Japan shook with 8.8 Quake and Hit By Tsunami

megasat16

Well, we now have a crisis on our own soil that has nothing to do with the current nuke reactor problems in Japan.

Some people on West Coast are stocking Potassium Iodide (KI) for no good reason and they don't know it doesn't do any good for what they are hoping it does.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_med_radiation_pills

And we need to send these KI to the folks in Japan who may be in dire needs coz they are the ones facing real problems now.

When do we learn not to apply snake oil (read bandage if snake oil is offensive to you) everywhere? It's quite intriguing and disturbing.

megasat16

BlueFox wrote: »

We all wish, but not quite.

"Japan suspended operations to prevent a stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility."

So, are they just going to let it meltdown, and then deal with the mess?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake

Well, I also read that news. I was waiting to see how it will morphed into.

I guess earlier, the workers were withdrawn for a period of time from the on site control room when it was too dangerous for them. And as I understand it, they sent another shift of workers or same workers back in there to attempt or continue working for a period of time.

But even that seems too risky now and they pulled back the workers from the site. I guess they can continue spraying from the ships on the Sea or from a distance using fire hydrants? I think it would be too dangerous for helis to fly over the reactors and dumping fluids from a high flying heli as it is as dangerous as shooting the cannon at the reactor. Besides, any explosions and combustion could take down the heli too.

At some point in time, if they can't do anything from the control room on site or from remote places from sea, I guess the real problem will begin. But it's too early to tell and I am sure there are options for them. And now with our US crews and operators there, they might come up with a plan and it might turn out to be positive tomorrow morning.

apphd

BlueFox wrote: »

We all wish, but not quite.

"Japan suspended operations to prevent a stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility."

So, are they just going to let it meltdown, and then deal with the mess?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake

Just trying to look for any good or best case explanation, opposite of what the news does, I'm thinking they feel they still have some control over things, the amount of radiation the workers have been exposed to so far, while not good is not as bad as the news would have us think, and they felt that they could do this to keep that exposure down and still not make the situation any worse. Like any fluid news event we are lucky to see/hear 10% of what are actuality and 90% speculation.

JustinHEMI

cheddar wrote: »

And I guess just a question about your latest pdf, even with injection continuing, it still appears they are having trouble keeping water levels where they need to be. And that they may have lost containment integrity on two of the reactors. And the spent fuel pools in the damaged unit 4 with all the fires is open to the environment. Am I reading this correctly?

Water levels in the reactors are fine. There is a minimum level for steam cooling and they are meeting that.

IF... and it is a big *IF* the vessels become breached, they will move to flooding containment. Which will keep a molten mass of core cool.

The damaged part of containment they are talking about is the surpression pool part.... which is not the part that would contain a molten core. The supression pools have already done their jobs... if they did it at all. Point is, they are beyond the need for a supression pool. However... it is a path to the environment for radiation to take.


Just to quel some fears... as bad as a meltdown is... it still needs to get through the reactor vessel... then it will get into containment... which they will flood and adequately cool. What if they can't flood containment? If it melts through that (unlikely) it will pool in the concrete liner. The more spread out it gets, the easier it is to cool. At this point, I'd argue that a total melt down of at least 1 of the cores might be a "better" option.

You're right, the spent fuel pool of #4 is a concern. It appears their entire core was offloaded to the pool... so that means there is a considerable amount of energy in that pool. One positive thing is that unlike in the core, these fuel rods are not packed together tightly in a critical array.

Justin

JustinHEMI

Rad levels are dropping. Making progess towards containing spent fuel pools.


http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300273535P.pdf

Joe08867

Another fire was observed at 5:45, Mar. 16, and then disappeared later.Other staff and workers than fifty TEPCO employees who are engaged in water injection operation have been evacuated.White smoke was seen rising from the vicinity of Unit-3 at around 8:30, Mar. 16. TEPCO estimates that failing to cool the SFP has resulted in evaporation of pool water,generating steam.

Does this mean that contaminated water steamed off?

JustinHEMI

Joe08867 wrote: »

Another fire was observed at 5:45, Mar. 16, and then disappeared later.Other staff and workers than fifty TEPCO employees who are engaged in water injection operation have been evacuated.White smoke was seen rising from the vicinity of Unit-3 at around 8:30, Mar. 16. TEPCO estimates that failing to cool the SFP has resulted in evaporation of pool water,generating steam.

Does this mean that contaminated water steamed off?

Yes.

Justin

cheddar

JustinHEMI wrote: »

The damaged part of containment they are talking about is the surpression pool part.... which is not the part that would contain a molten core. The supression pools have already done their jobs... if they did it at all. Point is, they are beyond the need for a supression pool. However... it is a path to the environment for radiation to take.

Reported for the #2 unit I did read that. However, the #3 unit was recently downgraded and it was reported that it might have been responsible for the release of the recent radiation spike that drove the workers away. Are you saying they've positively identified both breaches? (Appearantly it was over the maximimum allowed exposure at one point which triggered a mandatory evacuation. But they raised the 'acceptable' limit to more than double the old level and ordered them back in. I imagine this is not very good for those left fighting this on site.)

cheddar

Joe08867 wrote: »

Another fire was observed at 5:45, Mar. 16, and then disappeared later.Other staff and workers than fifty TEPCO employees who are engaged in water injection operation have been evacuated.White smoke was seen rising from the vicinity of Unit-3 at around 8:30, Mar. 16. TEPCO estimates that failing to cool the SFP has resulted in evaporation of pool water,generating steam.

Does this mean that contaminated water steamed off?

From what I can gather, the spent fuel pool is where they store the fuel rods after they remove them from the core. Which was done when they pulled unit 4 offline for maintenance. In more modern reactors, this fuel is even stored underground. But in this vintage of reactor, the fuel rods are just stored in a pool on the upper floor of the reactor building. So from what Justin says this is a core stored outside of the primary containment structure that is generating heat and causing all sorts of fires. The fires have burned away the outer building structure and the pool water is boiling off. So it's basically a core out in the open but seperated and encased to stop nuclear reaction. And all the continuing fires and steam is carrying radioactivity into the air.

They were talking about using helicopters to keep water on it. And are now talking about bringing in water cannons just shooting through all the holes in the structure. But the radiation there has kept workers (and possibly the helicopters) back.

JustinHEMI

cheddar wrote: »

Reported for the #2 unit I did read that. However, the #3 unit was recently downgraded and it was reported that it might have been responsible for the release of the recent radiation spike that drove the workers away. Are you saying they've positively identified both breaches? (Appearantly it was over the maximimum allowed exposure at one point which triggered a mandatory evacuation. But they raised the 'acceptable' limit to more than double the old level and ordered them back in. I imagine this is not very good for those left fighting this on site.)

Well they haven't reported that they positively identified the breaches... that would require a worker to put eyes on the breach... and I don't know anyone that would volunteer to go do that.

However, considering the "drywell" is at least a half foot thick of steel, and the supression pool is not, the probability is that it is supression pool damage. The drywell is meant to withstand a jetliner impact.

Justin

JustinHEMI

cheddar wrote: »

From what I can gather, the spent fuel pool is where they store the fuel rods after they remove them from the core. Which was done when they pulled unit 4 offline for maintenance. In more modern reactors, this fuel is even stored underground. But in this vintage of reactor, the fuel rods are just stored in a pool on the upper floor of the reactor building. So from what Justin says this is a core stored outside of the primary containment structure that is generating heat and causing all sorts of fires. The fires have burned away the outer building structure and the pool water is boiling off. So it's basically a core out in the open but seperated and encased to stop nuclear reaction. And all the continuing fires and steam is carrying radioactivity into the air.

They were talking about using helicopters to keep water on it. And are now talking about bringing in water cannons just shooting through all the holes in the structure. But the radiation there has kept workers (and possibly the helicopters) back.

I know someone reported that "modern" plants store fuel underground, but that is erroneous, at best. ALL plants in the USA store spent fuel in pools next to the reactor.

It is possible that hydrogen coming out of the water caused the fires, but hey also reported oil from equipment burning as the hydrogen would "flash" and be done so something else is feeding the fires.

Justin

nooshinjohn

I call them Modern day Samauri... They are the heroes that have chosen to remain behind in a valiant effort to prevent the worst case scenarion from happening.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/15/eveningnews/main20043554.shtml?tag=cbsnewsTwoColUpperPromoArea

exalted512

so is it impossible to make a suit that's able to reject the amount of radiation they're experiencing?

Seems like the radiation isnt THAT bad where a suit wouldnt protect them. I mean, its not like they're walking in and their skin is falling off...haha.

-Cody

cheddar

JustinHEMI wrote: »

I know someone reported that "modern" plants store fuel underground, but that is erroneous, at best. ALL plants in the USA store spent fuel in pools next to the reactor.

So I guess this is just another thing to add to the long list of areas for possible improvements to make in the US after this is over and the event is looked at in depth...

cheddar

exalted512 wrote: »

so is it impossible to make a suit that's able to reject the amount of radiation they're experiencing?

Seems like the radiation isnt THAT bad where a suit wouldnt protect them. I mean, its not like they're walking in and their skin is falling off...haha.

-Cody

Pretty bad joke to make. It's quite possible these people have been exposed to levels of radiation that could cause harm to them including damage to their skin and that they could eventually get doses that prove fatal.

And you have to remember that they are wearing protective gear but still have to do very demanding jobs like putting out large building fires right on top of the radiation sources.

exalted512

Well, I was just commenting on the pictures, when they're wearing what looks to be standard dust masks and their face isnt completely covered.

I understand its bad and can be lethal, but so can fires...that's why them make fire suits...

Is radiation something that just cant be easily repelled? or?
-Cody

JustinHEMI

cheddar wrote: »

So I guess this is just another thing to add to the long list of areas for possible improvements to make in the US after this is over and the event is looked at in depth...

You mean like open Yucca Mountain? I agree.

Justin

JustinHEMI

exalted512 wrote: »

Well, I was just commenting on the pictures, when they're wearing what looks to be standard dust masks and their face isnt completely covered.

I understand its bad and can be lethal, but so can fires...that's why them make fire suits...

Is radiation something that just cant be easily repelled? or?
-Cody

The energy of the gamma radiation fields they are in would require a lead suit so heavy, that no human could possibly wear it.

The suits they wear now, are to protect them from contamination.

Think of it like this...

Imagine a pile of dog crap. The crap itself is contamination, the radiation is the smell.

Justin

exalted512

JustinHEMI wrote: »

The energy of the gamma radiation fields they are in would require a lead suit so heavy, that no human could possibly wear it.

The suits they wear now, are to protect them from contamination.

Think of it like this...

Imagine a pile of dog crap. The crap itself is contamination, the radiation is the smell.

Justin

That's what I was figuring. Best of luck to those guys!
-Cody

cheddar

exalted512 wrote: »

Well, I was just commenting on the pictures, when they're wearing what looks to be standard dust masks and their face isnt completely covered.

The pictures of workers scanning people for radiation etc. are taken in evacuation areas far from the plant. The radiation levels at the plant are far worse and the staff who stayed are taking a big risk by remaining. I think it's safe to say that news pictures will not be of plant workers as a news crew would be very foolish to try and go there.

megasat16

A new grim of hope - new power lines are almost completely wired. So, a few more hours to get things under control and all the pumps may be up and running again. Let's hope new power lines will put this nuke problems at ease again.

danger boy

hey are dropping water from helicopters to try and cool the fuel rods.. I wish them the best of luck.. and they can get control of the situation ASAP.

megasat16

A slap on the wrist, it seems weather is cooling down and snow has fallen in parts of hardest hitting Japan where many of the surviving people are without food, water, shelter and enough clothes.

The cooling weather helps for the nuke situation but the people are in another turn of danger.

But I remember the Godzilla movies always show snow falling at the end and everything is back to normal again. Only if this snow means what's in the movies, there will be good news for the nuke reactors soon.

Danny Tse

Sure, the neighborhood got washed away by the tsunami....but 2 family dogs survived

megasat16

Oh yeah, now the fun begins between NRC and Tepco.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_japan_quake_spent_fuel

cheddar

Who to believe, our own NRC chairman or the power company...if the NRC chief is correct and there is no more water in the spent fuel pool, I'm assuming that's really bad...especially since whatever happens with the old core happens outside a primary containment structure.

megasat16

Believe neither at this time. It's speculation again and not facts. All I wanted to say is that finger pointing has now begun.

Justin, what are the chances of total meltdown and containment breach in case of the fuel rods total exposure without water?

cheddar

I believe the stored fuel rods are from a reactor that was shut down recently. Maybe november? The spent fuel pool is not in containment, so there is no containment to breach. And explosions and fires have heavily damaged the unit 4 building so it may be open to the outside.

stuwee

Finally, a site to donate to help the lost and injured pets, the link is in the story, the video is haunting. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/dog-in-japan-stays-by-the-side-of-its-ailing-friend-in-the-rubble

edit, bad link, sorry, why hasn't the Humane Society set something up yet? Maybe this story will put a fire under their butts.

nooshinjohn

stuwee wrote: »

Finally, a site to donate to help the lost and injured pets, the link is in the story, the video is haunting. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/dog-in-japan-stays-by-the-side-of-its-ailing-friend-in-the-rubble

edit, bad link, sorry, why hasn't the Humane Society set something up yet? Maybe this story will put a fire under their butts.

God bless the critters, but my help is going to human beings right now. Those with fur on their backs can fend for themselves until people have a warm bed, clothing on their backs, and clean food and water to drink. I do care about animals, so don't get me wrong, but to paraphrase an old sea addage, 'Women, children, and men first"...