hifi vs. pro audio.

Toolfan66

Don't mind me Just Lurking!!!

FTGV

Wasn't the highly popular Benchmark DAC1 originally designed as a pro product?

SolidSqual

Manley Labs, Prism, Digital Audio Denmark (DAD), Bryston and MHLabs are all pro manufacturers with gear that sounds amazing in consumer or pro applications. Nothing made by Crown IMO is acceptable for what we are talking about. The manufacturers above aren't focusing on producing walls of sound, they share the same concerns as any HiFi manufacturer.

Check out this review of the Prism Orpheus from 10Audio. You'll notice pro gear is often more difficult to implement in a home system than its consumer counterparts, but when done right, the results can be extraordinary. Fortunately, my Prism Orpheus is integrated with the SpatialHD Software (Modded Pure Vinyl) and iTunes. For me the Orpheus was plug n' play thanks to engineering directed towards a consumer market.

Below is the 10Audio article. To add some more cannon fodder to this thread I'll paste these quotations from the review:

My reference phono stage is the excellent Manley Steelhead, an older version 1 unit which I purchased from EveAnna Manley (thank you again!) and have thoroughly enjoyed listening to for a couple of years. The first thing I noticed about the Orpheus was how similar it sounds to the vacuum tube Steelhead. Sweet, detailed, and 3-dimensional.

Technology is moving forward continuously and it is certain that the overall performance of the Orpheus will be bettered, and sooner rather than later. At this time, I know of nothing else in the marketplace that can be considered as competition. The Prism Orpheus Digital Interface offers LP Replacement Quality™ sound and earns 10 Audio's highest rating.

http://www.10audio.com/prism_orpheus.htm

markmarc

This debate always cracks me up, the design goals of pro and home audio are completely different. Pro gear (not the high end pro gear mentioned by Solid Squal) is designed to handle the physical abuse of constant movement and poor air flow. Plus, it's designed to be played at high decibels. 95% of such gear is bought for live music scene which means high volume output. Studios buy such gear because its put into a tight cabinet with other electronics and immense heat and no air movement, it's all about being able to operate continuously.

Quality, home gear is designed to produce the subtle nuances of music. By nature it can fill a home space, but put it in a bar with crowd noise, etc, its capabilities are lost. Home amplification uses parts made with tighter measurement tolerances, but needs space in order to keep such parts running within desired levels.

For all those pro audio fans who argue that measurements don't lie, they forget that numbers only tell half the story. Amplifiers of the same build style (tubes, SS, chip) have quite different auditory signatures. Those that say BS, IMHO and experience have very little honest training in what to listen for, and have budget gear that allows for precious little defining resolution.

In the end the best comparison I can give is that of Adam Sandler in Happy Gilmore at the beginning of the movie where he can drive it 350 yards, but has no clue of the touch required to putt with any ability. That is what pro amps are like.

jinjuku

Face wrote: »

I don't see any Crown here.

I didn't see an batteries acting as a linear power supply their either. Doesn't diminish their importance. Or are batteries just for toys?

TroyD

WTF has that got to do with YOUR original premise? Can you justify it or are you going to just continue to shotgun stuff out in hopes of finding something that will stick?

Let's talk about your assertion that pro gear is a better alternative to hifi gear as one goes 'further down the rabbit hole'.

Let's discuss your live venues. Do tell....or let's discuss your install at General Tire and how it would compare to Abbey Roads studio.

BDT

cnh

Don't we also need to distinguish Pro gear that is targeted for LIVE performances from Pro-Studio recording/mastering gear? Studios, after all, are smaller rooms that are acoustically treated and--to an extent, can be replicated in some rooms--the main difference being the use of the Near-field Monitor....which can/has been modified for home use...as has been noted in the B&W example...and also, in the past by JBL, Yamaha, Dynaudio, and others who make such monitors and also produce a passive Home speaker model?

cnh

hearingimpared

I used several Crown amps in the '80s and tried to force myself to like them due their high power outputs and the rage my "audiophile" friends who back them were extolling the virtues of Crowns. I couldn't get used to the noise and flat wall of sound. I tried I really did but they were out of my system in six months and I went back to HiFi gear and was happy again.

BTW that Parasound HCA 1000A is no slouch. It had a beautiful high midrange and treble presentation when used to power the tweeters of my SRS 1.2TL but there are far, far better amps out there so using THAT Parasound as a comparison as "not spanking" the Crown doesn't surprise me.

Juju, answer the question please and stop tap dancing around it. Here is you opportunity to finally prove you "Mission Statement" to be one to be taken seriously.

heiney9

TroyD wrote: »

WTF has that got to do with YOUR original premise? Can you justify it or are you going to just continue to shotgun stuff out in hopes of finding something that will stick?

Let's talk about your assertion that pro gear is a better alternative to hifi gear as one goes 'further down the rabbit hole'.

Let's discuss your live venues. Do tell....or let's discuss your install at General Tire and how it would compare to Abbey Roads studio.

BDT

Troy, Juju is a borderline whack job and constantly derails his own posts. When he can't win, he just pulls stuff out of thin air (like the above) which has nothing to do with the original discussion to completely derail the initial linear thought process the rest of us non-whack jobs use to logically construct a discussion.

H9

reeltrouble1

well he used the word linear of course this is just one very small part and one dimensional as applied to an audio signal.....he cant answer because their is no answer...the gear is specialized to its function...they are systems and by definition a system is a collection of interdependant parts as such each piece is no more important than the other.

no matter how much paint and pretty you put on a piece of junk in the end the best you have is pretty junk

RT1

shack

cnh wrote:

Don't we also need to distinguish Pro gear that is targeted for LIVE performances from Pro-Studio recording/mastering gear? Studios, after all, are smaller rooms that are acoustically treated and--to an extent, can be replicated in some rooms--the main difference being the use of the Near-field Monitor....which can/has been modified for home use...as has been noted in the B&W example...and also, in the past by JBL, Yamaha and others who make such monitors and also produce a passive Home speaker model?

cnh

Unlike what may have been the case many years ago...the so call nearfield studio monitors are basically the same as any consumer bookshelf/monitor speaker. As with anything you can there are different levels depending on how much one is willing to spend...but the technolgy and performance are esentially the same.

TroyD

Matter of fact, just as a homage....I'm listening to Abbey Road.


BDT

TroyD

shack wrote: »

Unlike what may have been the case many years ago...the so call nearfield studio monitors are basically the same as any consumer bookshelf/monitor speaker.

Bingo.

BDT

reeltrouble1

yep ShackDaddy belts it out of the park.

RT1

jinjuku

TroyD wrote: »

WTF has that got to do with YOUR original premise? Can you justify it or are you going to just continue to shotgun stuff out in hopes of finding something that will stick?

?? Not sure what you are talking about...

TroyD wrote: »

Let's talk about your assertion that pro gear is a better alternative to hifi gear as one goes 'further down the rabbit hole'.

I said that?

TroyD wrote: »

or let's discuss your install at General Tire and how it would compare to Abbey Roads studio.

BDT

I am sure that Skywalker Sound / Telarc / Abbey Roads are by far better studios. I was only making a point that a pro-audio amps have been installed in professional edit suites (not live venues).

I seem to be almost the only one here not getting up in a lather over it.

There are a lot of pro-audio brands that are in studios through out the world that you won't find at an home AV retailer. You guys need to relax.

cnh

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

yep ShackDaddy belts it out of the park.

RT1

And it makes perfect sense! Thanks for the clarification.

cnh

heiney9

I've renamed his inept discussion skills as the "JuJu Effect".

H9

cnh

jinjuku wrote: »

?? Not sure what you are talking about...




I said that?


There are a lot of pro-audio brands that are in studios through out the world that you won't find at an home AV retailer. You guys need to relax.

What is this supposed to mean?

cnh

TroyD

For the record, I'm not in a lather at all...nor am I being belligerent. You are making statements, and I'd like you to support and defend them.

Lets start with this.

Now if you are that intermediate user looking to chase the rabbit further down the hole, well this is where I most likely have a divergent path than most here. I will absolutely attribute that to doing pro-audio. Whether that be 20K watt of amplification at medium sized venue or putting in Crown D and PS series amplification in audio and video edit suites

Following that, if you have a divergent path, chasing the rabbit further down the hole....let's hear it. Assuming your path is pro audio....it's either got to either be better performance or it's got to be a cheaper, but suitable alternative. I maintain that while it's subjective to an extent, neither case holds much water.

?? Not sure what you are talking about...

Let me clarify....you are extolling the virtues of your studio setups.

I'm asking you to provide the name of a quality studio, that produces hifi quality recordings that uses your gear. I mention Abbey Roads, which uses B&W/Classe....and you comment on batteries and power supplies which has NOTHING to do with it.

So, back on track. Studios and Pro gear. Let's discuss. I will grant you there are a lot of places that use pro gear in thier 'studios'...in fact, for our VTC's we have such a setup....and I'll grant that there are a lot of them. Quantity is not the issue, we are discussing QUALITY.

Clear enough? Ok, the floor is yours.


BDT

jinjuku

cnh wrote: »

What is this supposed to mean?

cnh

It means you won't normally find something like a DBX drive rack in a Home AV retailer.

Doesn't mean a home setup can't benefit from something like actively managed speaker as example.

There was another thread here about high end capacitors making a sonic difference in the cross over of a speaker. The pro-audio side of me says: Why not use an active crossover and bi|tri amp the setup? There are so many benefits including getting more amp power to the driver.

Again you guys are the ones wanting to have a 100% disrespectful dialog. It seems easier for you to make fun of, call names, post juvenile pics etc... instead of having a 'conversation'. Again way to wrapped up around the axle.

reeltrouble1

this from the fellow who has built his own internet Santeria Homage to himself and his posts.

stop babbaling. You still have not even attempted to list your budget pro-sound system to compete with any sort of hi-fi sound...mid-fi sound...or even lo-fi sound.

what is the Musicians Friend website down?

RT1

Systems

Don't we also need to distinguish Pro gear that is targeted for LIVE performances from Pro-Studio recording/mastering gear?

Absolutely!
Studio gear would could sound great in a home system.
SR not so much.
But if you consider the design differences, a $250,000 ubber accurate home system would not sound that good in a stadium either.
Most SR systems (FOH included) combine all 3 industries in creating great sound.
Any good sound reinforcement system uses studio processors, dig processors, studio preamps either on the board or outboard.
Funny thing, your home system is reproducing sound recorded most likely on some NS-10's, which sound horrible to my ear!
Adding a room to the equation is what makes for "accurate sound".
In a large arena, you have sound "timing" problems (time it takes for treble/bass/mid to reach you), that are hard to overcome.
You have heard some great SR stuff in your local theater, and some not so good stuff I am sure.:frown:
I did not get a flame suit for X-mas so I will not go either way on this topic.
I was a FOH SR guy for 3 yrs, and can recommend you try these brands if you want to hear some great hybrids (home/studio):

Myer Sound
Bag End
Lexicon
Avalon
Neve
SSL
Apogee
TAD
West Lake
Genelac
Focusrite
Tannoy
Hafler
Dynaudio
Byston

I will add with the intro of self powered speakers, the gap is closing everyday.

TroyD

I was only making a point that a pro-audio amps have been installed in professional edit suites (not live venues).

Now, we were talking going further down the rabbit hole...and you say this:

I will absolutely attribute that to doing pro-audio. Whether that be 20K watt of amplification at medium sized venue or putting in Crown D and PS series amplification in audio and video edit suites.

One can logically conclude that you believe that your pro audio setups are at least as good as a higher end hifi rig (beyond entry level....again, see the original post). You seem to be alluding that your experience with live venues and A/V suites is a basis for this assertion. Again, I'm using your words here. So your statement that you are only claiming the USE of pro audio amps in these venues is not the point. That or you are back peddling.

Please note here that I'm attempting to have a civil discussion. I'm not cursing nor am I insulting you. I'm simply quoting you and asking you to clarify your remarks.

BDT

heiney9

jinjuku wrote: »

Again you guys are the ones wanting to have a 100% disrespectful dialog. It seems easier for you to make fun of, call names, post juvenile pics etc... instead of having a 'conversation'. Again way to wrapped up around the axle.

It's been extremely difficult to have a conversation with you because you dodge around your own subject like Muhammad Ali and never, ever answer a direct question or are able to follow along in a linear manner.

Now your dodging Troy's questions and talking about caps and active speaker control. Sure, on the periphery your discussions are audio related, but never to the questions or observations or your own statements at hand.

It gets old, tiresome, and it gives you ZERO credibility.

H9

reeltrouble1

omg DBX yea lets remix the mix..open the gate, close the gate, compress the dynamic so we can raise the mix, forget what the fellow from mobile fidelity did. The fact that you can change the sound of a mix does not mean you should it means you have a weakness with your system. Any piece of gear placed into the signal chain can only degrade the signal it can never improve it what your suggesting is a band-aid approach to a sympton of bad sound and leads a wall of bad sound.


your bringing nothing new sorry to tell you. been doing that stuff for years on live sound....not something applicable in a postive way to a hi-fi sound system...different animals.

RT1

jinjuku

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

this from the fellow who has built his own internet Santeria Homage to himself and his posts.

stop babbaling. You still have not even attempted to list your budget pro-sound system to compete with any sort of hi-fi sound...mid-fi sound...or even lo-fi sound.

what is the Musicians Friend website down?

RT1

2.0 Speakers: Mission Statements ~$1000 in parts total (drivers, x-overs, MDF)

Source will most likely be a SqBT. I don't know about DAC yet.

Amp: I can take my pick of Adcom, Parasound, Crown. I think you would be hard pressed to pick the 402d from the HCA1000 blind.

It's a straight foward setup with not a lot in the way to color the sound.

So $1500 for the setup.

BTW my HT setup is also in my signature. I really don't think many people here have a .2 that can run with the TC sounds, DCX, EP2500 that I integrated. Especially given the fact that in a few seconds I can drop into the DCX and change it from a HT tuning to a music tuning using a preset.

TroyD

Still waiting, patiently, I might add.

Is that it? That a Crown amp is equivalent to and Adcom or Parasound? Is that the ergo sum of your premise?

BDT

jinjuku

TroyD wrote: »

Now, we were talking going further down the rabbit hole...and you say this:



One can logically conclude that you believe that your pro audio setups are at least as good as a higher end hifi rig (beyond entry level....again, see the original post). You seem to be alluding that your experience with live venues and A/V suites is a basis for this assertion. Again, I'm using your words here. So your statement that you are only claiming the USE of pro audio amps in these venues is not the point. That or you are back peddling.

Please note here that I'm attempting to have a civil discussion. I'm not cursing nor am I insulting you. I'm simply quoting you and asking you to clarify your remarks.

BDT

In a nutshell I am saying that I have used Crown Macrotech in SR and D and PS in the studio. If people would pause for a moment and realize that I never said anything was the be all end all this would be a much more condusive conversation.

There are a few things I am conviced of: Active x-overs are the bomb compared to passives. Using something like a DCX to integrate subs into an HT environment has a ton of upswing. If you don't want to agree than that is fine. Just my opinion. You use what you want.

We are on a forum where the manufacturers most expensive product is $2600 for the pair (LSi 25's on Amazon $1279 per). So I most likely won't be speaking much to $5000 Classe, Belles, Odyssey, Monarchy, etc...

TroyD

1500 for the setup?

Easy.

Maggie MMG's - 600
Jolida JD100 - CD playa - 500 (audiogon on any given day)
Cambridge Audio Azur 640 - 400 on the 'gon.

Allday, allabout.

BDT

jinjuku

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

omg DBX yea lets remix the mix..open the gate, close the gate, compress the dynamic so we can raise the mix, forget what the fellow from mobile fidelity did. The fact that you can change the sound of a mix does not mean you should it means you have a weakness with your system. Any piece of gear placed into the signal chain can only degrade the signal it can never improve it what your suggesting is a band-aid approach to a sympton of bad sound and leads a wall of bad sound.


your bringing nothing new sorry to tell you. been doing that stuff for years on live sound....not something applicable in a postive way to a hi-fi sound system...different animals.

RT1

Then you don't know how to use your gear properly. I have no compressor/limiter/expander/gate function in use. It's xover and a single PEQ.

I am all ears how a passive crossover is better than an active crossover (outside of cost/convenience).