogue Audio Zeus w/Factory Special Dark Mods,Joule-Electra 300ME Platinum Preamp,OPPO-105 w/Modwright Tube Mod, Auralic Aries G2.1,Polk 2.3TL,3.1TL's,Dreadnought,RTA-15TL's,1C's All Fully Modded,2xRTA-12c's ,Benchmark DAC3 HGC,Synology NAS,VPI Scout w/Dynavector DV-20XH and Rogue Audio Ares Phono Preamp,Sony PCM-R500 DAT,HHB-850 Pro CDR,Tascam CC-222SLMKII Cassette/CDR,MIT S3.3 Shotgun Cables,Shunyata Hyra-8,Shunyata and Triode Labs Power Cords
I’M OFFENDED!!!! -
Winner, winner....chicken dinner!
So why then, have you elected to make Numerous posts herein ? Hmmmm???? I swear, the wind you produce could power several hi-end rigs !!!!
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For my money, one should refrain from "fan-boying", or, condemning pieces, or combinations thereof, without personally having heard them! Sorta like evaluating sound from printed specs............ don't really work worth squat.
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Is that proof it doesn't exist?I've never heard a receiver that did the whole "outside the speaker's boundaries" soundstage and imaging...with non-SDA's.design is where science and art break even. -
For my money, one should refrain from "fan-boying", or, condemning pieces, or combinations thereof, without personally having heard them! Sorta like evaluating sound from printed specs............ don't really work worth squat.
Right, and I'm sure you wouldn't have an inkling of what the differences are between a Chevy Cruise and Ferrari 355 without first driving them extensively. Makes perfect sense to me :rolleyes:
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Simply not the case. I'm well acquainted with the illusion and achieve it on my non-SDA stereo rig, as well as my non-SDA HT rig run off of a receiver. Considering the number of models of SDAs I've had I would say that I am acutely aware of what he is talking about and yet I still standby my position.I'm thinking those that are arguing for AVR's to make good 2 ch pre's have never experienced what you are talking about. If they did, they wouldn't be arguing the point so diligently.
H9
As I stated earlier, not experiencing is not proof of somethings nonexistence, only proof that you haven't yet experienced it. I haven't ever witnessed a pickup truck beat a coupe in a 1/4mile race, but that isn't proof that it isn't possible.design is where science and art break even. -
Right, and I'm sure you wouldn't have an inkling of what the differences are between a Chevy Cruise and Ferrari 355 without first driving them extensively. Makes perfect sense to me :rolleyes:
H9
So you don't think a person should hear equipment before purchasing it? One shouldn't "rely on one's ears?" I feel like that runs contrary to many arguments you've made.design is where science and art break even. -
I've got an SC-37, a seemingly highly rated AVR, in my dedicated HT rig. For S&G I tried it for 2 channel music. I will not bother to try it for that purpose again.
Are you saying that because you tried the SC-37 and did not like it for 2 ch, that the 3 I mentioned couldn't perform any better?design is where science and art break even. -
The SC-37 and 57 are basically the same.....surely, you knew that. I've heard the Sunfire...yeah, not stellar. I have not heard that B&K to the best of my knowledge.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Not a big fan of that Sunfire either. I think the Pioneer does a better job than the TGR's do. That said, I agree with those that say an AVR used as a pre can do a nice job, and for many that will be just fine.
For serious two channel however, a good two channel pre is the best way to go.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Are you saying that because you tried the SC-37 and did not like it for 2 ch, that the 3 I mentioned couldn't perform any better?
They "might" perform better then the SC-37 (I have my doubts) but I since I haven't had my ears on them I won't say but I would bet my Adcom GFP-750' W4S STP, and my Dared pre's will smoke them hands down, I wouldn't even spend my money on a receiver for two channel listening as I know there is much better out there..
And I will state this is my opinion and what I choose to do, IMO receivers leave me wanting more for listening to music but I spoiled my self in what I like to hear..
If it works for you great as that's all that matters.. -
Maybe but....I don't crap on either one without the experience you seem to be so high on holding up as a basis for making statements about things, cable discussions being a prime example. Why don't/won't you walk it like you talk it ?Right, and I'm sure you wouldn't have an inkling of what the differences are between a Chevy Cruise and Ferrari 355 without first driving them extensively. Makes perfect sense to me :rolleyes:
H9(incessantly I might add ):cheesygrin:
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I don't need to see Rosanne Barr naked to know that I would rather play with Halle Berry. Sometimes the best experience out there is to trust your own judgenet on things that are so obvious, rather than waste time on the crap that doesn't matter.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I've got an SC-37, a seemingly highly rated AVR, in my dedicated HT rig. For S&G I tried it for 2 channel music. I will not bother to try it for that purpose again.
And was that SC-37 hooked up to your RTI a7's? If so that was your problem.
