hifi vs. pro audio.

jinjuku

TroyD wrote: »

Still waiting, patiently, I might add.

Is that it? That a Crown amp is equivalent to and Adcom or Parasound? Is that the ergo sum of your premise?

BDT

What do you want? I have owned the HCA1000A for more than a year, I have had the 402d for about a month or so and neither is spanking each other. Not in seperation, not in soundstage, field depth, control. It is simply not night and day to me.

The Parasound is a quieter amp. But for me that does not make an OMG moment. You have to get your ear up to the speaker to notice the difference that is there. From seated position? Neither have been fatigue inducing.

reeltrouble1

Odyssey has a 5000 amp? Belles 5000? more lack of credible information, you should google faster. Why not include Parasound since you want to hold your pro-gear as the only example of an amplifier for your crown comparison their JC-1 actually is a high end amp used with Polk Speakers....do you even know by whom?

Our collective experience tells us Polk Speakers are so well designed and musical that hi-end gear makes them sing very nicely...of course you dont use Polk, you sang the praises of your Behringer Speakers as an alternative not so long ago.

So now we are back to HT which has nothing to do with music reproduction...honestly, your grasping at straws.

RT1

TroyD

In a nutshell I am saying that I have used Crown Macrotech in SR and D and PS in the studio. If people would pause for a moment and realize that I never said anything was the be all end all this would be a much more condusive conversation.

False. Black Bear.

I don't even have to dig into the archives to refute this. I'll take my original post where you allude to this divergent path. So, I'm asking you about your divergent paths. What is your divergent path....and why is it at least as good as hifi. Simple question. I'm simply asking you to expound on your statement. If you need me to requote, I certainly can do that...but as I said, just go back and reread your words that I conveniently quoted in the first post.

Active x-overs are the bomb compared to passives. Using something like a DCX to integrate subs into an HT environment has a ton of upswing. If you don't want to agree than that is fine. Just my opinion. You use what you want.

First, we are in the 2ch forum, not talking about HT. You are switching subjects. Again, your divergent path.....not talking about the use of active x-overs and integrating subs. We are talking about your divergent path in the realm of 2channel. To refresh your memory, we were originally talking in terms of ABX and how we couldn't tell the difference. Again, the floor is yours.

We are on a forum where the manufacturers most expensive product is $2600 for the pair (LSi 25's on Amazon $1279 per). So I most likely won't be speaking much to $5000 Classe, Belles, Odyssey, Monarchy, etc...

Again, False. We are talking 2ch. Down the rabbit hole...and no one here is constrained by brand. You certainly aren't. More to the point, I think the original topic was amplification.

Again, you were saying that your divergent path, in terms of chasing audio farther down the rabbit hole is most likely influenced by your extensive installation of your preffered brands of gear in live venues and A/V recording suites.

That's your premise, I'm simply asking you to support/defend. This doesn't seem like an unreasonable request.

Also, Classe, Belles (not sure), Odyessey....you can find these brands south of 1K all day long on the used market.

BDT

Face

jinjuku wrote: »

2.0 Speakers: Mission Statements ~$1000 in parts total (drivers, x-overs, MDF)

Have you heard a pair yet?

reeltrouble1

jinjuku wrote: »

Then you don't know how to use your gear properly. I have no compressor/limiter/expander/gate function in use. It's xover and a single PEQ.

Thought you said you knew about pro-gear sorry I will try to simplify a bit.

The audience digs the sound, as in live sound.

An equalizer here you go again, your trying to make pork loin out of the sows ear...you still have not presented a pro-system...instead your wriggling and try to be somebody, you know we know.

You know I recall all your posts about how getting better gear was a waste, now you hold up the same companies as something you wont address....more backpeddling.

RT1

TroyD

So, the ergo sum of your argument is that your pro amp is a little noisier than your Parasound? The whole crux of your assertion?

As for mixing....the point that Tedwick is making is that for our purposes...we aren't altering the sound. It's playback. We aren't remixing the mix.

BDt

jinjuku

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Odyssey has a 5000 amp? Belles 5000? more lack of credible information, you should google faster. Why not include Parasound since you want to hold your pro-gear as the only example of an amplifier for your crown comparison their JC-1 actually is a high end amp used with Polk Speakers....do you even know by whom?

Our collective experience tells us Polk Speakers are so well designed and musical that hi-end gear makes them sing very nicely...of course you dont use Polk, you sang the praises of your Behringer Speakers as an alternative not so long ago.

So now we are back to HT which has nothing to do with music reproduction...honestly, your grasping at straws.

RT1

I wasn't meaning to allude to $5000 for all those makes:rolleyes: My point was that given the average person out there that is going to purchase some Polk speakers, I don't know if the majority of them are going to be interested in dropping coin on amplification that cost them as much or more than their speakers.

The Behringers that I spoke of (the 2031P) were directly put up against a pair of the TSi 100's (both ~ same cost). The 2031P easily outdistanced the 100's. Better depth and sound stage easily.

cnh

Here's a classe amp that was for sale on this site....for 400?

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110092&highlight=classe

Admittedly, not the highest end classe...but a nice amp nonetheless?

cnh

TroyD

The Parasound is a quieter amp. But for me that does not make an OMG moment

Now we are getting somewhere. Now, I will tell you that it's my experience that in hifi, I've had few, OMG, moments. I've had them, but they are the exception.

The farther you go down the rabbit hole, the differences are more subtle and incremental. A little bit here, a little bit there. Now, if you think that, well, because I don't hear a night and day difference that my journey is over, bully for you. However, there are those that continue down the rabbit hole chasing the incremental improvements. You can say you don't hear them. You can say that the benfit doesn't merit the cost, however, those are personal arguments that you are in no position to push off on anyone else.

Rather, your divergent path is centered around your choice of gear is indistinguishable from hifi gear.....which you just admitted wasn't true, BTW. You just admitted you could hear the difference.

BDT

reeltrouble1

fact is many members are using quality amplification with their Polk stereo speakers. Not to mention a host of other brands. So we are back to Beringher now as better than Polk.....hardly, the design function alone...I will take the home speaker company you knock yourself out with the pro-sound we do everything for nothing company.

RT1

TroyD

..double post, sorry.

TroyD

jinjuku wrote: »

I wasn't meaning to allude to $5000 for all those makes:rolleyes: My point was that given the average person out there that is going to purchase some Polk speakers, I don't know if the majority of them are going to be interested in dropping coin on amplification that cost them as much or more than their speakers.

The Behringers that I spoke of (the 2031P) were directly put up against a pair of the TSi 100's (both ~ same cost). The 2031P easily outdistanced the 100's. Better depth and sound stage easily.

I'm going to ask my esteemed friends to quit adding variable to the argument and let's focus on my questions...just induldge me for a moment.

Now, I haven't heard the Behringers nor have I heard the TSi100's....we had a pair of TSi's at my PF last year. Solid performers...but, designed for HT. I'm willing to bet though, if you did any sort of test on this, you would be solidly in the minority opinion.

BDT

reeltrouble1

have at it my good man.

RT1

jinjuku

TroyD wrote: »

I don't even have to dig into the archives to refute this. I'll take my original post where you allude to this divergent path. So, I'm asking you about your divergent paths. What is your divergent path....and why is it at least as good as hifi. Simple question. I'm simply asking you to expound on your statement. If you need me to requote, I certainly can do that...but as I said, just go back and reread your words that I conveniently quoted in the first post.

LOL, a divergent path IS using an active speaker management system and pro-amp (DCX 2496 and EP 2500) What don't you understand about this? I would break out the crayolas if I thought it would do any good. This should be the obvious point I was making earlier

TroyD wrote: »

First, we are in the 2ch forum, not talking about HT. You are switching subjects. Again, your divergent path.....not talking about the use of active x-overs and integrating subs. We are talking about your divergent path in the realm of 2channel. To refresh your memory, we were originally talking in terms of ABX and how we couldn't tell the difference. Again, the floor is yours.

I am talking about AUDIO. I don't care if it is 2 channel or 5, or 7 channel. You keep bringing up 2 channel audio like it is some form of impervious shield to all things of poor audio.

TroyD wrote: »

Again, you were saying that your divergent path, in terms of chasing audio farther down the rabbit hole is most likely influenced by your extensive installation of your preferred brands of gear in live venues and A/V recording suites.

That's your premise, I'm simply asking you to support/defend. This doesn't seem like an unreasonable request.

I have a used Parasound HCA 1000A that was $200, I have a Crown XLS 402D that was $200 new. Neither one is wiping the floor with another. I also wouldn't mind hearing a Crown Studio Reference 1 (about $1500 on the used market) vs Krell, Classe, Parasound JC-1, Belles. I personally think it would be a fun way to spend an afternoon. But when something like that is mentioned certain people tend to get themselves worked into a tizzy.

TroyD wrote: »

Also, Classe, Belles (not sure), Odyessey....you can find these brands south of 1K all day long on the used market.

BDT

I am in 100% agreement with you there. Never said other wise
I am a huge fan of used equipement. Some aren't

Still waiting on your thoughts on active speaker management vs passive cross overs.

I am building the Mission Statements on reputation alone. Some times you have to be willing to make the leap. Be interesting to hear your $1500 setup against what I am putting together. This is meant in the most honest of ways I can convey. Just from a standpoint of curiosity.

jinjuku

cnh wrote: »

Here's a classe amp that was for sale on this site....for 400?

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110092&highlight=classe

Admittedly, not the highest end classe...but a nice amp nonetheless?

cnh

I saw that thread and was tempted...

F1nut

jinjuku wrote: »

Again you guys are the ones wanting to have a 100% disrespectful dialog. It seems easier for you to make fun of, call names, post juvenile pics etc... instead of having a 'conversation'. Again way to wrapped up around the axle.

Hello....

jinjuku wrote: »

Well on the whole 'packing issue' I will have to defer to you since you are resident expert on fudge packing.

jinjuku

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Thought you said you knew about pro-gear sorry I will try to simplify a bit.

The audience digs the sound, as in live sound.

An equalizer here you go again, your trying to make pork loin out of the sows ear...you still have not presented a pro-system...instead your wriggling and try to be somebody, you know we know.

You know I recall all your posts about how getting better gear was a waste, now you hold up the same companies as something you wont address....more backpeddling.

RT1

I do...

1. I use one band of PEQ to correct a rise about 57 hz (some weird room mode I couldn't get rid of due to placement restrictions)

2. I use 2 x-over points for HP / LP. I have sealed subs so I don't need to mess with any protection filters

3. I use a 2nd preset when I am in the mood for music (this basically a change in x-over points).

4. I let the DCX auto align feature set my phase. Which is nice because I am not limited to 0 or 180.

I am not using nearly all the potential of the DCX becuase it's not needed. It was better than two seperate peices (RTA, X-Over). Why don't you ask Hoosier here how he likes his Behringer based sub setup?

jinjuku

F1nut wrote: »

Hello....

Hey F1, why don't quote your message in the OTHER thread that this is a reply to?

F1nut wrote: »

Let's see, bad teeth, nose full of boogers......yeah, I think it's a safe bet to say that your lack of personal hygiene means your ears are packed as well. :rolleyes:

Keep it in the Inwall wire thread. No reason to come here trolling and crapping up this thread.

F1nut

The documented fact that you have the personal hygiene of a troll has already been mentioned in this thread by someone else.

TroyD

LOL, a divergent path IS using an active speaker management system and pro-amp (DCX 2496 and EP 2500) What don't you understand about this? I would break out the crayolas if I thought it would do any good. This should be the obvious point I was making earlier

Sigh. No, the original post was taken directly from a post about ABX testing. As for active crossovers, if you aren't using subs....and remember, we are in the 2ch forum...what's the benefit? (I'm asking this because I really don't know. Why would I introduce a variable into my signal path if I don't need it? I come down on the side of the more **** you add in the chain, the worse it's going to sound)

I am talking about AUDIO. I don't care if it is 2 channel or 5, or 7 channel. You keep bringing up 2 channel audio like it is some form of impervious shield to all things of poor audio.

I'm talking about 2ch stereo (that's what forum we are in, right?) Surround? DIFFERENT ball of wax...which, IMO, doesn't help your case because I've heard all sorts of 'surround' matrices, and they are all a version of ****. The best being, Dynaco Quadaptor....passive matrix.

I have a used Parasound HCA 1000A that was $200, I have a Crown XLS 402D that was $200 new. Neither one is wiping the floor with another. I also wouldn't mind hearing a Crown Studio Reference 1 (about $1500 on the used market) vs Krell, Classe, Parasound JC-1, Belles. I personally think it would be a fun way to spend an afternoon. But when something like that is mentioned certain people tend to get themselves worked into a tizzy.

Now we get to the REAL heart of the matter. You were boasting about your experience based on your live venues and A/V suites....but, now we are down to your experience with a couple of entry level amps. Which you have admitted you can hear the difference. You haven't REALLY heard higher end amps, yet you are passing judgement. See where your credibility is running thin here?

Still waiting on your thoughts on active speaker management vs passive cross overs.

Here are my thoughts. I don't care. For my applications, it's totally irrelevant. Why do I need it?

I am building the Mission Statements on reputation alone. Some times you have to be willing to make the leap. Be interesting to hear your $1500 setup against what I am putting together. This is meant in the most honest of ways I can convey. Just from a standpoint of curiosity.

So, again, you are making assertions on something that you haven't even heard? Preposterous. Lets see, just in my house, I've got Quads, Vandies, SDA's and Carver Amazings.....that I've actually heard and am familiar with. Do you SEE why I don't buy into your credibility?

I am in 100% agreement with you there. Never said other wise

Your point was that you didn't think that anyone buying Polk speakers would be interested in these brands...which is false just by asking around the forum here. Your supposition being that they are too expensive for the speakers which is demonstrated to be untrue. So, no, you didn't say it, but the implication was crystal clear and, as it turns out, doesn't hold much water.

BDT

snow

jinjuku wrote: »

LOL, a divergent path IS using an active speaker management system and pro-amp (DCX 2496 and EP 2500) What don't you understand about this? I would break out the crayolas if I thought it would do any good. This should be the obvious point I was making earlier



I am talking about AUDIO. I don't care if it is 2 channel or 5, or 7 channel. You keep bringing up 2 channel audio like it is some form of impervious shield to all things of poor audio.




I have a used Parasound HCA 1000A that was $200, I have a Crown XLS 402D that was $200 new. Neither one is wiping the floor with another. I also wouldn't mind hearing a Crown Studio Reference 1 (about $1500 on the used market) vs Krell, Classe, Parasound JC-1, Belles. I personally think it would be a fun way to spend an afternoon. But when something like that is mentioned certain people tend to get themselves worked into a tizzy.



I am in 100% agreement with you there. Never said other wise
I am a huge fan of used equipement. Some aren't

Still waiting on your thoughts on active speaker management vs passive cross overs.

I am building the Mission Statements on reputation alone. Some times you have to be willing to make the leap. Be interesting to hear your $1500 setup against what I am putting together. This is meant in the most honest of ways I can convey. Just from a standpoint of curiosity.

The Crown studio reference sucks for sound quality period, compared to almost anything else. I haved owned many Mission speakers and while not being awful they in no way compare to polks previous or current TOTL offerings sorry but thats the truth.

I have heard one pro amp that actually compared to better HIFI amps and that was the Altec 9440A amp it costs a staggering 5k in 1976 though.

As a rule your wasting your time attempting to get pro gear to sound as good as better quality home gear.



REGARDS SNOW

TroyD

Ok, and I'm tiring of this so I'm going to just toss this out because we'll get there eventually. I'm not going to quote, but I assure you the statements are there.

On the one hand, jinjuku is talking about the 'average person' buying Polk speakers and what he assumes they want.

On the other, he's talking about active crossovers and, what I assume to be, room correction via equalization.

Ok, I'm not even going to get into the equalizer in the chain as a device in and of itself. Nor am I going to talk about signal purity....although it's begging to be addressed.

What I'm getting as it he's using two separate issues and he can't connect the dots. The 'average person' can't program a DVD player and you want to burden him with a equalizer to program for room correction? False. It makes no sense.

The point here, in summation is that there is no coherent alternative here. Jinjuku is saying a lot of things but he isn't (and I suspect, can't) provide a coherent and logical thought on his beliefs. That's it. I mean, you can SAY what you want....but when you can't even support your own claims in a logical or coherent fashion, why should any credibility be attributed?

Again, I'm not being insulting....I've laid out very plain questions to statements made and there has been not a shred of logical counter debate offered.

BDT

jinjuku

snow wrote: »

I haved owned many Mission speakers and while not being awful they in no way compare to polks previous or current TOTL offerings sorry but thats the truth.

Sigh:rolleyes: If what you just said wasn't so sad it would be funny. It's clear you don't know what is being spoken about.

F1nut

jinjuku wrote: »

Sigh:rolleyes: If what you just said wasn't so sad it would be funny. It's clear you don't know what is being spoken about.

You need a better memory.

juju wrote:

I am building the Mission Statements on reputation alone.

tkfoh

OK, I read more than post on this forum. I haft to chime in here, I have been a professanal sound engineer for 26 years, I have Harmon { jbl, lexacon, crown, dbx, } as a sponser, hell I help with the proto type of the 4800 drive rack. I could call harmon tomorrow and have anything they make or have and have it shipped free to my house to keep as long as I needed it or untill they upgrade. If that gear sounded good at the house, why would I save every penny I make to buy Hi end Audio gear. If we are talking amps and drive racks { speaker management } they will not sound worth a **** as hi-fi goes, I have tried this all my life some have come close but are not refined for true hi fi. Yes I do have a few pairs of JBL studio monitors self powered class A, but they are near field and loose there **** 12 feet away. You can check what I am saying. Just google Dirk Durham {tkfoh} and read. sorry for the spelling glasses are in the truck. You find crown, qsc, peavey, in studios because of the high spl and you can pour a crown and coke in them and thay will keep going, with out shutting down a session and run 24 hours wide open in a closed cabnet with no air and no fan {noise}.

TroyD

tkfoh wrote: »

OK, I read more than post on this forum. I haft to chime in here, I have been a professanal sound engineer for 26 years, I have Harmon { jbl, lexacon, crown, dbx, } as a sponser, hell I help with the proto type of the 4800 drive rack. I could call harmon tomorrow and have anything they make or have and have it shipped free to my house to keep as long as I needed it or untill they upgrade. If that gear sounded good at the house, why would I save every penny I make to buy Hi end Audio gear. If we are talking amps and drive racks { speaker management } they will not sound worth a **** as hi-fi goes, I have tried this all my life some have come close but are not refined for true hi fi. Yes I do have a few pairs of JBL studio monitors self powered class A, but they are near field and loose there **** 12 feet away. You can check what I am saying. Just google Dirk Durham {tkfoh} and read. sorry for the spelling glasses are in the truck. You find crown, qsc, peavey, in studios because of the high spl and you can pour a crown and coke in them and thay will keep going, with out shutting down a session and run 24 hours wide open in a closed cabnet with no air and no fan {noise}.

4 pages and we finally get the money shot.

Class dismissed!

BDT

tonyb

Amen to that.

I'm sure JuJu beads will come back with an off topic response.

snow

jinjuku wrote: »

Sigh:rolleyes: If what you just said wasn't so sad it would be funny. It's clear you don't know what is being spoken about.

Well maybe you could enlighten me on what it was that I said that was incorrect. From what I read you said you were building a pair of Mission brand statement speakers correct?

Having owned at least 10 pair of Mission brand speakers all the way from the cheaper bookshelfs up to large floor standers, I belive I speak from a little personal experience when I say they simply dont compare soundwise to Polks TOTL offerings if they did I would still own them.



REGARDS SNOW

halo71

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

you sang the praises of your Behringer Speakers as an alternative not so long ago.

RT1

Did he really say that?? :eek: I missed that post. lol

Face

jinjuku wrote: »

Sigh:rolleyes: If what you just said wasn't so sad it would be funny. It's clear you don't know what is being spoken about.

It's probably because no one else refers to them as Mission Statements but you: http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements.html