Quality banana plugs and speaker wire?

Syndil

Not surprised you can't even be bothered to check a dictionary before posting what you think you know. Definitely suits your personality. But if you do ever get around to it, you'll find that "excel" is spelled with one L, not two.

And you'll have to explain to me why you believe you can't audition cables.

F1nut

You know I didn't read your quote of mine (why should I), just the text in which you wrote,

as your "absolute certainty" is absolutely incorrect.

Based on your quoting my "absolute certainty" it would indicate that you were implying I misspelled either of those two words. Obviously, that is not the case.

Yeah, I missed that double L. Sue me.

I never said one can't audition cables. What I want to know is why you haven't since you stated that is the only way to judge an audio related product.

Syndil

Again with the assumptions... What makes you assume I haven't?

F1nut

That fact was established long ago. However, if you're changing your tune go ahead and tell us what cables you've tried in your system.

Syndil

F1nut wrote: »

That fact was established long ago. However, if you're changing your tune go ahead and tell us what cables you've tried in your system.

The "fact" was never established, as it is not true. You jump to conclusions you want to believe, that's your entire problem.

As I've already stated, I avoid subjective discussions. I jumped in this one to clue jviss in to what the score was. Mission accomplished. I have no interest in discussing matters of faith.

BlueFox

jviss, there is nothing wrong with 12 gauge twisted copper, and speakers costing less than $1000. I suspect everyone has been there at one point or another. However, to assume and/or imply that the sound cannot get any better with this setup is not the sign of a "critical thinker". It is the sign of an individual with no experience in the subject, yet that same lack of experience appears to some as qualifications to speak on a subject.

If you do not want to buy better gear, and try to get every last ounce of sound out of it via cable upgrades, vibration isolation, and other tweaks, then that is fine. However, others do, and that does not mean they are hallucinating the end result. Like it or not, with better gear, cables can improve/degrade the sound. Assuming your hearing is normal. There is nothing subjective to it.

F1nut

Syndil wrote: »

The "fact" was never established, as it is not true. You jump to conclusions you want to believe, that's your entire problem.

As I've already stated, I avoid subjective discussions. I jumped in this one to clue jviss in to what the score was. Mission accomplished. I have no interest in discussing matters of faith.

Thanks for proving my point, I'm smiling and nodding.

tonyb

Syndil wrote: »

I avoid subjective discussions..

Considering this whole hobby of audio is subjective.....well, maybe you should avoid it then.

You have to "clue" people in on the score ? Really ?

Syndil

Not that anyone has noticed, but I indeed avoid the majority of the discussions here and usually only chime in when I have something factual to add to the discussion. Don't need to talk about it to enjoy it.

And yes, I felt an obligation to clue jviss in to what was going on before he got branded a troll and the pitchforks came out. When a rational person first encounters so-called audiophiles, the experience can be overwhelming and exasperating.

decal

This is freakin' hilarious, thanks for the laughs everyone !!!!!!!! :cheesygrin:

quadzilla

Syndil wrote: »

The "fact" was never established, as it is not true. You jump to conclusions you want to believe, that's your entire problem.

As I've already stated, I avoid subjective discussions. I jumped in this one to clue jviss in to what the score was. Mission accomplished. I have no interest in discussing matters of faith.

lolwut? Faith? You are daft, indeed, in this line of thinking. I think you accuse us of faith when, in fact, you're taking it on faith that all wires are the same because you "know" that must be the case. Or else you're unable, unwilling, or lack a system capable of the (rather minimal) needed resolution to experience any difference.

Just as a goof, I put together some not too spendy 5 ft bi-wire litz cables (15.5 ga. cardas chassis wire, 80 bucks for 40 ft) to replace my Jantzen bi-wires (non-litz), and while the "sound" was basically the same, I do hear new details, such as being able to tell the difference when two sonically similar instruments are playing. I actually hear them both, instead of one smeared together instrument. I also noticed new things like when I was listening to a recording of a chamber orchestra playing a piece for oboe and harp, and realized the clicking I was hearing wasn't dirt or scratches on the album as I'd always thought, but the clicking of the oboe keys. That's what cables can do. They cannot magically transform a so-so system into audio nirvana.

pitdogg2

Ever wonder why Jviss signed up in the Polk forum just for this thread??? I smell a tossed out rat!! Or as someone else put it "my spidey senses are tingling"

jviss

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Ever wonder why Jviss signed up in the Polk forum just for this thread??? I smell a tossed out rat!! Or as someone else put it "my spidey senses are tingling"

No, that's not so. I've commented on other threads, too, and started one. I found this forum 'cause I bought a pair of Monitor 70's.
I honestly wish this thread never happened, but what can you do. I offered the idea of 12 ga. zip cord to the OP, and then the fun began.

jviss

quadzilla wrote: »

lolwut? Faith? You are daft, indeed, in this line of thinking. I think you accuse us of faith when, in fact, you're taking it on faith that all wires are the same because you "know" that must be the case. Or else you're unable, unwilling, or lack a system capable of the (rather minimal) needed resolution to experience any difference.

Just as a goof, I put together some not too spendy 5 ft bi-wire litz cables (15.5 ga. cardas chassis wire, 80 bucks for 40 ft) to replace my Jantzen bi-wires (non-litz), and while the "sound" was basically the same, I do hear new details, such as being able to tell the difference when two sonically similar instruments are playing. I actually hear them both, instead of one smeared together instrument. I also noticed new things like when I was listening to a recording of a chamber orchestra playing a piece for oboe and harp, and realized the clicking I was hearing wasn't dirt or scratches on the album as I'd always thought, but the clicking of the oboe keys. That's what cables can do. They cannot magically transform a so-so system into audio nirvana.

What's the rest of your system like? I'd be curious about the source material - I guess it's an LP in this case?

tonyb

jviss wrote: »

No, that's not so. I've commented on other threads, too, and started one. I found this forum 'cause I bought a pair of Monitor 70's.
I honestly wish this thread never happened, but what can you do. I offered the idea of 12 ga. zip cord to the OP, and then the fun began.

Well, you expanded alittle more than just zip cord, read your post...#28 I believe.

There's different levels in this hobby, and not everyone can play on the same level, but that doesn't mean good sound can't be had at every level. I think about 90% of us have used zip cord at one point or another in our audio journey which is why we usually never recommend it, just too many options out there that are better. You can even make your own cables that would better zip cord and some members here do just that with some pretty good results.

Quad makes a good point.....cables don't magically transform your system into some ubber hi-fi machine. They basically offer different windows into the sound. Tone, soundstage, clarity and detail, at different degrees with different strengths and weaknesses. I liken it to 33 flavors. My only suggestion to you Sir, is to put all things aside and just try different things, gain alittle experience under your belt, see what others are doing, maybe have a path forward in your audio journey. Not everything costs mega bucks for good sound to be had. Heck, I could be happy with some Polk monitor 7b's and an old Marantz receiver and call it a day too but like everything, things change.

jviss

tonyb wrote: »

Well, you expanded alittle more than just zip cord, read your post...#28 I believe.

There's different levels in this hobby, and not everyone can play on the same level, but that doesn't mean good sound can't be had at every level. I think about 90% of us have used zip cord at one point or another in our audio journey which is why we usually never recommend it, just too many options out there that are better. You can even make your own cables that would better zip cord and some members here do just that with some pretty good results.

Quad makes a good point.....cables don't magically transform your system into some ubber hi-fi machine. They basically offer different windows into the sound. Tone, soundstage, clarity and detail, at different degrees with different strengths and weaknesses. I liken it to 33 flavors. My only suggestion to you Sir, is to put all things aside and just try different things, gain alittle experience under your belt, see what others are doing, maybe have a path forward in your audio journey. Not everything costs mega bucks for good sound to be had. Heck, I could be happy with some Polk monitor 7b's and an old Marantz receiver and call it a day too but like everything, things change.

Thanks for the note. I confess all this talk about cables has made me curious, and interested in hearing them, and also doing some research on them. If you have any references to theory, research, design principles, etc., I'd be very interested in reading up.

ratster

jviss wrote: »

Thanks for the note. I confess all this talk about cables has made me curious, and interested in hearing them, and also doing some research on them. If you have any references to theory, research, design principles, etc., I'd be very interested in reading up.

Easiest way to solve your curiosity is to pick up some used cables.Don't like them?Resell them and try a different brand.I think you will pleasantly surprised. I was.Good Luck and happy listening.

Toolfan66

tonyb wrote: »

Well, you expanded alittle more than just zip cord, read your post...#28 I believe.

There's different levels in this hobby, and not everyone can play on the same level, but that doesn't mean good sound can't be had at every level. I think about 90% of us have used zip cord at one point or another in our audio journey which is why we usually never recommend it, just too many options out there that are better. You can even make your own cables that would better zip cord and some members here do just that with some pretty good results.

Quad makes a good point.....cables don't magically transform your system into some ubber hi-fi machine. They basically offer different windows into the sound. Tone, soundstage, clarity and detail, at different degrees with different strengths and weaknesses. I liken it to 33 flavors. My only suggestion to you Sir, is to put all things aside and just try different things, gain alittle experience under your belt, see what others are doing, maybe have a path forward in your audio journey. Not everything costs mega bucks for good sound to be had. Heck, I could be happy with some Polk monitor 7b's and an old Marantz receiver and call it a day too but like everything, things change.

Very well said TB

sucks2beme

The subject of cables is a hot subject.
I have been told in other forums that any listening done that isn't a double blind isn't valid.
Why double blind? Is the guy swapping cables giving hand signals to the listener?
If you can't swap cables and hear a difference, move on.
If you can, pick a winner. I do hear a difference, and it isn't always $$$=better.
Note: my first upgrade was to Monster. That almost ended my cable testing.
Worthless stuff.

Systems

I have been told in other forums that any listening done that isn't a double blind isn't valid.
Why double blind? Is the guy swapping cables giving hand signals to the listener?

Its for people like me.
I'm 100% blind in both ears.

rebuy

I have experience with speaker wire. Let me just say I did have corrosion problems with my True Value Store wire that I bought for 4 dollars. :sad: It corroded on the inside, like some of you guy's hearts. :cheesygrin:

That being said the roll of RCA speaker wire I bought from Home Depot for $3.95 plus tax, made it $4.15, is performing better than the True Value wire.

So I can testify that better wire makes a difference.

Any questions, just refer them here as I am now a wire expert as I am not afraid to keep an open mind and use better wire in my system.

:razz:

quadzilla

jviss wrote: »

What's the rest of your system like? I'd be curious about the source material - I guess it's an LP in this case?

I run the following:

Empire 298 turntable modded to accept a Rega 250 tone arm, which has in turn been modded with a Rega 300 stainless steel arm stub and a heavyweight arm weight and wired with silver litz in both the arm and phono cable. A shelter 501 Mk II cartridge is affixed to that.

Pioneer Elite DV 79Ai CD/SACD/DVD player using the analog outputs.

Conrad Johnson PV-2a preamp.

DIY silver interconnects using small gauge wire.

Aural Thrills phono stage.

Aural Thrills 45 wpc push-pull KT-88 monoblocks.

Heavily modded Polk 2.3 TL speakers. Mods include resealing the cabinets, upgrading the crossovers with new boards, Deuland Cast resistors, Claritycap ESA capacitors, Cardas litz chassis wire for the harness, blackhole 5 anti resonance, cardas binding posts, damped midwoofers, and RDO-198 tweeters.

It's not a low-end system by any means, but it still cost less than the speaker cables linked to earlier. I think if I add it all up, If I add it all up, I think I've got around 8K in the entire system, including all the mods and upgrades.

Now, can you answer some of my questions? Let's start small. Do non-linear effects due to electrons crossing between conductors in a multstranded non-litz cable matter?

quadzilla

sucks2beme wrote: »

The subject of cables is a hot subject.
I have been told in other forums that any listening done that isn't a double blind isn't valid.
Why double blind? Is the guy swapping cables giving hand signals to the listener?

Because for some, anything that doesn't follow A/B/X testing isn't valid because someone told them only A/B/X testing counts, and they've never been able to get past that. While A/B/X may be valid for some things, you generally can't hear a lot of differences in the 30 seconds to a minute that these test are set up with. So these people engineer a test designed to fail to find differences between cables, then point to these tests to support their assertions. In other words, it's a self-confirming bias.

Talk to the people that design high-end audio gear. All of them agree that you start with measurements. But at some point, you just have to listen.

jviss

quadzilla wrote: »

Now, can you answer some of my questions? Let's start small. Do non-linear effects due to electrons crossing between conductors in a multstranded non-litz cable matter?

My intuition is that it doesn't matter; I would like to hear the argument that it does. I'd be interested to know what's nonlinear about the effect, too.

quadzilla

jviss wrote: »

My intuition is that it doesn't matter; I would like to hear the argument that it does. I'd be interested to know what's nonlinear about the effect, too.

So to make sure I'm clear here, your assertion is that non-linear effects in the audio chain don't matter? I pointed you to this link earlier, but you appear to have not bothered to read it, so I'll post it one more time. http://tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html. He isn't trying to sell you anything, and is, in fact, debunking a lot of the hokum claims of cable manufacturers. But he does understand why certain things do matter, and do have an effect on the accuracy of the audio signal reproduction.

Now, next question, since you state that non-linear effects don't matter, can I correctly assume that you believe that hysteresis effects due to dielectric absorption/discharge also don't matter? This is essentially also a non-linear effect.

Now, for both of these, please explain why non-linear effects are irrelevant to the accuracy of the audio signal reproduction. I've already explained why I think they are, at least in a very general way, in this thread. If you want to discuss it, then we can drill down deeper on what specifically suffers the most from non-linear effects.

jviss

quadzilla wrote: »

So to make sure I'm clear here, your assertion is that non-linear effects in the audio chain don't matter? I pointed you to this link earlier, but you appear to have not bothered to read it, so I'll post it one more time. http://tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html. He isn't trying to sell you anything, and is, in fact, debunking a lot of the hokum claims of cable manufacturers. But he does understand why certain things do matter, and do have an effect on the accuracy of the audio signal reproduction.

Now, next question, since you state that non-linear effects don't matter, can I correctly assume that you believe that hysteresis effects due to dielectric absorption/discharge also don't matter? This is essentially also a non-linear effect.

Now, for both of these, please explain why non-linear effects are irrelevant to the accuracy of the audio signal reproduction. I've already explained why I think they are, at least in a very general way, in this thread. If you want to discuss it, then we can drill down deeper on what specifically suffers the most from non-linear effects.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that nonlinear effects don't matter, I said that my intuition was that the "non-linear effects due to electrons crossing between conductors in a multstranded non-litz cable" didn't matter, and the context was regarding listening effects of loudspeakers.

quadzilla

jviss wrote: »

Please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that nonlinear effects don't matter, I said that my intuition was that the "non-linear effects due to electrons crossing between conductors in a multstranded non-litz cable" didn't matter, and the context was regarding listening effects of loudspeakers.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm trying to figure out what you think does and doesn't matter. So please answer the second question, and provide reasoning for both answers.

BlueFox

quadzilla wrote: »

Talk to the people that design high-end audio gear. All of them agree that you start with measurements. But at some point, you just have to listen.

And, listening is just another form of measurement. Obviously, there are sonic differences with different cables used with different gear. The issue is the science has not yet advanced far enough to be able to assign values to the nuances that result in different sounds.

sucks2beme

Keep in mind we've had people come here and tell us any properly designed amp sounds the same.
So at this point, I guess I've never heard a properly designed amp!
We are touchy on the subject because often the people that tell us cables don't matter proceed to
tell us a laundry list of stuff that shouldn't matter. Yet for me DACS/cables/amps/preamps all have their
own sound, and different combos either work well together or not. Don't worry about cables until
your gear gets better. AVR with a couple of Polk monitor 60's, stick with a good 12-14 ga
stranded copper and call it a day. Yes, we all at one time had that cheap stuff that turns green.

tonyb

It's pointless to post articles on the benefits of better cables, you will also find just as many claiming they don't matter. Which is why we say...grab some and hear for yourself. Mind you, not everyone hears the differences either....and thats cool too.

If you haven't noticed yet, we do have a MIT cable demo going, why not add your name to the list, cost you nothing to give them a whirl except maybe a few bucks to ship to the next in line.