Japan shook with 8.8 Quake and Hit By Tsunami

Sherardp

On standby with the Marines as we speak to go in for Humanitarian Relief guys. They're taking alot of our John Deere loaders and Dozers up there. I'll be there for contract support if they decide to call me in. Right now just on standby.

PrazVT

Good luck out there Sherard - stay safe.

Toolfan66

PrazVT wrote: »

Good luck out there Sherard - stay safe.

+1 stay safe!!!!

obieone

I was just reading that Sky news is blogging that the USS Ronald Reagan BG turned away from Japan's Nuke plant at the 100 mile mark due to radiation readings.
I hope to f**k this is just more hyperbole!

Sherardp

obieone wrote: »

I was just reading that Sky news is blogging that the USS Ronald Reagan BG turned away from Japan's Nuke plant at the 100 mile mark due to radiation readings.
I hope to f**k this is just more hyperbole!

They actually passed through it.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/mar/13/carrier-reagan-pilots-deliver-aid-japan/

disneyjoe7

Stay safe Sherard.

cheddar

obieone wrote: »

I was just reading that Sky news is blogging that the USS Ronald Reagan BG turned away from Japan's Nuke plant at the 100 mile mark due to radiation readings.
I hope to f**k this is just more hyperbole!

The plant has been leaking radiation into the air from all the venting, exploding going on. The aircraft carrier and its helicopters passed through the plume since the prevailing winds have been carrying it seaward. Sounds like it's equal to one months normal background radiation per hour exposure. Japan is very lucky the wind has been blowing the plume out to sea so far. It's not a direct reading from the Nuke plant itself. They're just relocating to steer clear from being down wind of the plume.

cheddar

...+1 on the stay safe Sherard...it's good that you and the marines can help out in a time like this...

cheddar

So Justin,

Here's a question. What happens when that plume hits something that can't move out of its way, like Alaska or the West Coast? It's already moved at least 100 mi.

Sherardp

Thanks for all the wishes, but like I said just on stand by. If I end there I'll definitely post some pics and let you all know what it's like.

Willow

I just found out my cousin and his wife are fine. They are in Tokyo and were there when it happened.

Erik Tracy

New stories are saying that Japan moved 8ft eastward as a result of the earthquake and the earth's rotation sped up by 1.6 microseconds :eek:

Dang....

cheddar

cheddar wrote: »

So Justin,

Here's a question. What happens when that plume hits something that can't move out of its way, like Alaska or the West Coast? It's already moved at least 100 mi.

Saw JustinHemi reading this thread and thought he'd answer this question. But he left without comment. So, anybody else know? I mean really know, not just guessing. It would be nice to know that this plume isn't a threat to the western United States...

bobman1235

Everything I've read so far says that as of now the plume isn't really a "threat" anyway, as in it's not an unsafe level of radiation (yet), so I wouldn't be that worried. Plus you have to imagine it would disperse quite a bit in the 4700 miles between Japan and the US. That's a lot more than 100 miles.

cheddar

I thought about these things too, just wish the reporting would be more specific on threats to the US from this particular disaster even if it's just to say there is nothing to worry about. Lots of stories about threats to the future of the US nuclear industry etc. Could it happen here, etc.

JustinHEMI

cheddar wrote: »

Saw JustinHemi reading this thread and thought he'd answer this question. But he left without comment. So, anybody else know? I mean really know, not just guessing. It would be nice to know that this plume isn't a threat to the western United States...

Sorry, I missed it before I surfed away, but I make my way back around prett reguarly.

Anyway, based on the reports I am reading, which I will link later (I am at work), but like someone said... it isn't "that bad."

Any sort of contamination is not good, of course, but compared to what would happen if the core was release to the atmosphere, it is negligable. I know that is a crappy answer, but it is what it is.

Someone also pointed out that it would likely be diluted before it gets to the USA, which is also true.

The ships did the prudent thing of getting out of the way because, hey, who wants contamination of any sort on them? I know the news makes it sound super bad, but that plume won't kill anyone.

Gosh, I am having a hard time trying not to say "it isn't a big deal" and diminish the seriousness of the situation, while maintaining the right level of respect for the seriousness of the situation. Know what I mean?

Working around this as a career, I am prone to think "Oh that ain't nothing." But, I try to remember the public who DOES NOT work around this all day long and what is nothing to me is certainly something to them.

I hope that makes sense. It IS a big deal.... but relatively speaking... it isn't. Clear as mud?

Justin

BlueFox

JustinHEMI wrote: »

Working around this as a career, I am prone to think "Oh that ain't nothing." But, I try to remember the public who DOES NOT work around this all day long and what is nothing to me is certainly something to them.

While true at the moment, this situation seems to be going from bad to worse. Perhaps it will turn out to be no worse than the current state. Then again, I have to wonder just how accurate the information being provided is. Is it accurate, or is the government just trying to not upset the population?

Anyway, I sure hope this is as bad as it gets.

JustinHEMI

BlueFox wrote: »

While true at the moment, this situation seems to be going from bad to worse. Perhaps it will turn out to be no worse than the current state. Then again, I have to wonder just how accurate the information being provided is. Is it accurate, or is the government just trying to not upset the population?

Anyway, I sure hope this is as bad as it gets.

Well personally, I haven't been listening to the news because their "experts" are stupid. For example, I overheard one Fox News "expert" saying that this radiation was mostly from nitrogen-16. He is a fool because N-16 radiation dies off within a minute after shutdown.

So yeah, lots of bad information going around.

My sources have been the fact based nuclear energy institute and TEPCO's own updates, which I linked earlier. I then use my knowledge of my plant, which is very similar to the Japanese plants, down to the same exact containment, to draw conclusions and refute bad information being put out.

I've also been using this to keep track of their systems. I didn't post this earlier, but here it is for future reference.

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news/2011/110314fukushima_event-status-1.pdf


Justin

PS In the paragraph you quoted, I was referring only to the plume. I do not think "that ain't a big deal" about the overall situation.

disneyjoe7

Sorry if this has been answered already, and maybe a stupid question... But it bugs me.

How is a power plant cooled by water sitting next to water, have a cooling problem?

JustinHEMI

Here is the latest update from the site I linked above.

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news/2011/110314fukushima_event-status-2.pdf

If you notice, the level of radiation they are detecting at the site border is 15 micro-sierverts/hr which is 1.5 mrem/hr. This is a VERY low level above background. Comparatively, you get about 300 mrem/yr from natural sources.

Justin

JustinHEMI

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Sorry if this has been answered already, and maybe a stupid question... But it bugs me.

How is a power plant cooled by water sitting next to water, have a cooling problem?

Well, I will attempt to keep it short and sweet, but as you have probably seen, sometimes I run at the fingers.

Anyway... putting the body of water near a power plant into the core is NOT a normal means of cooling. In order to achieve this, there are many system re-alignments that need to be done to permit the injection of the ocean, in this case. At my plant, to put the river into the core, would take 1-2 hours of prep time just to get systems lined up. During that time, if you have no other source of water going into the core, the level in the reactor continuously lowers and uncovers fuel. This is what happened here. While they were making preps to put the ocean into the core, they lost all other injection sources. All they could do at that point is wait, and pray, that they got sea water lined up quickly. As we now know, it wasn't quick enough as some fuel melted. Being the betting man that I am though, I am betting that most of the damage occured when the cold sea water was finally injected onto the extremely hot fuel.

So long story short, it isn't that easy to put the ocean into the core. Now that they have though, further fuel damage should be prevented.

Justin

cheddar

BlueFox wrote: »

While true at the moment, this situation seems to be going from bad to worse. Perhaps it will turn out to be no worse than the current state. Then again, I have to wonder just how accurate the information being provided is. Is it accurate, or is the government just trying to not upset the population?

Anyway, I sure hope this is as bad as it gets.

Seems like a predictable pattern is taking place. After the earthquake, all the reactors were shutdown. But 'shutting down' takes time as the nuclear reaction takes time to wind down. So the cores still need cooling during this time but the tsunami disabled backup generators needed for the cooling process after the primary power failed. So problems started to arise.

Rinse repeat cycle.

Core is partially uncovered, melting of fuel rods possible. Pump in sea water/boron as last ditch effort to stabilize the reactor, wrecking the reactor for future use. And vent pressure to the outside of the containment structure. Hydrogen gas causes big explosion destroying outside walls of the reactor building. But pressure drops, radiation levels decrease, and the reactor stabilizes. This has happened at two of the reactors at the fukushima plant 1. And a 3rd is now undergoing the last stages of the process.

At least that's how I understand it in non-technical jargon. And all the new 'revelations' are new reactors being added to the rinse repeat cycle.

megasat16

JustinHEMI wrote: »

Well, I will attempt to keep it short and sweet, but as you have probably seen, sometimes I run at the fingers.

Anyway... putting the body of water near a power plant into the core is NOT a normal means of cooling. In order to achieve this, there are many system re-alignments that need to be done to permit the injection of the ocean, in this case. At my plant, to put the river into the core, would take 1-2 hours of prep time just to get systems lined up. During that time, if you have no other source of water going into the core, the level in the reactor continuously lowers and uncovers fuel. This is what happened here. While they were making preps to put the ocean into the core, they lost all other injection sources. All they could do at that point is wait, and pray, that they got sea water lined up quickly. As we now know, it wasn't quick enough as some fuel melted. Being the betting man that I am though, I am betting that most of the damage occured when the cold sea water was finally injected onto the extremely hot fuel.

So long story short, it isn't that easy to put the ocean into the core. Now that they have though, further fuel damage should be prevented.

Justin

You forgot to say where is water pumping to and through what.

I am optimistic about the situation and I agreed the Japanese reactors can't go blown up like in Chernobyl (like exploding).

But it needs constant pumping of water (sea water) to cool and keep the temperature down, right? If they can't keep the reactor cool enough and pressure under control, they can have the primary containment field breached?

Also, the radiations can be in the water, air and soil around the reactors from keeping the reactors cooling since the overall cooling system is not fully functioning and tubes / pipes may be broken?

JustinHEMI

megasat16 wrote: »

You forgot to say where is water pumping to and through what.

I am optimistic about the situation and I agreed the Japanese reactors can't go blown up like in Chernobyl (like exploding).

But it needs constant pumping of water (sea water) to cool and keep the temperature down, right? If they can't keep the reactor cool enough and pressure under control, they can have the primary containment field breached?

Also, the radiations can be in the water, air and soil around the reactors from keeping the reactors cooling since the overall cooling system is not fully functioning and tubes / pipes may be broken?

Yes, they aren't out of the water yet, so to speak. A reactor like this needs a lot of cooling for a week or so after shut down before it "eases up." If they can't maintain sea water going in, game over. At that point, we have to hope that the decay heat in the fuel has decreased enough that once the reactor pools into the bottom of containment it doesn't a) melt through containment and b) flooding containment will keep the mass cool.

Your second paragraph is also accurate. Besides airborn contamination, there will be some on the water and on the ground. The radiation being measured is from all sources.

cheddar

It is a major bummer that as part of the rinse/repeat cycle above, the venting and exploding is releasing radiation into the environment. May be the lesser of two evils. But it's still and evil.

JustinHEMI

cheddar wrote: »

But 'shutting down' takes time as the nuclear reaction takes time to wind down.

Just a technical point, to help make us all better informed, but when the rods go in and the reactor shuts down, the actual fission in the reactor stops in seconds. We have laws requiring the process to be stopped in a certain amount of time.

The problem, which you accurately described after that sentence, is that even though the fission process has stopped, the reactor continues to generate vast amounts of heat. The reason being is the decay of the fission products which are highly radioactive and are very long lived. A used reactor core will generate heat essentially forever. However, the amount of heat generated decays away exponentially over time.

So, immediately after shutdown from 100%, a reactor will make about 7% heat even though no fission is occuring. This decays to about 1% after an hour and down from there. Still though, it is enough for a long enough time that active cooling is needed immedately and continuously.

Hope that makes sense.

Justin

JustinHEMI

cheddar wrote: »

It is a major bummer that as part of the rinse/repeat cycle above, the venting and exploding is releasing radiation into the environment. May be the lesser of two evils. But it's still and evil.

This is what myself and my collegues can't figure out... why are they blowing up these secondary containments? Based on our procedures, there is no reason for this.

But, we aren't there, so the debate continues.

Justin

megasat16

Yeah, the nuke reaction shuts down but we are now dealing with the latent heat (trapped energy in the fuel cells and there is just so much of them). And if we can't deal with the heat, the games over.

I just hope that more quakes and Tsunami won't take down the cooling power at this point.

jcandy

JustinHEMI wrote: »

This is what myself and my collegues can't figure out... why are they blowing up these secondary containments? Based on our procedures, there is no reason for this.

But, we aren't there, so the debate continues.

Your posts on this subject are excellent. Thanks alot.

fatchowmein

Thanks, Justin, for pulling back the curtains and giving us a peak sort to speak. Learned a lot today.

Prayers to those affected. Those photos and videos are heartbreaking.

Any news on how the supply of drinking water was affected?