hifi vs. pro audio.

jinjuku

TroyD wrote: »

Sigh. No, the original post was taken directly from a post about ABX testing. As for active crossovers, if you aren't using subs....and remember, we are in the 2ch forum...what's the benefit? (I'm asking this because I really don't know. Why would I introduce a variable into my signal path if I don't need it? I come down on the side of the more **** you add in the chain, the worse it's going to sound)

For starters your audio is going to go through components to get phase/alignment, notch filtering, x-over slope etc so the correct driver is playing the right pass band.

So the question is: What domain do you want to do that processing in? In the Speaker level analog? or in the line level / digital?

Passive crossovers are fixed in some ways like BSC. This is easily managed with an active crossover. Just an example.

More amp power also goes to the driver in an active setup. Generally speaking about 25% more.

TroyD wrote: »

Now we get to the REAL heart of the matter. You were boasting about your experience based on your live venues and A/V suites....but, now we are down to your experience with a couple of entry level amps. Which you have admitted you can hear the difference. You haven't REALLY heard higher end amps, yet you are passing judgement. See where your credibility is running thin here?

1. This was started in the 2 Channel forum by you as to not fork the ABX thread... It's a little disingenous in my opinion to go on about that. The heart of this thread didn't start in 2 Channel audio and I am not going to carry on that it is so.

I wasn't boasting about anything. I what I said was:
well this is where I most likely have a divergent path than most here. I will absolutely attribute that to doing pro-audio. Whether that be 20K watt of amplification at medium sized venue or putting in Crown D and PS series amplification in audio and video edit suites. Crown to this day I believe would still be making a line up for studio/home use if it weren't for the Harmon Group taking them over. There's a reason a DC 300A Series II/PS 400 still sells for $350 that is 20 years old. I participate here because I have several setups using Polk out there and view them as I do Crown or even Emotiva. They offer something above the average big box store that you can count as a reliable investment over the years.


It's just a value proposistion. Nothing less nothing more. I'm not the one throwing stones here.

TroyD wrote: »

So, again, you are making assertions on something that you haven't even heard? Preposterous. Lets see, just in my house, I've got Quads, Vandies, SDA's and Carver Amazings.....that I've actually heard and am familiar with. Do you SEE why I don't buy into your credibility?

If you talking about the Mission Statements I haven't made any assertions about them. Just a curious build that seem to have quite a following. I am looking at doing the new Dennis Murphy build also based on the SEAS ERX with Dayton 28a tweeter. Dennis is the guy behind the Salk Song Towers. Also I would like to build a pair of Natalie P's. Different strokes for different folks.

And in my house I have had ML, Legacy Whisper, PSB Stratus Gold/Silver, PSB Sychrony 1's. I'm not asking you to 'buy' a single thing.


I've also had ears on Classe, Conrad Johnson. It's NOT where I am willing to spend my funds. Simply put I haven't had ears on any single amp that has convinced me to be an 'AMP' person..

TroyD wrote: »

Your point was that you didn't think that anyone buying Polk speakers would be interested in these brands...which is false just by asking around the forum here. Your supposition being that they are too expensive for the speakers which is demonstrated to be untrue. So, no, you didn't say it, but the implication was crystal clear and, as it turns out, doesn't hold much water.

BDT

I would say the % of LSi owners out there, comparative to how many they have in their setup, that have lets say expensive (what they paid for out of the box) amplification is in the minority. Again I am not throwing rocks here... goosefabrah.

treitz3

If ever a forum needed proof of a troll, this thread is it.

I stopped reading at post #48.

Troy, nice intentions on the thread and I hope folks paid attention to ill advice. Ju-Ju needs to go. That is all, I'm out of this discussion. Not worth my time...

snow

halo71 wrote: »

Did he really say that?? :eek: I missed that post. lol

The key to learning about HiFi in general is to keep an open mind, I used to think my very first stereo setup was the **** it was an old used lower end Sony receiver and a pair of Bose 401's later I upgraded to a Sony DA5 ES receiver and a pair of JBL-L80T3's and I thought that was the ****

Wow was I wrong :biggrin:

Listen to some of these fellows who have spent many years and many thousands of dollars trying to achive audio nirvana and it will save you a lot of time and money.



REGARDS SNOW

Tour2ma

Painful thread...

Troy,
Good on ya for asking for some space to try to have a conversation. Got close once or twice, but in the end I fear you've simply found your new Dan... :eek:

Ted,
Don't go hatin' on dBx... If you're listening to classical vinyl w/o a dBx 3bx, 4bx or 5bx, you are not hearing what was played.

randomthoughttonooneinparticular,
Other than a couple country concert quickies at the Rodeo in the old Houston Astrodome (worst acoustics in recorded history (pun intended)), I'm trying hard to remember walking away from an amplified, live concert saying, "Damn, the SQ really sucked tonite."

TroyD

For starters your audio is going to go through components to get phase/alignment, notch filtering, x-over slope etc so the correct driver is playing the right pass band.

So the question is: What domain do you want to do that processing in? In the Speaker level analog? or in the line level / digital?

Passive crossovers are fixed in some ways like BSC. This is easily managed with an active crossover. Just an example.

More amp power also goes to the driver in an active setup. Generally speaking about 25% more

If you are saying bypass the crossovers in the speaker to DIY? Pfffffffft. One, my speakers don't have crossovers....second, I'll leave crossover design to the experts: speaker designers.

Three, why would I need more power to the driver? If it's not underpowered, what's the point other than the sake of it.

I would also say again, the less pure the signal path, ie, the more 'active' fooling with the signal, the greater the chance of **** it up and the farther away from fidelity you get. Plus, if we are talking the 'average guy' isn't this a bit much?

. This was started in the 2 Channel forum by you as to not fork the ABX thread... It's a little disingenous in my opinion to go on about that. The heart of this thread didn't start in 2 Channel audio and I am not going to carry on that it is so.

Uh, hold up a second, the ABX thread is, indeed, in the 2CH forum so it's not disingenuous of me at all.

It's just a value proposistion. Nothing less nothing more. I'm not the one throwing stones here.

No, actually, you aren't making that proposition. You were talking about crossovers....again, you aren't connecting any of the dots, you are just shotgun blasting a ton of random tidbits which don't have anything to do with each other.

Simply put I haven't had ears on any single amp that has convinced me to be an 'AMP' person..

Even in the flat earth crowd that is a pretty bold statement.

I would say the % of LSi owners out there, comparative to how many they have in their setup, that have lets say expensive (what they paid for out of the box) amplification is in the minority

You would say this...and back it up, how? If you use the forum as your sample, I think you'd be sorely mistaken.

You know, this could very easily be cleared up. Just explain to the crowd what your philosophy of assembling a rig is and why. From source to speaker.

BDT

TroyD

randomthoughttonooneinparticular,
Other than a couple country concert quickies in the old Houston Astrodome (worst acoustics in recorded history (pun intended)), I'm trying hard to remember walking away from an amplified, live concert saying, "Damn, the SQ really sucked tonite

I can think of a TON.

Now, I can name some UNamplified venues that sound pretty freaking awesome.

BDT

jinjuku

Face wrote: »

It's probably because no one else refers to them as Mission Statements but you: http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements.html

It's something that I have gleeped from other people. The link to the build thread and the actual speaker is in my sig...

All the poster had to do was wait for it look.

jinjuku

tkfoh wrote: »

OK, I read more than post on this forum. I haft to chime in here, I have been a professanal sound engineer for 26 years, I have Harmon { jbl, lexacon, crown, dbx, } as a sponser, hell I help with the proto type of the 4800 drive rack. I could call harmon tomorrow and have anything they make or have and have it shipped free to my house to keep as long as I needed it or untill they upgrade. If that gear sounded good at the house, why would I save every penny I make to buy Hi end Audio gear. If we are talking amps and drive racks { speaker management } they will not sound worth a **** as hi-fi goes, I have tried this all my life some have come close but are not refined for true hi fi. Yes I do have a few pairs of JBL studio monitors self powered class A, but they are near field and loose there **** 12 feet away. You can check what I am saying. Just google Dirk Durham {tkfoh} and read. sorry for the spelling glasses are in the truck. You find crown, qsc, peavey, in studios because of the high spl and you can pour a crown and coke in them and thay will keep going, with out shutting down a session and run 24 hours wide open in a closed cabnet with no air and no fan {noise}.

Ok Dirk:

For less than $1K total (amp, digital x-over, drivers and cabinet grade ply) what can I do with your high fi route that is going to do better for my sub setup?

I mean you are the pro so I am curious.

F1nut

jinjuku wrote: »

It's something that I have gleeped from other people.

Well, there's one thing that you seem to be good at.

VR3

I read this whole thread start to finish --

I have been selling Pro Gear now for 6 years.

The only way you could pull off having a pro amplifier in your system and it sounding -good- is if your system is so low resolution it can not reveal just how bad the pro amplifier really is. The only reason I say this is from personal experience.

I assembled a system for my buddy using a PE Receiver, Parasound amp, Def Tech towers - the rig rocks for what it is. If you throw that PE receiver in my rig at the front man it sounds horrible. My speakers easilly dispose of such garbage.

Active crossovers are actually pretty popular in hi fi -- but alot of the ones you see in the hi fi world are preprogrammed from the manufacture ---

I guess it would be good from a DIY stand point as you can change your xover points and so forth on the fly. I still would argue that using quality capacitors (Clarity MR, ESA etc) and quality resistors (Mills, Duelund) are just as good as an active crossover. But perhaps cheaper parts like ceramic resistors and bennic caps etc (stock parts) would be a downgrade from an active.

It sounds like to me like JuJu is more technical in his approach, but it also sounds like his gear can not expose the noise and crap an EQ introduces in his system. But he likes to have a flat response in room. There are several speaker designers that have said they tried to build a flat speaker then they started over and tried to make one that sounded good.

Moral of the story - dont talk to someone about great quality gear when they cant hear it or their gear wont let them. Doesnt matter if you hand him a Krell - if the speakers cant expose the advantage of that amplifier over a pro amp - then obviously its a lost cause.

halo71

Yeah I am not doubting what any of the more experienced guys say or the ones that have really high end gear. Not sure where you got that from. I was talking about JuJu's comparison of Polk speakers to Behringer speakers.:biggrin:

snow wrote: »

The key to learning about HiFi in general is to keep an open mind, I used to think my very first stereo setup was the **** it was an old used lower end Sony receiver and a pair of Bose 401's later I upgraded to a Sony DA5 ES receiver and a pair of JBL-L80T3's and I thought that was the ****

Wow was I wrong :biggrin:

Listen to some of these fellows who have spent many years and many thousands of dollars trying to achive audio nirvana and it will save you a lot of time and money.



REGARDS SNOW

snow

halo71 wrote: »

Yeah I am not doubting what any of the more experienced guys say or the ones that have really high end gear. Not sure where you got that from. I was talking about JuJu's comparison of Polk speakers to Behringer speakers.:biggrin:

Originally Posted by reeltrouble1
you sang the praises of your Behringer Speakers as an alternative not so long ago.

RT1

Did he really say that?? I missed that post. lol

I wasnt referring to your post it was directed at jinjuku :biggrin: In reference to his attempts at using pro gear for home use, the point I was trying to make was a lot of us have done the same things he is doing now and if he would only listen instead of arguing he could save a lot of time and money by skipping to the good stuff instead of going by trial and error. I know myself I have wasted a lot of money getting to where im at now.

REGARDS SNOW

halo71

ahhh......sorry. :biggrin:

Toolfan66

snow wrote: »

The key to learning about HiFi in general is to keep an open mind, I used to think my very first stereo setup was the **** it was an old used lower end Sony receiver and a pair of Bose 401's later I upgraded to a Sony DA5 ES receiver and a pair of JBL-L80T3's and I thought that was the ****

Wow was I wrong :biggrin:

Listen to some of these fellows who have spent many years and many thousands of dollars trying to achive audio nirvana and it will save you a lot of time and money.



REGARDS SNOW

I very much agree!!! Keep an open mind, and do your homework. So far it has worked for me..

jinjuku

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Active crossovers are actually pretty popular in hi fi -- but alot of the ones you see in the hi fi world are preprogrammed from the manufacture ---

Like the SMS-1. It's a popular active subwoofer management system. I chose the harder to go but I believe more flexible route.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

It sounds like to me like JuJu is more technical in his approach, but it also sounds like his gear can not expose the noise and crap an EQ introduces in his system. But he likes to have a flat response in room. There are several speaker designers that have said they tried to build a flat speaker then they started over and tried to make one that sounded good.

The DCX is only running on the subwoofer output. I have that defeated on the receiver. The HT setup is handled through Audyssey. *Yes I know this is the 2 channel forum.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Moral of the story - dont talk to someone about great quality gear when they cant hear it or their gear wont let them. Doesnt matter if you hand him a Krell - if the speakers cant expose the advantage of that amplifier over a pro amp - then obviously its a lost cause.

Obviously no ones experience at any other site than this will hold any sway, but here goes:

I picked up the 402d for the sake of curiosity. I can always flip it. This was due to members at AVSforum running the 402d on non other than the LSI 9's. And really likeing what it did for them.

I have some JBL ES90's for a temp 2.0 setup (laptop/dac/amp) I did a quick gain and spl match and pffft. Not any night/day difference. I am personally curious to see what my DIY build will do. Limiting factor could be the JBL's.

I would still like to know how to take a $1K budget for subs and do sonically any better than I have.

If D-sonic uses the Statements for their reference setup I figure why not give it a shot. Curt Cambells other designs seem well received. I will also most likely build a Jon Marsh and Dennis Murphy design. To each their own.

jinjuku

snow wrote: »

Originally Posted by reeltrouble1
you sang the praises of your Behringer Speakers as an alternative not so long ago.

BTW the Behringer craze started over at the PE techtalk forums...

Interesting read Linkwitz Orions beaten by Behringer.... what!!?

Their caption, not mine.

A choice quote from the thread:

The Behringer's constant directivity measured well apparently, even surprising Dr. Geddes

Face

jinjuku wrote: »

If D-sonic uses the Statements for their reference setup I figure why not give it a shot. Curt Cambells other designs seem well received. I will also most likely build a Jon Marsh and Dennis Murphy design. To each their own.

Jon Marsh is the man, but be prepared to spend big money on his crossovers alone.

Toolfan66

Face wrote: »

Jon Marsh is the man, but be prepared to spend big money on his crossovers alone.

Links???

VR3

You are in luck JuJu

Ive actually OWNED a pair of Behringer powered monitors... and GET OUT OF TOWN - They are the same model mentioned in that thread!???!

I know, insanity insanity.

I sat down and listened to them in a near field environment and was bedazzled by their wide staging in that arrangement.

I bought them and took them home to my humble abode. I kept them approximately two weeks before selling them on this very site. Outside of a studio application they are lifeless, boring, sterile - and ultimately dont hold a candle to a good set of speakers.

I will say in their price point they are ok - but to compare them to something like Orions (which I have not heard - but they use similar drivers to my speakers) has gotta be just silly.

Also I have ran a Crown XTi1000 pushing a set of Polk RT55, needless to say that lasted a good 5 minutes before my Odyssey Khartago (about the same price point) was plugged back up. Bright, brittle, blah.

All I am getting at -- I dont care what people think or their experiences I work around the ****. And most of it sounds like that very thing - ****.

jinjuku

Face wrote: »

Jon Marsh is the man, but be prepared to spend big money on his crossovers alone.

The Modula's X-Over are crazy expensive. I believe the Natalie-P's are a lower cost option from him.

Roman Bednarek also has a 2 and 2.5 way x-over for that MTM. That is one design were the X-overs would have to be external. You could build the same box and do like 5 different x-overs.

I don't believe Dennis Murphy has published his DIY TL using SEAS and either Dayton or Fountek Tweets but it is available at AH in a thread.

Face

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

Links???

He has simple builds from: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=36222
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321

To: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=36370
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33995

An example of one of his bigger crossovers: http://audioworx.virtualave.net/ModulaXtremeSchem-Altium-0411.PNG

vmaxer

Keiko wrote: »

Give it up, juju. Best thing for you to do now is tuck your tail between your legs and disappear. Forever!

Easy man, can't you see he is a legend in his own mind:eek:

jinjuku

dkg999 wrote: »

Wow, not sure he's that desperate I guess that's just how you roll there big dog!

And that pro-gear probably does sound good to the people on that other forum!

I dunno, he's been stalking me at other forums. Who can guess? In this day and age no means no.

Yep, it tends to sound good at AVS, AH, Hometheatershack...

You should run and tell Jim Holtz that he shouldn't run his Statements with an Emotiva amp while you're at it.

dkg999

Is Mr Holtz as desparate for attention as you are? Does he spend his time trolling audio forums crying out to fix the things that obviously went wrong in his life? Send me his email address and I will make sure to enlighten him as to how much better his system could sound? In fact if I'm in his neighborhood I'll bring a good Merlot and we can discuss in person.

BTW, does he own a tire company?

Face

Mr. Holtz is very down to earth and shouldn't have been brought into this thread.

dkg999

Face wrote: »

Mr. Holtz is very down to earth and shouldn't have been brought into this thread.

That's good to know! I'll let him know others had positive comments about him when I get ahold of him.

In Jr High that name dropping thing might have been accepted as a trump card in an argument. Hmmmm, not so much here.

dkg999

LoKeiko - get it right! He installed the sound system for mastering the audio for Deliverance.

Systems

If there is anyway, anyway at all to leave Ned Beatty out of this I would greatly appreciate it!
He may squeal like a pig, but I'm just saying.......:biggrin:

SolidSqual

Damnit this thread is really disappointing. When it began I was hoping to finally read and participate in a dialogue discussing the tension between pro audio and hifi. Actually, it would have been nice to discuss the merits of pro mastering gear specifically. What's the point of trolling for trolls like juju?

mantis

cnh wrote: »

Don't we also need to distinguish Pro gear that is targeted for LIVE performances from Pro-Studio recording/mastering gear? Studios, after all, are smaller rooms that are acoustically treated and--to an extent, can be replicated in some rooms--the main difference being the use of the Near-field Monitor....which can/has been modified for home use...as has been noted in the B&W example...and also, in the past by JBL, Yamaha, Dynaudio, and others who make such monitors and also produce a passive Home speaker model?

cnh

This is the most intelligent thing I have read so far in this thread( I'm on page 2).