Holy Grail

inspiredsports

This guy has listed these for several weeks without ever getting his starting bid of 6 X $50, (or 6 X $70 "Buy it Now") . . . http://cgi.ebay.com/Telefunken-5965-12AV7-E180CC-12R-RL3-tubes-very-rare-/120709890588

Since it's been so long I wonder if he would consider maybe $40 per tube.

Is anyone else here interested in a pair (so we could split his 6 3-ways) and maybe end up around $85 per pair delivered?

########################

On another note, I just rolled the NOS Westinghouse 5965 Gold Pin tubes (mentioned and pictured above in post #58) into V4 and V8 on my CJ pre.

They are exceptionally good even with just a few hours on them, I think even better than then the NOS Sylvania Gold Brand (but not gold pin) 5965's I took out.

Next up are a pair of NOS Mullard (Mitchum, Shield Logo) CV4024/M8162's and a pair of NOS RCA 5965 Copper S-Rod Triple Mica's.

I probably should sell something before considering those Telefunken's. but I get attached to these darn things :biggrin:

audio_alan

^^^ Yeah, I saw that Telefunken auction too, but I'm not interested in 6 of them at that price. Splitting the auction 3 ways sound good to me, but it would be nice if we could get him down to $40 a tube (or less! :biggrin:), as you suggested...

heiney9

Outfitter03 wrote: »

Received my Dared SL2000A yesterday. This is used and 2009 vintage in mint condition. It is the newer version with two channels of input and output RCA connections.

This newer versions come with a generic "Farad" brand coupling capacitor vs. Auricap. It appears to be .22uf and 400v. There is not a lot of room in this case. The PCB mounting holes are 1" spread and there is about 0.875" clearance from PCB to cover plate.

Thinking about replacing these generic caps with the Rel Cap TFTs. Here http://www.partsconnexion.com/PDF/relcap.pdf. I believe these should fit in and shouldn't be that hard to install. Any opinions on these caps for preamp input coupling?

This unit also came with a pair of Mullard ECC81 Black Sable tubes. I found these at Tube Depot and they appear to be a specialty Cryo product.

My analog source is out being modded, so I can't try this out yet. This will give me some time to pick up two or three of the recommended tube choices to roll.:cool:

Why not Auricaps? I love Auricaps for coupling caps. Those are not true Mullards, they are Russian repro's IIRC. Get some better OS tubes. Certainly take your time, but there is a whole other world of tubes better than (Russian) Mullard reproduction's.

H9

heiney9

inspiredsports wrote: »

This guy has listed these for several weeks without ever getting his starting bid of 6 X $50, (or 6 X $70 "Buy it Now") . . . http://cgi.ebay.com/Telefunken-5965-12AV7-E180CC-12R-RL3-tubes-very-rare-/120709890588

Since it's been so long I wonder if he would consider maybe $40 per tube.

Is anyone else here interested in a pair (so we could split his 6 3-ways) and maybe end up around $85 per pair delivered?

########################

On another note, I just rolled the NOS Westinghouse 5965 Gold Pin tubes (mentioned and pictured above in post #58) into V4 and V8 on my CJ pre.

They are exceptionally good even with just a few hours on them, I think even better than then the NOS Sylvania Gold Brand (but not gold pin) 5965's I took out.

Next up are a pair of NOS Mullard (Mitchum, Shield Logo) CV4024/M8162's and a pair of NOS RCA 5965 Copper S-Rod Triple Mica's.

I probably should sell something before considering those Telefunken's. but I get attached to these darn things :biggrin:

I'd take a pair, the only thing suspicious is his feedback. He's on his 3rd listing at the same price...........he should have lowered the price by now. I'd wait him out until he lowers the price. Looking at the construction they are the older of the two styles the 5965 comes in. These are rare tubes no matter which construction you find. Since they are long plate they might be prone to microphonics and what happens if one of us gets the microphonic one? I have an orphan so I could take just (1) tube to match my orphan and leave an extra if one of us has a microphonic one.

The pair I bought turned out to be slightly microphonic, tube dampers seemed to tame them. That may not happen in all instances. I'd check with him about his return policy if they are microphonic.

They are probably worth what he's asking, but I don't like his feedback and they aren't selling at that price so he needs to reduce them.

H9

Outfitter03

heiney9 wrote: »

Why not Auricaps? I love Auricaps for coupling caps. Those are not true Mullards, they are Russian repro's IIRC. Get some better OS tubes. Certainly take your time, but there is a whole other world of tubes better than (Russian) Mullard reproduction's.

H9

Heiney9 do you know what the voltage rating is on your Auricaps. Is it 400v also or did they install the 600v ones? I have nothing against the Auricaps, just don't want to spend a lot of time and money on tubes trying to match up with a generic capacitor. You have a lot of experience with this unit and if you are satisfied with the Auricap, that sounds good to me.

The tubes were not purchased by me separately, came with the unit. Thanks for your feedback.

inspiredsports

audio_alan wrote: »

^^^ Yeah, I saw that Telefunken auction too, but I'm not interested in 6 of them at that price. Splitting the auction 3 ways sound good to me, but it would be nice if we could get him down to $40 a tube (or less! :biggrin:), as you suggested...

I've initiated contact and will see if I can work something out that is fair and safe for all of us

inspiredsports

The seller emailed this morning stating that the starting bid is $300 (plus $15 shipping to the US), he will not end the auction early, and his pricing is not negotiable by even one penny.

He also said that the buyer keeps the tubes no matter what; No Returns.

After this response, I have to agree with Brock that this seller's feedback indicates he's probably one to be avoided.

Oh well. I tried :biggrin:

heiney9

Yep, best to pass on this one. I have a line on dealer that supposedly has these. As soon as I get some time I will inquire and let everyone know.

H9

heiney9

Keiko wrote: »

Charming fellow. I might of responded with a 'shove it' to a response like that.

BTW, Brock, I was on tubeasylum a couple nights ago and read the GE 5965 clear tops are supposed to be pretty good. I never rolled the ones I picked up from you awhile back, so I'm thinking I'll give 'em a try soon. I've just been enjoying these Valvos so much and if it ain't broke, I figure it don't need to be fixed.

Cheers,

Mike

I have or had a pair of the GE 5965 clear tops..........IIRC, nothing special. I might have moved those along already. I haven't even upacked any tubes and not a single rig up and running yet since the move. :biggrin:


if it ain't broke.....

That's a good philosphy, and that's where I was until I found the TFK 5965's. I had heard about them and rarely see them FS so I decided to pull the trigger.....so glad I did, but I'm content for awhile, maybe for a long while.

H9

P.s. I'd say let the charming fellow hang on to his overpriced tubes. Actually he's about right on $$$, but with his attitude and NO RETURNS policy they aren't worth the price. I found a dealer in Vietnam that supposedly has these NOS in boxes. Most of the stuff on the website is in Vietnamese and I'm not sure how responsive the seller will be to my inquires.

heiney9

Keiko wrote: »

Janey and I may be homeless soon if this damn economy doesn't turn around soon. Got any spare rooms?

Yes, I do.........but I am quite sure you would hate the weather here in Illinois after a lifetime in Hawaii

Hang in there..........a family member was unemployed for 16 months and finally landed a great job.

H9

inspiredsports

Keiko wrote: »

We have a contingency plan. Janey's gonna pimp me out. Long hours, but the pay will be great. :rolleyes:

Mike, you may need a cardboard sign that says, "Will Work For Toobs!" :biggrin:

audio_alan

inspiredsports wrote: »

The seller emailed this morning stating that the starting bid is $300 (plus $15 shipping to the US), he will not end the auction early, and his pricing is not negotiable by even one penny.

He also said that the buyer keeps the tubes no matter what; No Returns.

After this response, I have to agree with Brock that this seller's feedback indicates he's probably one to be avoided.

Oh well. I tried :biggrin:

Thanks for trying anyway, inspired. The no return policy is enough to make me leery...

On a similar note, I received a pair of military spec GE JAN 12AT7WC tubes (circa 1977) in the mail today and just rolled them into my SL-2000a. So far they seem to have a better (lower) background noise level over the stock tubes. I'm not sure if I can hear much other difference, but they've only burned in for all of 45 minutes so far. If they improve like the stock ones did over the past several days, I think they'll be a good upgrade. At the very least I like the way they look better than the stock tubes. :rolleyes:

soundfreak1

Glad to read. All that find the darad as incredable as I do ( have a 2007 SE model) rolled tubes for some months both stock and some rca nos but bought some seimens from brent jesse and wow!!! Than upgrades to telefunken also from brent and I don't roll any more!!! The funkens handle everything perfectly!!!!! The darad is great but spend the money on the seimens or funkins you won't be disapointed just amazed! It was real good with the us tubes but the diff. With the better tubes was and is truely incredible! The price I paid for the tubes was not that much at all especially considering the improvement in all aspects- sound preasure and accuracy and low end. Didn't think my 12b's or ess-102's could possible sound that good.

heiney9

Nice to hear Audio Alan, but those GE's are still pretty middle of the road. Probably better than the Chinese. Have fun, keep rolling, but start to step it up. If you need recommendations let me know. If you can get the search function to work look for my other Dared posts. I rolled a lot of tubes and certainly wasn't shy about posting my impressions.

H9

audio_alan

Keiko wrote: »

Anything is better than those crappy, Shuguang stock tubes. GE made some very nice 6201s in their 5 Star series that are worth keeping an eye out for.
I scored a triple mica, NOS pair (1959) on ebay last year for 25.00.

I almost won some 5 star's a couple days ago, but didn't bid high enough. I guess I need to be more agressive on some of these auctions...

heiney9 wrote: »

Nice to hear Audio Alan, but those GE's are still pretty middle of the road. Probably better than the Chinese. Have fun, keep rolling, but start to step it up. If you need recommendations let me know. If you can get the search function to work look for my other Dared posts. I rolled a lot of tubes and certainly wasn't shy about posting my impressions.

H9

Yeah, I figured the GE's probably wouldn't be top of the line, but also assumed they would be money well spent ($15 after shipping) just to replace the stock tubes and start me into rolling.... while I look for some of the more highly sought after tubes. Not to mention, getting the perfect tube right away might not be as fun as going through a few sets to find "it".

I have been reading your other posts and will keep an eye out for some reasonably priced (yeah, right!) Tele's or Valvo's. I have an England made Brimar 5Z4G Rectifier on the way, so hopefully that makes some noticable improvements as well. Not sure of the vintage of the Brimar, but it looks old...

What do you think about a pair of MULLARD ECC81 12AT7's?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220765818796&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

inspiredsports

audio_alan wrote: »

I almost won some 5 star's a couple days ago, but didn't bid high enough. I guess I need to be more agressive on some of these auctions...



Yeah, I figured the GE's probably wouldn't be top of the line, but also assumed they would be money well spent ($15 after shipping) just to replace the stock tubes and start me into rolling.... while I look for some of the more highly sought after tubes. Not to mention, getting the perfect tube right away might not be as fun as going through a few sets to find "it".

I have been reading your other posts and will keep an eye out for some reasonably priced (yeah, right!) Tele's or Valvo's. I have an England made Brimar 5Z4G Rectifier on the way, so hopefully that makes some noticable improvements as well. Not sure of the vintage of the Brimar, but it looks old...

What do you think about a pair of MULLARD ECC81 12AT7's?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220765818796&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

If you are after GE tubes, you might consider RCA blackplates instead which aren't a lot more money (sometimes even the same amount), but are a LOT more tube.

Telefunkens are never "reasonably" priced unless they are about shot, but you can sometimes find attractive buys on Valvo's. On the other hand, Telefunkens almost ALWAYS sound great.

I picked this up from F1 (and have tried hard to beat them) and the best Mullard ECC81/12AT7 is the derivative military grade CV4024/M8162. They are plentiful and run between $25 and $30 per tube delivered. The best seem to be those with both CV4024 and M8162 stamped on the tube and the Mullard "Shield" logo present. They come from the Mitcham factory which is designated by the number "654" stamped somewhere on the tube.

I have 7 very good to exceptional quads of 12AT7 or derivative (including a $500 NOS matched quad of the supposed holy grail Telefunken ECC801S's) and (AT LEAST IN MY AMP) a $100-$120 quad of Mullard CV4024/M8162's edges everything else out.

audio_alan

inspiredsports wrote: »

If you are after GE tubes, you might consider RCA blackplates instead which aren't a lot more money (sometimes even the same amount), but are a LOT more tube.

Telefunkens are never "reasonably" priced unless they are about shot, but you can sometimes find attractive buys on Valvo's.

I picked this up from F1 (and have tried hard to beat them) and the best Mullard ECC81/12AT7 is the derivative military grade CV4024/M8162. They are plentiful and run between $25 and $30 per tube delivered. The best seem to be those with both CV4024 and M8162 stamped on the tube and the Mullard "Shield" logo present. They come from the Mitcham factory which is designated by the number "654" stamped somewhere on the tube.

I have 7 very good to exceptional quads of 12AT7 or derivative (including a $500 NOS matched quad of the supposed holy grail Telefunken ECC801S's) and (AT LEAST IN MY AMP) a $100-$120 quad of Mullard CV4024/M8162's edges everything else out.

Well, it's not that I'm looking for GE's in particular. I've just been looking for some good deals. I'll keep an eye out for some Valvo's. It seems like Telefunkens have "the name" and command top dollar, but if they're really worth it, maybe I should just drop the cash and be done with it. Either way, I'd like to build up a small-medium sized tube stash...

How about these gold pin Mulards? Still the wrong model?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ECC801s-12AT7-Mullard-Gold-Pin-Tube-Match-Pair-20-avl-/120694904123?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c19fa153b

One thing that's for sure, the tube world is a little confusing with so many variants, manufacturers, dates, military grade vs. not, etc., but I'm enjoying the challenge so far!

Thanks for the continued advice guys. This really is a great forum!

inspiredsports

I should have used this image in post #88 as it is the oldest Mullard logo designating the earliest production which are thought to be just slightly better than the newer logo tubes.

The auction you found is good, and those tubes are built in the same Mithcam UK factory as the mil spec CV4024/M8162. I don't know if the mil spec is manufactured differently, or just selected for better traits after production, but both are great tubes and the gold pins are certainly a benefit.

The only point is that (this month) I purchased another closely matched quad of CV4024/M8162's for $28 dollars each delivered. The Mullards in the auction you found are not as tightly selected, and $38 each delivered (and he states he has 20 pairs).

inspiredsports

audio_alan wrote: »

. . . one thing that's for sure, the tube world is a little confusing with so many variants, manufacturers, dates, military grade vs. not, etc., but I'm enjoying the challenge so far! . . .

A good resource to clear things up (or confuse you more :biggrin:): Brent Jessee . . .

http://www.audiotubes.com - homepage

http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm - 12AT7 in specific

audio_alan

inspiredsports wrote: »

...snip, snip....

The only point is that (this month) I purchased another closely matched quad of CV4024/M8162's for $28 dollars each delivered. The Mullards in the auction you found are not as tightly selected, and $38 each delivered (and he states he has 20 pairs).

It sounds like I can do better then, price-wise. I should probably just be patient since I'm still amazed at the increased sound quality I'm getting with the Dared SL-2000a in my setup (not to mention I still have more tubes on the way from other auctions, so there is no rush to buy more right now).

Buying a pair of SDA-SRS's really took my music listening to another level, and then adding tubes (with the SL-2000a) unleashed even more of their potential. Now the bass sounds incredible, and the imaging and clarity seem to have increased by another notch or two as well. I can only imagine what they're going to sound like when I find the "perfect" tubes. I'd probably laugh if I had to hear my system from a year ago - night and day difference! :biggrin:

Keiko - Thanks for mentioning your list of favorite tubes as well! It should help to have a few different types to look for, since all of them aren't always available.

One more thing, this might be a stupid question (and perhaps already discussed), but..... Does the left channel go through the left 12AT7, and the right channel go through the right 12AT7 (or vica versa)? If so, that would probably mean that mixing and matching different tubes in the SL-2000a wouldn't be advised, right? Or, do both L/R signals travel through both tubes and the rectifier, meaning that it would be possible to find a possible synergy with different tubes? (i.e. A mullard, a raytheon, and a whatever rectifier)

inspiredsports

One other thing to note is that H9's original post is about (Telefunken) 5965's, a 12AT7/ECC81 variant with a mu factor (gain) of 47. The gain of a standard 12AT7/ECC81's is 60 mu.

I'm guessing the Dared SL2000A is designed to use 12AT7/ECC81's ?? Stepping down from 60 to 47 would always be OK, but stepping from 47 UP to 60 would cause me to contact Dared just to be sure.

The other thing to note is that 5965's are almost always long plate tubes, and may in some cases require a tube damper.

audio_alan

Good question on the voltages, etc. Minimal literature came with the SL-2000a, so I'm shooting in the dark a little on this stuff. I have seen other people mention various models of tubes as replacements, so it appears that slight variations are acceptable.... but maybe at a minimum those variations in tube parameters should match between sockets? H9 - Do you have any insights on this subject?

Well, I couldn't help myself. I had to pick up this rectifier too. It's untested, so I hope it works! It looks to be in great shape though...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=110670331842&si=XiZFNdG6wSlbm%252FnCkoVcd5HeNGg%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT#ht_500wt_1156

inspiredsports

audio_alan wrote: »

Good question on the voltages, etc. Minimal literature came with the SL-2000a, so I'm shooting in the dark a little on this stuff. I have seen other people mention various models of tubes as replacements, so it appears that slight variations are acceptable.... but maybe at a minimum those variations in tube parameters should match between sockets? H9 - Do you have any insights on this subject?

Well, I couldn't help myself. I had to pick up this rectifier too. It's untested, so I hope it works! It looks to be in great shape though...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=110670331842&si=XiZFNdG6wSlbm%252FnCkoVcd5HeNGg%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT#ht_500wt_1156

I just found specs online. 12AT7's are shipped from the factory.

Someone would need to look at a schematic to see how power flows to give a technical answer about different variants in the 12AT7 sockets. Guitarists do this with their MONO guitar amps all the time. Stereo probably makes a difference as I'm guessing it's 1 discrete 12AT7 per channel.

heiney9

audio_alan wrote: »

I almost won some 5 star's a couple days ago, but didn't bid high enough. I guess I need to be more agressive on some of these auctions...



Yeah, I figured the GE's probably wouldn't be top of the line, but also assumed they would be money well spent ($15 after shipping) just to replace the stock tubes and start me into rolling.... while I look for some of the more highly sought after tubes. Not to mention, getting the perfect tube right away might not be as fun as going through a few sets to find "it".

I have been reading your other posts and will keep an eye out for some reasonably priced (yeah, right!) Tele's or Valvo's. I have an England made Brimar 5Z4G Rectifier on the way, so hopefully that makes some noticable improvements as well. Not sure of the vintage of the Brimar, but it looks old...

What do you think about a pair of MULLARD ECC81 12AT7's?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220765818796&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

You've got the right idea as far tube rolling........make it fun, take your time.

I am not a big fan of Mullard signal tubes in my particular system. I still think they sound very good, just not 100% my "cup of tea".

Valvo Hamburg (the older the better) especiallly the 6201's

Telefunken ECC 81 are excellent, and despite what Greg says good ones can be bought cheaper than say an ECC83. I don't think I paid more than $45/pr shipped for very strong ones.

Telefunken ECC801S.......another fave, but very pricey. I bought mine so cheap it's embarassing, but it goes to show with perserverance you can find good deals. Mostly the same as the ECC81 they just give a little more everywhere. SOme complain they can sound a little thin on the bass.....never noticed that in my system. Ultra low noise.

GE 5 Star 6201 3 mica black plate (late 50's) are excellent, but bass can be a little uncontrolled compared to a TFK or Valvo. Soundstage is impressive. One might say a little exaggerated especially on SDA's. Still worth seeking out. I might just sell the back-up pair I have.

Raytheon 6414 3 mica black plate w/horse shoe getter (late 50's). These tubes are awesome, great midrange, great soundstage. They are long plate by design and some can be microphonic.

RFT ECC81 - made in Germany a very solid tube that does nothing wrong, last forever and you can find them very inexpensively.

Telefunken 5965 - my current favorite, very rare and hard to find especially in the US.

Those are a few off the top of my head.

You will LOVE the Brimar rectifier.

H9

heiney9

inspiredsports wrote: »

One other thing to note is that H9's original post is about (Telefunken) 5965's, a 12AT7/ECC81 variant with a mu factor (gain) of 47. The gain of a standard 12AT7/ECC81's is 60 mu.

I'm guessing the Dared SL2000A is designed to use 12AT7/ECC81's ?? Stepping down from 60 to 47 would always be OK, but stepping from 47 UP to 60 would cause me to contact Dared just to be sure.

The other thing to note is that 5965's are almost always long plate tubes, and may in some cases require a tube damper.

The TFK 5965's are long plate tubes, no short plate was ever made to my knowledge.

I've used just about every variant of 12AT7 (ECC81) without any issues. Refer here

http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm

H9

heiney9

I also 2nd the suggestion of RCA blackplates, but they can get pricey even in 12AT7 variety.

H9

heiney9

Later Mullards were not the same quality as earlier Mullards so watch out what you pay. There was a flood of late 70's early 80's Mullard logo tubes in circulation. Many cases they weren't even made by Mullard.

Tube codes and the ability to decipher them are very important. It's helps identify what you are actually getting. Philips distributed tubes under all kinds of brands and unless you get the codes you could be buying a Valvo, Siemens, Amperex all exactly the same tube since it came from the same plant at the same time. That's why I always refer to Valvo Hamburg tubes. Those were the only tubes Valvo actually made, the rest were re-labeled Philips tubes. Not that it's bad, just know what you are buying.

Many later Telefunkens were just re-labeled tubes made in East Germany (RFT) or even Philips tubes. TFK codes are hard to decipher. They don't sound like the classic Tele. Probably good tubes, but again, know what you are buying.

Here's an example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-New-Telefunken-12AT7-Tubes-Made-Siemens-/370500059999?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item564386435f

Made by Siemens so still very good tubes (depends on the codes). If the seller hadn't been forthcoming and you didn't know waht to look for you'd buy these thinking they were TFK's and they aren't

H9

audio_alan

Thanks for compiling your favorites into a list as well, H9! I'll add those to my list of ones to watch for. And yeah, I've read about and noticed the name games too. I think the older the tube, the more likely it's really a Mullard, or really a Valvo, etc.

I'm hoping that 30's/40's Brimar rectifier that I just won a few minutes ago works. Then I can say my stereo dates back to WWII. :biggrin: I think the other Brimar I won from ebay is a newer vintage, so it will be interesting to compare/contrast the two.

heiney9

There were no 30's 5Z4's, they started using them in WWII. Do you have a link? Who told you 30's-40's? Those old ones are very rare. I have 3 that date to WWII and they all have writing on the base and nothing on the glass. They also have square foil getters, later has "D" style getter.

It will still sound great, most of those I've seen on Ebay are very late 50's but mostly mid 60's. If there is writing on the glass then it's definitely 60's.

H9

audio_alan

Keiko wrote: »

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=110670331842&si=gMtMIoHygvvnr7fGr34YT5tvN%252BM%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

And look at what he scored it for. I'm pissed. :mad:

Yep, that was me. :biggrin: I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes!