Speechless....

DMara

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone pointed out the 10 ton elephant in the middle of the room. The anger toward illegal immigrants is misplaced. Get rid of the people hiring them and the illegals won't come.



I'm curious to know if there was significant public outrage, boycotting of Mr. Perry's business, and stiff government fines due to his shameful support of illegal immigration?

---

People can **** all they want, but the solution to the illegal immigration problem, like the illegal drug problem, lies squarely at home:

1. If you want desperate people to stop risking their lives by illegally coming across the border, STOP HIRING THEM and/or stop supporting people and businesses that do.

2. If you want desperate criminals to stop flooding the country with illegal drugs, severely diminish (you can never eliminate it) the demand and the thugs will seek customers elsewhere.

I agree totally

nooshinjohn

cnh wrote: »

Where is this coming from??? Don't see anything above that warrants it. What's with politics on this site that make them so incendiary so "easily" and so "quickly". Are we so frustrated at the insignificance in our lives that we need to act out in a space where our beliefs have almost NO impact on society outside? What is this "rage against the machine"?

And then caught nudging some other guy's foot in a stall.

George's quote was a reference to a Repub congressman from Montana that got busted in Minneapolis International Airport soliciting sex from a man in the airport bathroom. My retort had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with being insulted by his reference and by the fact that he would rather my possible(long shot) political ambitions be destroyed by scandal. I have no ill will towards George, but I will be damned if I will allow him to take cheap shots like that and not stand my ground.

...and that's all I gotta say 'bout that.

mrbigbluelight

At least Mr. Grand didn't accuse you of eating Bees.

.... you don't eat bees, do you ? That'd be bad.

Face

That was great advice from George, I don't see anything wrong with it. :cheesygrin:

BlueFox

While George's comment was not directed at me, I thought he was making a joke. In politics you need thick skin, or you will not last through the election campaign, let alone get elected.

BlueFox

Interesting bug in this new CP forum software. The word 'thick' occurs twice, yet it was only typed once, and the 'edit post' option only shows one instance.

nooshinjohn

When it comes to me George doesn't make jokes. And I agree about thick skin, but I have also learned from studying our founders that a man must defend his honor and integrity.

BeefJerky

DarqueKnight wrote: »

And who, exactly, is perpetuating the "madness" of illegal immigration? Aren't they being welcomed and hired by American citizens who value cheap labor above secure borders?

The real issue here is that many people in this county are addicted to cheap, "under the table" labor and they are going to get it one way or another.

So, might makes right? If the Mexicans were coming over the border and acquiring territory through military conquest rather than through a willingness to supply cheap labor, you would respect that? If that is true, then the immigration issue may become an easier pill to swallow once the well-armed, well-trained, well-financed drug gangs move north of the border.

Hmmmmm....post #61. I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone pointed out the 10 ton elephant in the middle of the room. The anger toward illegal immigrants is misplaced. Get rid of the people hiring them and the illegals won't come.

I'm curious to know if there was significant public outrage, boycotting of Mr. Perry's business, and stiff government fines due to his shameful support of illegal immigration?

---

People can **** all they want, but the solution to the illegal immigration problem, like the illegal drug problem, lies squarely at home:

1. If you want desperate people to stop risking their lives by illegally coming across the border, STOP HIRING THEM and/or stop supporting people and businesses that do.

2. If you want desperate criminals to stop flooding the country with illegal drugs, severely diminish (you can never eliminate it) the demand and the thugs will seek customers elsewhere.

I agree 100% with this post. Well said!

BlueFox wrote: »

While George's comment was not directed at me, I thought he was making a joke. In politics you need thick skin, or you will not last through the election campaign, let alone get elected.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

When it comes to me George doesn't make jokes. And I agree about thick skin, but I have also learned from studying our founders that a man must defend his honor and integrity.

I agree with BlueFox. Besides, it's only an insult if you let it be.

gdb

Mexico's real beef, as I see it, should be with the nation of Spain. Conquest/Conquistadors was/were brought from another continent,entirely! Too bad they don't have a land bridge there. Illegals would have an easier time communicating there too, they all speak Spanish ! Kinky Friedman has a workable plan for border "control" !
<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JucxOSWwzmA&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Kinky and his Texas Jewboys.....

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/n__tAHR5ErM&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

George Grand

John the Fool,

XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOX

George

tonyb

DarqueKnight wrote: »

And who, exactly, is perpetuating the "madness" of illegal immigration? Aren't they being welcomed and hired by American citizens who value cheap labor above secure borders?



The real issue here is that many people in this county are addicted to cheap, "under the table" labor and they are going to get it one way or another.



So, might makes right? If the Mexicans were coming over the border and acquiring territory through military conquest rather than through a willingness to supply cheap labor, you would respect that? If that is true, then the immigration issue may become an easier pill to swallow once the well-armed, well-trained, well-financed drug gangs move north of the border.



Hmmmmm....post #61. I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone pointed out the 10 ton elephant in the middle of the room. The anger toward illegal immigrants is misplaced. Get rid of the people hiring them and the illegals won't come.



I'm curious to know if there was significant public outrage, boycotting of Mr. Perry's business, and stiff government fines due to his shameful support of illegal immigration?

---

People can **** all they want, but the solution to the illegal immigration problem, like the illegal drug problem, lies squarely at home:

1. If you want desperate people to stop risking their lives by illegally coming across the border, STOP HIRING THEM and/or stop supporting people and businesses that do.

2. If you want desperate criminals to stop flooding the country with illegal drugs, severely diminish (you can never eliminate it) the demand and the thugs will seek customers elsewhere.

All good points, but I feel the problem is more so a combination of things. Without a strict immigration policy that is enforced across the board, everything else that follows will be useless. Lets identify who exactly is addicted to cheap labor. Farmers....yep, Rich people needing services....yep, buisnesses needing cheap labor.....yep, citizens who enjoy cheap produce, cheap lawn care, and who turn a blind eye in exchange for low prices on anything connected with cheap labor...yep. No question we are addicted to cheap labor, as long we ourselves do not fall into that catagory.....hypocritical ? You betcha.

But....does that mean by enforcing immigration laws, will cheap labor go away ? Hardly.
We like our cake and eat it too don't we. If an illegal was suddenly made legal by some magic wand, would his pay increase ? Would that cost a farmer more ? Would your lawn care service suddenly double ? No....cheap labor will still be what it is. There has to be a path to become legal, while at the same time enforcing border security. You also have to go after the buinesses that keep hiring illegals. Everything has to work in conjunction with everything else or you get a hodge podge of laws that mean diddly squat and just keep money in lawyers pockets as well as politicians. One can surely argue that if an illegal was suddenly made legal and not have to hide in the shadows, he/she will want to better themselves and maybe get some education and move to a better paying job.
Well, color me confused because I thought thats what we as a country were all about...no ? Bettering ourselves, raising our lifestyle, our personal finances, our families. That doesn't happen overnight however and low paying jobs are just a stepping stone to a better one and there will always be someone willing to take a low paying job when others move on. Look at the fast food industry in this country as an example.

I'm not angry at those who want to come here. I'm angry at our government who turns a blind eye to letting only the chosen ones come here illegally, everyone else has to go by the process in place. I'm angry at those who pick and choose which laws to enforce, and get away with it. I'm angry at paying for freebies for illegals while I get the shaft at every turn because I'm legal. I'm angry at those buisnesses that can just buy laws that suit their needs and at those that let them. I'm angry at those who give preference to an illegal over a legal citizen, regardless of race. So yeah, I'm more angry at us as a nation, and those in charge rather than the illegal themselves. You have to have a variety of areas firing on all cyllinders to be effective when it comes to immigration and that starts from the top down.

DarqueKnight

tonyb wrote: »

There has to be a path to become legal, while at the same time enforcing border security.

There are many paths to legal immigration, including "guest worker" visa programs such as the H-1B, L-1 and H-2A. Such guest worker visa programs are unattractive to large scale employers of illegal immigrants because guest workers are accorded certain employee rights and everything must be documented with regard to wages, taxes, working conditions, etc. So much paperwork. So much time and effort. It is easy to see how official guest worker programs would be a significant hindrance to someone wanting to quickly staff a sweatshop operation.

One important fact that many people don't seem to realize is that the vast majority of illegals have no desire to become U.S. citizens. They are here strictly for the money and other associated economic benefits (health care, education for their children, etc.). Therefore, on one hand we have unscrupulous, unpatriotic, unethical business people who support illegal immigration because of the short term economic advantages. They are looking to make a quick and easy buck. On the other hand, we have desperate, unpatriotic illegals who are also looking to make a quick and easy buck. Some would call that a match made in heaven. I call it a disaster waiting to happen.

It does not make sense, in the context of national security, to have a large and growing segment of the population that is undocumented and that has allegiance to a foreign nation. Furthermore, the children of illegals born here are American citizens who will begin exerting political influence once their numbers are sufficient.

nooshinjohn

DarqueKnight wrote: »

It does not make sense, in the context of national security, to have a large and growing segment of the population that is undocumented and that has allegiance to a foreign nation. Furthermore, the children of illegals born here are American citizens who will begin exerting political influence once their numbers are sufficient.

To look at this another way, we are being inflicted by a death of a thousand cuts, as we are being taken over from within by an invasionary force that has no desire to become a part of the American way of life. The only way a Sovereign Nation can respond when dealing with such a threat is to expel the invaders from our soil, and secure our position sufficiently so as to ensure such a threat cannot occur again. Further, any willing allies and supporters should be charged with treason and punished accordingly.

It is also mindful to remember that the constitution applies to a CITIZEN of the United States, and ILLEGALS are not citizens. South of the border, they are quick to remind you of that fact should you try to become a member of their country.

But that is not how we view things here in this country anymore. In the late 1800's and early 1900's, a disease took hold in American thought called Progressivism...

please jump to two minutes in.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L8lwg-NMWjE&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I can find thousands of quotes and links, but the scariest part of all is that today, our country and it's leaders have fufilled ALL of the grand designs of these nutjobs. They used our inherenet kindness and compassion as a weapon to undermine our principles.

The legendary Paul Harvey saw this back in 1965...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VatjpiaYqPM&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sadly, nobody listened.

Polkersince85

Locally, a home builder was charged federally with money laundering and harboring illegals. He, his wife and workers are charged. He will likely get 3-10 in the federal pin and deported to his home country. He also has his $1.7 million home, cash and other property confiscated to be sold. That's the way to stop this invasion.

Face

"Prejudices are what fools use for reason"
Voltaire

"What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly - that is the first law of nature"
Voltaire

"Superstition is to religion what astrology is to astronomy the mad daughter of a wise mother. These daughters have too long dominated the earth."
Voltaire

headrott

DarqueKnight wrote: »

There are many paths to legal immigration, including "guest worker" visa programs such as the H-1B, L-1 and H-2A. Such guest worker visa programs are unattractive to large scale employers of illegal immigrants because guest workers are accorded certain employee rights and everything must be documented with regard to wages, taxes, working conditions, etc. So much paperwork. So much time and effort. It is easy to see how official guest worker programs would be a significant hindrance to someone wanting to quickly staff a sweatshop operation.

One important fact that many people don't seem to realize is that the vast majority of illegals have no desire to become U.S. citizens. They are here strictly for the money and other associated economic benefits (health care, education for their children, etc.). Therefore, on one hand we have unscrupulous, unpatriotic, unethical business people who support illegal immigration because of the short term economic advantages. They are looking to make a quick and easy buck. On the other hand, we have desperate, unpatriotic illegals who are also looking to make a quick and easy buck. Some would call that a match made in heaven. I call it a disaster waiting to happen.

It does not make sense, in the context of national security, to have a large and growing segment of the population that is undocumented and that has allegiance to a foreign nation. Furthermore, the children of illegals born here are American citizens who will begin exerting political influence once their numbers are sufficient.

This is the best post in the entire thread.

Greg

Edit: The Paul Harvey recording is phenominal.

DarqueKnight

nooshinjohn wrote: »

To look at this another way, we are being inflicted by a death of a thousand cuts, as we are being taken over from within by an invasionary force that has no desire to become a part of the American way of life.

Illegal immigration is only a symptom of a more widespread and insidious disease called GREED. Illegal immigrants cannot in any logical and rational manner be considered an invasionary force. Invaders are unwanted and unwelcomed. The terms "unwelcomed" and "unwanted" certainly do not apply to the illegals coming from south of the border. Have you noticed all the public signs and telephone customer service options in Spanish? Have you noticed that these people are being accomodated with jobs, health care, education and other benefits. When has an invasionary force ever been afforded such accommodations?

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The only way a Sovereign Nation can respond when dealing with such a threat is to expel the invaders from our soil, and secure our position sufficiently so as to ensure such a threat cannot occur again. Further, any willing allies and supporters should be charged with treason and punished accordingly.

I know it's easy to point fingers and it is even easier to wish for quick, easy solutions to complex social issues, but it is brutally hypocritical to talk about expelling "invaders" when they are being welcomed with open arms and open wallets by U.S. citizens.

The real "invaders" are the U.S. citizens who facilitate and profit from illegal immigration. Get rid of them and the problem goes away. As long as there exists an insatiable demand for cheap, undocumented labor, there will be people willing to take considerable risk to satisfy that demand.

When I hear business people and homeowners say they can't function economically without cheap immigrant labor, I wonder how homes got built, how meals got served, how houses got cleaned, how yards got mowed and how children got nannied prior the the unprecedented wave of south-of-the-border illegal immigrant labor.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

It is also mindful to remember that the constitution applies to a CITIZEN of the United States, and ILLEGALS are not citizens.

It is also mindful to remember that, while illegals are not citizens, they are Human Beings who are being enticed to come here and work. As such, we should work to eradicate the system that profits from their economic exploit.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

South of the border, they are quick to remind you of that fact should you try to become a member of their country.

Yes, but the barbaric, inhospitible policies followed in other contries should not serve as a model for our national and personal behavior.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

But that is not how we view things here in this country anymore. In the late 1800's and early 1900's, a disease took hold in American thought called Progressivism...

No sir...progressivism is only a symptom of a more widespread and more insidious disease is called GREED and it took hold in many American's thoughts way back in the 1600's. This disease has manifested itself through many symptoms throughout the years: genocidal wars on the indigenous population, slavery, illegal immigration, the drug trade, financial system meltdowns, widespread political corruption, etc., etc.

At 4:21 in the first video is the following quote from Albert Einstein:

"The life of the individual only has meaning insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."

What would our world, our country, our personal lives be like if every political leader, every business leader, every individual adopted this principle? I tell you, such a personal philosophy does not leave much room for greed to grow and fester.

George Grand

DarqueKnight wrote: »

No sir...progressivism is only a symptom of a more widespread and more insidious disease is called GREED and it took hold in many American's thoughts way back in the 1600's. This disease has manifested itself through many symptoms throughout the years: genocidal wars on the indigenous population, slavery, illegal immigration, the drug trade, financial system meltdowns, widespread political corruption, etc., etc.

"The life of the individual only has meaning insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."

What would our world, our country, our personal lives be like if every political leader, every business leader, every individual adopted this principle? I tell you, such a personal philosophy does not leave much room for greed to grow and fester.

Damn, you're good Ray.

If you don't want some Mexican guy cutting your grass, get off the couch and do it yourself.

DarqueKnight

But...but...but...everybody ain't got time to cut their own grass, and raise their own kids, and cook their own food...and so forth...and so on.

Greed is good!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

Greed works!!!:

Famous Robber Barons

greyford1979

My parents brought our family here legally in 1983 from Romania when I was 3 years old. My dad worked 2 jobs and my mom worked many hours at night to make it here in the USA. They came here with very little money, did everything for themselves and raised 3 kids. Even though my brother is the only one that is a citizen, was born here, we have always embraced this as our home. It pisses me off sometimes knowing how hard it was for my parents to move us here legally, financially, physically, and mentally leaving family and friends behind not just across a border, but thousands of miles away across an ocean...we didn't just get to sneak in here. But yet they have more rights than I do, go figure. Just ranting, we will all be ruled by a super intelligent race of killer koalas someday anyways and will all have to bow down to our mighty overlords. :eek:

tonyb

Of coarse there are some who are only here for the coin and never want to become a citizen, those are the ones you have to dump back across the border.

If you recall, early on when europeans were immigrating here like ants, you went threw a process and questions were asked, medical history, if you brought with you a trade, a way to support yourself. You have to weed some and the only way to do that is by an interview process of sorts. We don't need guest worker programs with paper work up the wazoo, we have something better. It's called dual citizenship. Become a citizen, and you don't need all that other B.S.

Greed....well, it's not applicable to any one certain party, it applies to all. Greed has been around longer than language, since mankinds beginnings. It's more so a natural persuation of the human spirit. It can be good or evil, which way depends on each individual.

Einstein was a smart dude, but that quote stems from a moral standing, which is somewhat missing in today's society as evident by the rise of excessive greed. There's good and evil in everything no matter how beautifull it is. Thing is, when evil gathers together, and good sits on it's hands, evil triumphs. In my opinion anyway, evil has gathered in corporate america, in Washington D.C., at the United Nations, and at various heads of other countries around the globe. Where is good ? When good men do nothing, evil wins.

DarqueKnight

greyford1979 wrote: »

But yet they have more rights than I do....

I wonder where people get this from? About the only "right" an illegal immigrant has is the right to remain silent.

If their employer, or someone else, physically or sexually abuses them, who do they complain to?
If their employer does not pay them the agreed upon wage, who do they complain to?
If their employer forces them to work 1.5x or 2x the agreed upon hours in the workday, who do they complain to?
If someone defrauds them in the purchase of a car or other property, who do they complain to?

For all the irrational, hysterical ranting about "they have more rights than I do", I'd bet my entire retirement savings that not a single individual spewing this nonsense would trade a single day with these people who supposedly have more rights than you do.

greyford1979

Like I said I'm just ranting...it took my dad almost being beaten to death by Romanian guards to finally being allowed by the US government to move his family out of communist Romania. And believe me, speaking no English and coming here with very little money my parents endured many hardships as well.

chumlie

Really, let it die. There will be another cause deluxe that will find someone thats pissed. Enjoy the life you have. The money we spend on audio is crazy next to real problems. Ge a grip gents. Have a great day.

mrbigbluelight

I may have mentioned this before, but I used to have a boss that came here from a European country. This country was under Russian "influence" at the time, a fact that he didn't care for. So one evening he and a fellow soldier "deserted" by walking through a minefield and made their way to a refugee camp in London. He eventually made his way here, where he learned English while watching Sesame Street. He lived in a church, worked as a janitor and, long story short, eventually became a Professor, teaching computer science. He did, btw, jump through all the hoops to become a legal citizen.

He married. Like him, his wife is a very honorable person. Born here, always a U.S. citizen. Hard working. She worked for a very large nursery; a VERY large nursery and held a very responsible position.
This nursery employed a great number of undocumented workers. Not her choice, she did what she was told.
It was standard practice that if the undocumented workers got a little too vocal, then the Head Cheese would call INS. On himself.
Trouble-makers out, fresh batch of undocumented workers in.

Kind of a "Tale of Two Cities" in a way; best of cases, worst of cases.
One busted butt, did everything legally (except "deserting), and with help from the community, became an extremely productive citizen.
The other(s) busted butt, did nothing legally, and with no help from anyone, were used, misused, and tossed out when they became "worthless" (less profitable).

That's just my personal experience and one tale doesn't make a case. But I imagine that this has to occur a lot in areas with large populations of undocumented workers.

One of the "tricks" used by employers is to "withhold" taxes on the undocumented workers's wages. When they're busted by the INS, well .... shoot .... guess who hangs on to that money ?

greyford1979

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

he learned English while watching Sesame Street.

I learned English watching Scooby Doo To this day my dad still calls me Scooby lol.

mrbigbluelight

greyford1979 wrote: »

I learned English watching Scooby Doo To this day my dad still calls me Scooby lol.

Could be worse..... he could call you "Shaggy".

..... or "Velma". :eek: And not the movie "Velma" (Linda Cardellini .... HOT !) but the cartoon "Velma".

Actually, either one would probably be bad if your dad called you that. :redface:

And Chumlie, sth(heck)u. :cheesygrin:

(better through extra emoticons in) :cheesygrin::cheesygrin::cheesygrin:

SDA1C

Is this still going on? Can no one see the work force to the south and the coin from the north? is the US government fu...n blind? if handled properly we could all make out like bandits. Buuuut Nooo! no pipe line...no freeway. Just BS like NAFTA that confuses and screws everyone more than 3 miles from Washington DC> I hold the title US Marine as well and I say this, Ain't no harder working race of folk than Mexicans. Take that to the bank.

Impound his car and pay the border patrol salaries with the money ? Yes. Get into a heated argument about something so stupid? .....you figure it out.

nooshinjohn

DarqueKnight wrote: »

It is also mindful to remember that, while illegals are not citizens, they are Human Beings who are being enticed to come here and work. As such, we should work to eradicate the system that profits from their economic exploit.

Most of the people in power today agree with you that we should "iradicate the system", which in this case is capitolism, and the Constitution that supports it. Rather than getting rid of what built this country, how about we go back to being a nation of sovereign individuals, free to persue our dreams rather than being a nation of pussies that are looking to big gov for the next freebie. I agree with George about cutting your own lawn.

I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it, but I read a report that the police impounded some guy's lawnmower because his 14 year old kid was out cutting the grass without proper OSHA approved safety gear! The time has come friends for self reliance, self respect and self sacrifice to come back into vogue. The only way to fix this country is to put your shoulder to the wheel and bravely do what others will not. Let your children see you do the worst possible job with dignity and pride, not for what you get paid, but because it must be done.

Stand for honor and virtue, at home, in your community and at the ballot box. We must get back to being a nation of laws, and have the expectation that they be followed. If they are not then we must stand up and DEMAND they be followed. Burying your head in the sand and hoping for the best isn't working any more.

DarqueKnight

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Most of the people in power today agree with you that we should "iradicate the system", which in this case is capitolism, and the Constitution that supports it.

I did not explicitly state, or even imply, that capitalism should be eradicated. If you had carefully read my statements in this thread, you would know that the system I advocated eradicating is the system that turns a blind eye to businesses and individuals who hire illegal immigrants. Capitalism, like any economic tool, can be misused and abused.

I cannot see where most of the people in power would advocate the eradication of capitalism since their election campaigns are largely funded from money earned through capitalistic enterprise.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

...how about we go back to being a nation of sovereign individuals, free to persue our dreams rather than being a nation of pussies that are looking to big gov for the next freebie.

Maybe things are different where you live. Where I live, the freeways are jammed every morning with people going to work or to school, rather than staying at home waiting on a gov't handout. What credible research is available that supports your position that a majority, or even a plurality, of Americans are looking to big government for the next freebie?

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I agree with George about cutting your own lawn.

Actually, I'm one of the few people in my neighborhood who does cut their own lawn.

However, I believe that George's comment about lawn cutting was not aimed at me. I believe he was making a general statement and allusion that if Americans are so outraged about Mexicans working in this country, they should do the work themselves or hire other Americans or legal immigrants. It ties in with my position that the illegal immigration problem cannot be solved, as you advocate, by sending all the illegals back home, but rather by taking away the financial incentives for people to hire them. They wouldn't be in this country if people weren't hiring them.