Quality banana plugs and speaker wire?

jviss

F1nut wrote: »

You just killed any credibility you may have had.

And how is that? Explain to me how other speaker cables are superior to this 12AWG stranded copper. And I don't mean in terms of the marketing BS from expensive speaker cable purveyors, I mean in quantitative, electrical engineer, scientific terms.

F1nut

Gee I don't know, maybe you should try some cables that are actually designed for audio and find out for yourself.

tonyb

Actually, Jess beat me to it.

Myself and others would love to have that discussion, but first if you could enlighten us on any experience you have with different cables, that would narrow down the discussion.

If you have none, then your statements means about as much as me telling a carpenter whats the best tools for his trade.

jviss

I happen to be an electrical engineer, and have worked in the field for 30 years; I've done quite a bit of filter and transmission line research and design, and have five US patents. As far as qualifications to comment on audio frequency connections between amps and speakers are concerned, I believe I'm eminently qualified.

"Cables that are designed for audio" have, as their primary design criterion, the ability to separate people form their money.

There is no measurable, palpable, objective difference between 12 ga. zip cord and anything else for home theater speaker cables.

halo71

And we're off....juju, you back again?

jviss

By the way, I regret having responded to the ad hominem argument on this topic. I would be happy to discuss, or argue the merits of the situation, that is, why any parameter other than resistance is important to a good quality speaker connection. I've read all about the merits and 'sonic quality' of cryogenically treated, oxygen-free copper cable, super-deluxe banana plugs, braided conductors, and the like, and I reject all of the claims of sonic superiority for all of this nonsense. It is a scam, and a waste of consumers' money. Tons of research has been done on this topic, including the invention of the ABX method specifically for speaker cable, and in carefully controlled, true double-blind trials, no one has been able to hear a difference.

Check these links:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html

Toolfan66

quadzilla wrote: »

I just don't like them. At least on the systems I've tried them on, bare wire is best, and spades are a close second for detail, dynamics, all of it.

Please explain how spades can give you better detail and dynamics then bananas.:rolleyes: I'm not buyin it.. If one has good cables with good connections there will be no difference IMO.

jviss wrote: »

I guess there are junk plugs out there, and adequate ones. My only concern about brass or gold barrel plugs is that if you unplug them for some reason and they touch with the amplifier on, they will short the output. This will damage most amps. I bought the Legrand On-Q banana plugs at Lowes as they were on clearance for $10 per 5-pair pack. They are adequate. While they have two clamp set screws in the barrel, one to secure the insulation and the other to secure the conductor, with 12 gauge stranded I used both screws on the conductor. As long as you have a firm, low resistance connection that won't vibrate loose or corrode quickly, they will be fine; there will be absolutely no difference you can hear, no difference in detail, dynamics, or 'sonics' of any kind, regardless of how much you spend on plugs, or what purveyors of high-end interconnect claim. I concede there are better banana plugs out there, but the benefit realized for five or ten times the price is dubious. As an aesthetic element, for appearance and prestige, pride of ownership, sure.

I would like to know what gear your running? as a matter of fact I don't care so don't bother bring something to the table that one can learn from. At least I bought my wire from Walmart:eek:

Face wrote: »

Real copper costs much more than brass.

I have to keep the copper in the shop locked up till we are ready to run the job it might be for but even after we lock up the drop for scrap..

jviss wrote: »

In retrospect I'd like to moderate my comments regarding quality connectors and wire. First, on the wire, because that's the easier one, I think. One method of selecting appropriate cable is to determine an acceptable voltage drop for the interconnect system, expressed as a percentage of the amplifier output voltage; assign a fixed value for the interconnect components, i.e., plugs and jacks, and select a wire gauge that satisfies the requirement. For anything less than 250 Watts and 25', 12 AWG will do the job nicely. Quality, 2-conductor, 12AWG stranded copper "zip cord" is widely available for about $0.60/foot. I use the black outdoor low voltage wire available at Lowes, Home Depot, etc. It is nicely flexible and "blends" with any decor.

Banana plugs can vary dramatically in quality and price. Gold plating is not necessary, and can even cause problems in high humidity conditions in contact with tin (so called "purple plague" corrosion). Gold to gold is good, but one never knows, especially in un-branded, inexpensive connectors whether it really is gold, what purity, and how thick the plating is. Unless it's a brand-name connector you can't trust it. Mechanical details are important, too, for both ends: securing the wire, and the plug, mostly for on dimensions and contact force.

That said, a $1.00 tin or nickel plated plug with solder, screw, crimp or clamp wire connection will be fine, if you can find a reasonable example of such. To buy a brand-name plug you will have to spend a lot more, like $5 each, for example, Hosa BNA-050, under $5 w/ free shipping from Dale Pro Audio (I have no connection with either, no pun intended). Even then, I don't think Hosa spec's the gold type or thickness. I haven't had one in my hand, either, so don't know how much better or worse it is than the generics. So I now concede that yes, there may be a reasonable universe where $10 banana plugs are priced right, but it's probably not one I would live in.

It is worthwhile to do a little research and maybe even sample and test some samples. Mine, the Q-On plugs, seem O.K. I was tempted, though, with the set screw clamps, to try to find some small copper tubing that I could slip onto the 12 gauge stranded ends and then insert into the plugs, so the clamp screws would be crushing the tubing onto the stranded wire. I don't think tinning the ends is a good idea because it make the ends so much less malleable that the screws can't adequately squish the conductor.

In the old days we wrapped the twisted-up stranded copper wire around a tin plated screw or binding post, and that worked fine! You can still do it similarly with 5-way posts, and skip the plugs.

No thanks!!

F1nut wrote: »

Gee I don't know, maybe you should try some cables that are actually designed for audio and find out for yourself.

This!!!

F1nut

jviss wrote: »

I happen to be an electrical engineer, and have worked in the field for 30 years; I've done quite a bit of filter and transmission line research and design, and have five US patents. As far as qualifications to comment on audio frequency connections between amps and speakers are concerned, I believe I'm eminently qualified.

"Cables that are designed for audio" have, as their primary design criterion, the ability to separate people form their money.

There is no measurable, palpable, objective difference between 12 ga. zip cord and anything else for home theater speaker cables.

Yet another in a long line of EE's to post the same babble. One problem here is that you have not actually tried higher end audio cables in your system therefore negating any opinion you have on them. The other problem is thinking that gauge alone makes the cable.

jviss

F1nut wrote: »

Yet another in a long line of EE's to post the same babble. One problem here is that you have not actually tried higher end audio cables in your system therefore negating any opinion you have on them. The other problem is thinking that gauge alone makes the cable.

O.K., I'm open minded: please explain it to me. What makes cable specifically designed for audio different than anything else?

Toolfan66

jviss wrote: »

By the way, I regret having responded to the ad hominem argument on this topic. I would be happy to discuss, or argue the merits of the situation, that is, why any parameter other than resistance is important to a good quality speaker connection. I've read all about the merits and 'sonic quality' of cryogenically treated, oxygen-free copper cable, super-deluxe banana plugs, braided conductors, and the like, and I reject all of the claims of sonic superiority for all of this nonsense. It is a scam, and a waste of consumers' money. Tons of research has been done on this topic, including the invention of the ABX method specifically for speaker cable, and in carefully controlled, true double-blind trials, no one has been able to hear a difference.

Check these links:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html

No one has been able to hear a difference?? Wrong!! Then why have I? I have tried many types of cables and everyone has had their own signature sound so for you to come here and tell me "no one has been able to hear a difference" I'm here to tell you you are wrong!!

Since your so smart and all did you ever stop to think that maybe just maybe the gear being used during these tests was not the best for these tests and that might just be the reason you can't hear the difference?

Also have you ever purchased a set of let's say $1000 set of speaker cables? If the answer is no then you have nothing to stand on with your claim..

Toolfan66

jviss wrote: »

O.K., I'm open minded: please explain it to me. What makes cable specifically designed for audio different than anything else?

Since your so open minded open your wallet and step up..

tonyb

No offense Jviss, but we get "electrical engineers" all the time wanting to push their thoughts on cables. Though you may be well schooled on the electrical side of things, you seem less schooled on the merits of sound reproduction and what that entails.

We can discuss all day if you like about cables, build quality, the quality of the metal used, number of strands, copper, silver, brass, nickel, palladium, shielding, solid core, twisted strands or not, design, connectors and the quality of those, the value of clean power, oxidation, but these discussions if you care to look, have been had a billion times around here. You can search to your hearts content on the subject on this site and many others. When all is said in done though it comes down to one thing. Those that say cables don't matter, have zero experience with anything up the food chain.

pyrocyborg

Woah! I'm sorry to have created another topic on the subject... I guess we will never have a clear answer on speaker cable quality.

I just did a little experiment (sure, it was A-B test, no blind test), and I've seen no audible performance between bare wire and banana plugs on my monoprice cable. I've also tried my father's higher quality cables, and there again, no audible increase in performance except maybe a sighly warmer "tone". It wasn't better in any ways, just... different I guess.. I mean, as I didn't paid those, I didn't feel like I should hear anything better.

There again, it could be my terrible quality AV receiver limiting any benefits from higher quality cables.

inspiredsports

jviss wrote: »

. . . there is no measurable, palpable, objective difference between 12 ga. zip cord and anything else for home theater speaker cables . . .

And because we haven't invented the proper meausrement tools yet and are measuring the wrong thing, that's supposed to be proof all cables are the same ?????????

Sometimes I think people are a prisoner of their vocation.

F1nut

Here we have one company that has invented a proper measurement tool for power cables,

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD-indepth.html

And here we have another,

http://www.mitcables.com/reference-library/mit-cables-technical-whitepapers.html

Specifically speaker cables making reference to the typical 12 gauge zip cord,

http://www.mitcables.com/pdf/wp101.pdf

jviss

F1nut wrote: »

Here we have one company that has invented a proper measurement tool for power cables,

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD-indepth.html

And here we have another,

http://www.mitcables.com/reference-library/mit-cables-technical-whitepapers.html

Specifically speaker cables making reference to the typical 12 gauge zip cord,

http://www.mitcables.com/pdf/wp101.pdf

Having just read that MIT article (not to be confused with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, by the way), I can assure you that it is pure hokum. In the spectrum of interest, no reasonable length of any speaker cable is behaving as a transmission line, and the concept of impedance matching for the source, cable, and speaker does not apply. If this paper were to appear in a peer reviewed journal that would be another thing entirely. Even his made-up term "Random Reactive Noise, RRN," is nonsense. Just google the term, and see what you find; nothing in from any reputable engineering or scientific source. I would comment, though, that if were are real, important consideration, it wouldn't be properly defined as random, since it is highly correlated with the source.

Just for the record, no, I don't have a $1000 pair of speaker cables, nor will I, ever. I don't even had a $1000 speaker! You can all believe what you want, and I really don't mind. I would just like to point out that it's fallacious to attack me, in terms of attacks on my credentials, experience, or level of immersion in this particular hobby. What would be a good argument for expensive speaker cables are some hard data, scientific data, either in terms of legitimate clinical trials regarding a person's ability to hear a difference, or physical, scientific facts detailing how a special cable does what a conventional "wire" does not. Note the clinical trials have failed to support the special cables, and there is no legit scientific support for the special cables to be found.

I get a kick out of hobbyists who dismiss real scientists of engineers suggesting they "aren't schooled in the merits of sound reproduction and what that entails." How do they know? And why do they think they are more qualified?

tonyb

The only proper measuring tool needed is your ears.

If Jviss can provide the tool he uses to measure sounstage height, width, depth, and tone, I'd sure like to invest in that tool.

F1nut

So much for having an open mind.

Just for the record, no, I don't have a $1000 pair of speaker cables, nor will I, ever. I don't even had a $1000 speaker! You can all believe what you want, and I really don't mind.

If you don't care what we believe, why are you posting your mantra?

I would just like to point out that it's fallacious to attack me, in terms of attacks on my credentials, experience, or level of immersion in this particular hobby.

No, it's not as you have a complete lack of credentials, experience, or level of immersion in this particular hobby.

quadzilla

jviss wrote: »

By the way, I regret having responded to the ad hominem argument on this topic. I would be happy to discuss, or argue the merits of the situation, that is, why any parameter other than resistance is important to a good quality speaker connection. I've read all about the merits and 'sonic quality' of cryogenically treated, oxygen-free copper cable, super-deluxe banana plugs, braided conductors, and the like, and I reject all of the claims of sonic superiority for all of this nonsense. It is a scam, and a waste of consumers' money. Tons of research has been done on this topic, including the invention of the ABX method specifically for speaker cable, and in carefully controlled, true double-blind trials, no one has been able to hear a difference.

Check these links:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html

Wow... really? So you're statement is that resistance is the only thing that matters? Funny... I called that idiotic just the other day. Any who... maybe you'll believe this guy. He's actually not trying to sell you anything. He just explains what makes some cables good and some bad. http://tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

jviss

quadzilla wrote: »

Wow... really? So you're statement is that resistance is the only thing that matters? Funny... I called that idiotic just the other day. Any who... maybe you'll believe this guy. He's actually not trying to sell you anything. He just explains what makes some cables good and some bad. http://tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

Anyone talking about skin effect regarding cables used at audio frequencies is either selling snake oil, or subject to the nonsense that many others have apparently swallowed.

F1nut

jviss, you are wasting your time as most of us here have tried better cables and therefore know there is a difference. There are other places where folks with little to no experience, like you, think like you. Perhaps they would be more open to your presence.

jviss

F1nut wrote: »

jviss, you are wasting your time as most of us here have tried better cables and therefore know there is a difference. There are other places where folks with little to no experience, like you, think like you. Perhaps they would be more open to your presence.

Now that's a compelling argument. I don't agree with you, so I should get out?

pearsall001

jviss wrote: »

Now that's a compelling argument. I don't agree with you, so I should get out?

Sadly, that's the normal response you'll get around here. You'll find no love around here if you don't fall in line with the general concensus. Grow a thick skin & by all means stick around.

Toolfan66

jviss wrote: »

Now that's a compelling argument. I don't agree with you, so I should get out?

If this is the only reason you came here then yes!! If not then stick around..

Syndil

jviss, welcome to the sane side of audio. Just so you know you are not alone, I agree 100% with you. However, I will not argue what someone subjectively perceives, as it is impossible to refute what someone else thinks they can hear. Of course there is a scientific method for eliminating subjectivity or placebo from any comparative test, which is the double-blind test, but the audiophile community has rejected the double-blind test on the grounds that, since it is unable to distinguish so-called higher-quality speaker cable from zip cord, then the testing process itself must be faulty. Of course to you and me this is absurd to the point of inducing incredulous laughter, but I'm not making that up--that's seriously what they believe. So I humbly recommend that, when you encounter subjectivity, just smile and nod. They will perceive us as "labcoats" who choose to limit our audio experience by not investing a proportional amount of our budget in strands of copper, and they will remind us of a Thomas Tusser quote about a fool and his money. But trying to argue the topic of cabling with an audiophile is like trying to argue someone's religion. No middle ground will be achieved, so it's pointless to engage in the discussion.


Now, can we please call a truce and get back on the topic of banana plugs...


I have purchased Nakamichi-branded banana plugs from eBay and have been quite satisfied with them. Over the years I've purchased both the ones with the plastic jacket on them and those with the metal jacket on them, and they are both of very high quality in my opinion. The plug itself is the same regardless of the type of jacket installed. Seems a bit silly to have a metal jacket on a banana plug since you don't want the ends to make contact with each other, but this is easily preventable so I buy whatever I can find cheapest at the time. At this particular moment there are very few plastic-jacketed Nakamichi plugs for sale on eBay, and they are more expensive than the metal-jacketed ones.

When it comes to cables I usually buy from Monoprice, but I have avoided the Monoprice banana plugs because of the way they grab on to the wire and also because that, once you include shipping, they cost about a dollar a piece. The Nakamichi plugs use two set-screws to securely grab the cable, and those screws are hidden by the jacket once it is installed. With a little bit of searching, you can find them for close to 70 cents a piece (shipped) on eBay.

tonyb

Jviss,
Your more than welcome to an opposing viewpoint....at least in my book anyway, but look at it like this.

Your an electrical engineer, correct ? You went to school, you studied, have experience in Transmission lines, cool, fantastic. If I was to come along and tell you how to do your job, you would say get lost, what experience do you have telling me what to do.

Flip that coin, and what your doing is telling those with experience, that your opinion matters even though you have no experience. Thats all we are trying to tell you Sir, grab some experience under your belt before passing judgement. Surely an educated man such as yourself can see the value in experience.

Syndil,
A tad patronizing don't you think ? Again, we would have more respect of your opinions if it came with some experience behind it.

jviss

tonyb wrote: »

Jviss,
Your more than welcome to an opposing viewpoint....at least in my book anyway, but look at it like this.

Your an electrical engineer, correct ? You went to school, you studied, have experience in Transmission lines, cool, fantastic. If I was to come along and tell you how to do your job, you would say get lost, what experience do you have telling me what to do.

Flip that coin, and what your doing is telling those with experience, that your opinion matters even though you have no experience. Thats all we are trying to tell you Sir, grab some experience under your belt before passing judgement. Surely an educated man such as yourself can see the value in experience.

Syndil,
A tad patronizing don't you think ? Again, we would have more respect of your opinions if it came with some experience behind it.

Why do you assume that I have no experience in audio engineering?

I'm not telling anyone they don't know something, I'm just expressing my view on the topic.

jviss

Syndil wrote: »

jviss, welcome to the sane side of audio. Just so you know you are not alone, I agree 100% with you. However, I will not argue what someone subjectively perceives, as it is impossible to refute what someone else thinks they can hear. Of course there is a scientific method for eliminating subjectivity or placebo from any comparative test, which is the double-blind test, but the audiophile community has rejected the double-blind test on the grounds that, since it is unable to distinguish so-called higher-quality speaker cable from zip cord, then the testing process itself must be faulty. Of course to you and me this is absurd to the point of inducing incredulous laughter, but I'm not making that up--that's seriously what they believe. So I humbly recommend that, when you encounter subjectivity, just smile and nod. They will perceive us as "labcoats" who choose to limit our audio experience by not investing a proportional amount of our budget in strands of copper, and they will remind us of a Thomas Tusser quote about a fool and his money. But trying to argue the topic of cabling with an audiophile is like trying to argue someone's religion. No middle ground will be achieved, so it's pointless to engage in the discussion.


Now, can we please call a truce and get back on the topic of banana plugs...


I have purchased Nakamichi-branded banana plugs from eBay and have been quite satisfied with them. Over the years I've purchased both the ones with the plastic jacket on them and those with the metal jacket on them, and they are both of very high quality in my opinion. The plug itself is the same regardless of the type of jacket installed. Seems a bit silly to have a metal jacket on a banana plug since you don't want the ends to make contact with each other, but this is easily preventable so I buy whatever I can find cheapest at the time. At this particular moment there are very few plastic-jacketed Nakamichi plugs for sale on eBay, and they are more expensive than the metal-jacketed ones.

When it comes to cables I usually buy from Monoprice, but I have avoided the Monoprice banana plugs because of the way they grab on to the wire and also because that, once you include shipping, they cost about a dollar a piece. The Nakamichi plugs use two set-screws to securely grab the cable, and those screws are hidden by the jacket once it is installed. With a little bit of searching, you can find them for close to 70 cents a piece (shipped) on eBay.

Thanks.

jviss

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORDOST-ODIN-SPEAKER-CABLES-2-METER-LONG-BEST-SPEAKER-CABLES-WORLD-/180805241285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a18d509c5#ht_2277wt_1348

Hey, maybe I should get these? They're only $16,500 for the 2 meter pair of cables!

tonyb

jviss wrote: »

Why do you assume that I have no experience in audio engineering?
.

Never said you had no experience in audio engineering, I said you have no experience with different higher end cables. Not talking mega buck cables either, once you get into a couple hundred buck interconnects, the world is your oyster on sound differences between them.

Let me ask straight up then, do you see value in experience ? It's a yes or no question btw.