Quality banana plugs and speaker wire?

jviss

tonyb wrote: »

Never said you had no experience in audio engineering, I said you have no experience with different higher end cables. Not talking mega buck cables either, once you get into a couple hundred buck interconnects, the world is your oyster on sound differences between them.

Let me ask straight up then, do you see value in experience ? It's a yes or no question btw.

Sure. But I don't just buy into conventional thinking. I'm a critical thinker, and observer.

I might also ask you, Tony, do you see the value in formal education? Yes or no, btw.

tonyb

jviss wrote: »

Sure. But I don't just buy into conventional thinking. I'm a critical thinker, and observer.

I might also ask you, Tony, do you see the value in formal education? Yes or no, btw.

Of coarse I do, only a dumb **** would say no. Formal education only becomes of value went put into practical use, as in experience. Since you yourself claim to have none in this area, your education will mean squat. We are not just talking conventional thoughts, we are talking those who have tried different cables and hear differences. You look for a scientific way of explaining such without ever hearing what your railing against. For a critical thinker, that doesn't make sense to me.

Syndil

tonyb wrote: »

Syndil,
A tad patronizing don't you think ?

No more than I have been patronized here in the past, or as much as jviss is being patronized here. I figure the adage "if you can't take the heat, then stay out of the kitchen" applied.

No interest in bringing the topic back around to banana plugs?

jviss

Tony, I'm not ever going to buy a $1000 speaker cable, so I guess I'm never going to hear the difference in my living room. I'm sure you recognize, though, that simply saying that hearing is believing is not sufficient justification for such an expensive 'component' with little, if any objective evidence to support its value, notwithstanding the double blind studies refuting the assertion that there's something to it.

I don't think the argument is going anywhere, and I don't think it's adding any value to the OP's question, so at this point I'll quit the thread. Nothing personal, I am interested in your view, and others, too.

quadzilla

jviss wrote: »

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORDOST-ODIN-SPEAKER-CABLES-2-METER-LONG-BEST-SPEAKER-CABLES-WORLD-/180805241285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a18d509c5#ht_2277wt_1348

Hey, maybe I should get these? They're only $16,500 for the 2 meter pair of cables!

Maybe... is your system enough of a true reference system that it would benefit from these cables? If not, then no. It'd be a waste of money.

That said, I used to be like you. I thought audio signals were just voltage and current, and if the voltage and current out equaled the voltage and current in, then it was all good. But then I tried some different cables, and the sound was different. Then I did some measuring with my AVR, and it actually showed flatter frequency response as well as more even response in the time domain. At that point, I understood that there's more to a cable than resistance. But if you want to stick with whatever you think you know, then go ahead. You're actually missing out, but you'll never know that, and while it's your right to be as ignorant as you want, don't try to inflict your ignorance on the rest of us. It won't win you any friends.

jviss

quadzilla wrote: »

Maybe... is your system enough of a true reference system that it would benefit from these cables? If not, then no. It'd be a waste of money.

That said, I used to be like you. I thought audio signals were just voltage and current, and if the voltage and current out equaled the voltage and current in, then it was all good. But then I tried some different cables, and the sound was different. Then I did some measuring with my AVR, and it actually showed flatter frequency response as well as more even response in the time domain. At that point, I understood that there's more to a cable than resistance. But if you want to stick with whatever you think you know, then go ahead. You're actually missing out, but you'll never know that, and while it's your right to be as ignorant as you want, don't try to inflict your ignorance on the rest of us. It won't win you any friends.

I don't even know how to reply to that last comment, that's just incredibly rude.

F1nut

No, what's rude is you and and that other inexperienced person coming in here and insulting the intelligence of those with actual experience on this subject matter.

jviss

F1nut wrote: »

No, what's rude is you and and that other inexperienced person coming in here and insulting the intelligence of those with actual experience on this subject matter.

That's not so, I never made a personal attack, I only questioned the technology. People who disagreed chose to take it personally, and there's nothing I can do about that.

jviss

So, I guess this topic is the third rail of audio forums, similar to discussions of oil in motorsports forums. I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, so sorry about stirring things up. I stick by my view on this, and I recognize that not everyone agrees; fine with that.

F1nut

You only questioned the technology? No, you made it clear that high end cables are worthless despite the fact that you have ZERO experience with them. That is an insult to those who have experience, whether you get that or not there's nothing I can do about it.

jviss

F1nut wrote: »

You only questioned the technology? No, you made it clear that high end cables are worthless despite the fact that you have ZERO experience with them. That is an insult to those who have experience, whether you get that or not there's nothing I can do about it.

That's an extreme response. It's not generally considered a personal insult to declare one's view of a product or technology, in a product or technology discussion forum.

Toolfan66

Q4t imo..

tonyb

Well, Yeah, it is kinda of an insult to tell people with experience that it's impossible for them to hear what they hear Jviss, especialy since you haven't heard what they are listening to. No more than I can tell a pilot what to do without having sat in his seat flying a plane. You can go to school, be taught how to fly a plane, but it's the experience that sets you apart in a given field. Now, maybe you should e-mail some cable companies, they do employ electrical engineers. Not like they have snot nosed kids designing cables. I believe they would be better at speaking your language so to speak.

jviss

I can only say, then, that you and your high-end cable cohorts are incredibly thin skinned. I am also surprised at how quickly and stridently you react to perceived criticism of your cable...orthodoxy.

rebuy

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

I knew there would be an argument here.

Syndil

jviss wrote: »

I can only say, then, that you and your high-end cable cohorts are incredibly thin skinned. I am also surprised at how quickly and stridently you react to perceived criticism of your cable...orthodoxy.

Now you're getting it! Welcome aboard.

quadzilla

jviss wrote: »

I don't even know how to reply to that last comment, that's just incredibly rude.

Try responding to the assertions made. Or didn't you learn how to do that during your formal training? Nor is it actually rude, since you have, in fact, demonstrated considerable ignorance on the topic on which you've chosen to hold forth. And truly, it would seem that you are, in fact, the thin-skinned one. You claim to be a critical thinker and observer, yet offer not one single fact to back up your earlier claim that only resistance matters in audio cabling. Further, it follows that you believe that capacitance, inductance, hysteresis effects due to dielectric absorption and discharge, the non-linear effects of electrons crossing between conductors in a multistranded non-litz configuration, skin effect, etc., do not matter in audio cabling, given your assertion that only resistance matters. It is my counter-assertion that these do affect the audio signal, both at the interconnect and at the speaker cable levels, though different effects hold primary sway at different points in the chain. The reason being that, especially when it comes to vocals, the human ear and brain are very finely tuned to perceive correct versus incorrect timing in the audio signal, and any distortions introduced, especially in the time domain, will register as wrong to anyone that listens to the affected source. It might not be noticed in a 30 second burst, but will reveal itself in realistic listening.

Now, can you manage to respond to any of that, or do you think I'm appealing to faith, as your snide reference to "cable orthodoxy" would indicate?

And if you feel some part of that was "rude", you're welcome to your perceptions. I won't try to tell you that you're mistaken. So instead, simply ignore the part you feel is rude and respond to the assertions of fact. Again, assuming your formal training prepared you for such an endeavor. My guess is that you're going to have to google at least half that to even understand what I'm talking about. But it's just a guess, and I could be wrong.

F1nut

Syndil wrote: »

Now you're getting it!

Says the guy with ZERO cable experience to the other guy with ZERO cable experience. Hilarious!!!

F1nut

I have to go back a few pages and bring up this gem by our new EE.

jviss wrote:

My only concern about brass or gold barrel plugs is that if you unplug them for some reason and they touch with the amplifier on, they will short the output. This will damage most amps.

For someone of your claimed education and knowledge I'm surprised you don't know that disconnecting or connecting cables with an amp powered up is a basic no-no.

Syndil

F1nut wrote: »

Says the guy with ZERO cable experience to the other guy with ZERO cable experience. Hilarious!!!

What's hilarious is how much you claim to know about me, and on numerous occasions.

jviss, if you do stick around, you will learn there are certain topics to avoid, and especially certain people to avoid engaging in those topics. F1nut is at the top of that list. I received much the same welcome from him that you are receiving now. Remember, smile and nod...

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

For someone of your claimed education and knowledge I'm surprised you don't know that disconnecting or connecting cables with an amp powered up is a basic no-no.

Bingo.....hence the value of his electrical engineering in the audio world is suspect.

tonyb

Syndil wrote: »

Remember, smile and nod...

Actually we do the same thing to you, but I guess all is good as long as everyone smiles.

Syndil

tonyb wrote: »

Actually we do the same thing to you, but I guess all is good as long as everyone smiles.

I will drink to that. I'm sure if we all met in person, we'd have no trouble getting along just fine. Cheers!

F1nut

Syndil wrote: »

What's hilarious is how much you claim to know about me, and on numerous occasions.

jviss, if you do stick around, you will learn there are certain topics to avoid, and especially certain people to avoid engaging in those topics. F1nut is at the top of that list. I received much the same welcome from him that you are receiving now. Remember, smile and nod...

It's really pretty simple, reading comprehension. I excell at it.

I read what you write, including your gear list and know with absolute certainty that you have never tried high end cables, never mind high end gear.

BTW, I do smile and nod every time I see you post and confirm what I already know.

tonyb

......as long as your buying.:cheesygrin:

Syndil

F1nut wrote: »

It's really pretty simple, reading comprehension. I excell at it.

I read what you write, including your gear list and know with absolute certainty that you have never tried high end cables, never mind high end gear.

I assume your reading comprehension matches your spelling ability, as your "absolute certainty" is absolutely incorrect. Just because I refuse to engage in the pissing contest does not mean I could not compete in it. You assume too much.

pyrocyborg

F1nut wrote: »

I have to go back a few pages and bring up this gem by our new EE.



For someone of your claimed education and knowledge I'm surprised you don't know that disconnecting or connecting cables with an amp powered up is a basic no-no.

Well... if you read it's post, you'll see "unplug them for some reason": It was probably meaning that if someone or something accidentally unplug it, it could short the output. At least, that's what I think.

But please everyone, I am sorry that I started a topic like that... My main concern was the bananaplugs. Sure I was looking for some opinion about wire quality and price, but I know now that my cable might be just fine for my use and rig quality. Rationnally, there is no point in buying 200$ worth of cable for a 800$ system, even if that made a slight difference as this amount could be placed elsewhere. If it does make a difference on vey high-end gear, I don't know, I never listened to anything higher than a 4000$ rig.

Anyways, I guess it would be better for everyone to stop harguing like that, it's going nowhere and it won't help anyone... even if everyone is doing this to defend their own point. From what I can see, EE will probably never be able to convince audiophiles that "a cable is a cable", and neither will the audiophiles be able to convince EE that there is a difference in sound quality...

One day, I shall try on a better system (with someone else cables... )

Syndil

I tried to bring it back around...

I recommend checking out the Nakamichi plugs on eBay. They're cheap enough to buy a pair to try out and then discard if you don't like them.

F1nut

Syndil wrote: »

I assume your reading comprehension matches your spelling ability, as your "absolute certainty" is absolutely incorrect. Just because I refuse to engage in the pissing contest does not mean I could not compete in it. You assume too much.

You would assume correctly because my spelling is absolutely correct.

Maybe you'd like to tell us about all that high end gear, including that Sony mini disk player.

And maybe you'd like to explain why your comment,

The trick is sorting the overpriced garbage from the bang-for-your-buck performers. The only way I know how to do that is to audition them.

doesn't apply to speaker cables.

F1nut

pyrocyborg, my suggestion on banana plugs is to get the kind that requires soldering the wire. A solder joint always beats a mechanical connection.