in-wall speaker cable?

TroyD

faster100 wrote: »

Wow are you the new jstas around here :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
it's funny when the tables are turned and im laughing at you and your :mad: and writing three page responses, Full circle, keep digging Troy Happy new year

Sigh...

How could I be the 'new' Jstas? What makes John, John is his passion....which when it comes to you I have none.

As far as you go, you give yourself way too much credit.....I give you about as much thought as I do the **** I just flushed. A curious glance as it circles the drain...and that's about it. So, I'm not sure how you can infer that I'm angry. In fact, you are the one who wanted to make this about you....now, it's possible to infer that, as always, you crave the attention (even negative).

As far as the length of my posts, well, two things. I have to quote you in order to try and make sense of your inane posts and two, since you don't seem to do very well with reading comprehension (some things never change, I guess) I have to spell it out. Now, if I did have a passing curiousity here, Cliff, I'd have to wonder why you bothered to ever come back here?

I mean, laugh all you want at me, I could care less. There are people here that despise me and there are people that love me. The thing is, I give the people who despise me zero power to affect my mood.

Now, I think we've about covered the past and present ....so, back to the subject at hand, do you have any examples of MIT Oracle or any other main stream terminated cables being sold by the foot or are you just going to try and deflect the fact you can't make that dog hunt?

BDT

DMara

madmax wrote: »

Which in-wall speaker cable should I get? It has to be a type which would pass building codes.

madmax wrote: »

The decision has been made: Audioquest FLX-4/2.

The price was good at 0.80 per foot :biggrin:

14 awg is more than adequate for 30' runs to a high efficency speaker of 12 ohm impedance, OFC wire so corrosion won't happen, two conductor so no wrapping wire together before connecting to spades and free shipping even.

Thanks for the suggestions!
madmax

The OP already bought his cables, so this thread is going nowhere with the personal attacks.

F1nut

What personal attacks? There's history here that pre-dates your time, so let it be.

dorokusai

F1nut wrote: »

What personal attacks? There's history here that pre-dates your time, so let it be.

Ahhhh, so much high resolution history to boot, it's the SACD of Club Polk when it comes to Faster100.

TroyD

Yes, the meltdown...or the Full Cliffy....in full splendor is something to behold.

BDT

comfortablycurt

Well, I don't care what anyone says. Wire is priced according to length. This can be proven by the fact that a longer wire costs more than a shorter wire. I'm not referring to the magic voodoo box ripoff cables that cost 40,000...I'm referring to cables that actual real people can afford. How many people in the world are actually USING 30-40,000 dollar cables? Not very many. Those are basically insignificant to this argument, and MIT should be burned at the stake for even having the gall to charge that much for a piece of freakin wire in my opinion. You could buy a small starter house for less money than that.

Are their differences in cabling? Absolutely...but NO cable is worth $40,000, and if you spend $40,000 on a damn cable you are an overly self indulgent, egotistical idiot with way too much money and nothing good to waste it on. People around the world are starving, and others are spending $40,000 on an 8' piece of copper.

Regardless...even with the $40,000 magic voodoo rip off cables, a 10' pair is going to cost more than an 8' pair. Why is this? Because it's LONGER!! No, it's not specifically priced in 1' increments, but to suggest that wire isn't priced by length is absolutely ridiculous. A longer wire costs more than a short wire. Cut and dry. That's all there is to it. There is absolutely no logical way of arguing that point. For some reason some of you seem to think that saying "MIT is sold by the foot", is somehow like comparing it to "off the shelf Home Depot cable". I'm not sure how you're making that connection, since nobody has even suggested anything even remotely close to that...

Look at ANY wire on the internet. You are going to pay more for more length. The math that Jesse did can't even really be considered a logical point. As someone else stated, that comes down to MIT throwing you a bone and giving you the extra two feet "on the cheap"(spoken with the highest possible level of sarcasm). At $40,000, you're already paying enough to put a kid through 4 years of college, buy them a car and help them out with a down payment on their house...so I guess MIT is just "being nice" and cutting you a deal since you're already giving them such a grossly overpriced amount of money. Seriously, I don't care who you are, what you do, what kind of gear you have, or how much money you make...NO cable is worth 40,000 and if anyone here has actually spent $40,000 on a cable, I have basically lost every iota of respect for you for being so ridiculously materialistic and overly self indulgent. There are literally hundreds of millions of better ways to spend that kind of money.

The sad thing there is, that's just for one of the cables!! You've OBVIOUSLY gotta have the matching magic voodoo speaker cables and IC's...which would bring the total system cost for cables up to a couple hundred thousand or so...:rolleyes:

TroyD

Well, I don't care what anyone says. Wire is priced according to length. This can be proven by the fact that a longer wire costs more than a shorter wire.

Nobody is ever going to deny that all things being equal, larger is more expensive. That's pretty much common sense.

Humor me for a minute though, and I don't even have to use 40K cables. Let's go with Signal Cables:

(copied directly from thier website)
Per Stereo Pair Standard Length (6 feet) including terminations

Price per stereo pair - $109.00

Each additional foot (pair) - $6.00

Ok, 109 bucks for a 6 foot pair.....that's 18 bucks and some change per foot. Now, anything OVER 6 feet, you add 6 bucks a foot. So, no, these cables are clearly NOT sold on a 'per foot' basis. If they were, the #'s would come out even. Yes, longer (bigger) costs more...but they aren't sold as if you were buying in bulk. Period. End of discussion. Class dismissed. Thanks for playing.

Now, as far as the 40K for a pair of cables argument goes....I honestly can't believe some of you folks. Would I pay it? In my current circumstances? Of course not....but, lets say that I was in a situation where I could by a 'cost no object' rig? Damn skippy I would. It's like the idiots who bemoan the fact that Stereophile reviews ultra-buck gear. Hell yeah, that's the stuff I want to read about, things I can dream about but never afford.

The argument that 40K is excessive, ok, what isn't? It doesn't matter what # you pick, it's arbitrary by nature. Rationality has nothing to do with it.....the only value that matters is what the individual decides for himself. I sit next to a AF pilot at work, he thinks it's insane what my Quads cost.....on the other hand, I think that his mega-buck Breitling watch doesn't tell time any better than my 10 year old Swiss Army watch that I paid 40 bucks for at the Osan BX years ago. Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

BDT

faster100

TroyD wrote: »

Yes, the meltdown...or the Full Cliffy....in full splendor is something to behold.

BDT

It kills you im NOT melting down, doesn't it.. Nah i'll move on troy, jesse and the like. :biggrin:

TroyD

Frankly, I could care less. It's entertaining to be sure but regardless of your meltdown...the fact that you are a fungus on society is still plenty entertaining.

BTW, I thought you were 'out' on this one?

BDT

comfortablycurt

TroyD wrote: »

Nobody is ever going to deny that all things being equal, larger is more expensive. That's pretty much common sense.

Humor me for a minute though, and I don't even have to use 40K cables. Let's go with Signal Cables:

(copied directly from thier website)
Per Stereo Pair Standard Length (6 feet) including terminations

Price per stereo pair - $109.00

Each additional foot (pair) - $6.00

Ok, 109 bucks for a 6 foot pair.....that's 18 bucks and some change per foot. Now, anything OVER 6 feet, you add 6 bucks a foot. So, no, these cables are clearly NOT sold on a 'per foot' basis. If they were, the #'s would come out even. Yes, longer (bigger) costs more...but they aren't sold as if you were buying in bulk. Period. End of discussion. Class dismissed. Thanks for playing.

Now, as far as the 40K for a pair of cables argument goes....I honestly can't believe some of you folks. Would I pay it? In my current circumstances? Of course not....but, lets say that I was in a situation where I could by a 'cost no object' rig? Damn skippy I would. It's like the idiots who bemoan the fact that Stereophile reviews ultra-buck gear. Hell yeah, that's the stuff I want to read about, things I can dream about but never afford.

The argument that 40K is excessive, ok, what isn't? It doesn't matter what # you pick, it's arbitrary by nature. Rationality has nothing to do with it.....the only value that matters is what the individual decides for himself. I sit next to a AF pilot at work, he thinks it's insane what my Quads cost.....on the other hand, I think that his mega-buck Breitling watch doesn't tell time any better than my 10 year old Swiss Army watch that I paid 40 bucks for at the Osan BX years ago. Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

BDT

Ok...As far as the Signal Cable issue goes...yes, for the first 6 feet I suppose you're paying more "per foot"...but did you not take into account that with the initial charge, you're also paying for the connectors on the cable, along with the termination charge? Perhaps the cost for the connectors and the termination/labor fee is $73, and the cost of the 6' cable is $36 at $6/ft. That would add up to the total $109 cost of the cable. You aren't paying for simply 6' of wire and nothing else, for the initial $109.

Even supposing that this isn't the case...haven't you ever heard of bulk discounts? With just about anything in the world, buying a bigger amount of something costs you less $ per unit in the long run. Be it speaker cable, a group of 10 laptops at wholesale prices...or simply a bigger jar of peanut butter. Buying in bigger amounts costs you less per unit thus, logically, buying a greater length of cable should cost you less $/ft in the long run.



If I was in a cost no object situation, would I spend $40,000 on a pair of cables? Hell no I wouldn't, on sheer principle. MIT(or any other cable manufacturer) has absolutely no way of justifying putting a $40,000 price tag on a damn cable. Regardless of how complex the cable is, I find it basically impossible to believe that the production costs of that cable could even approach a hundredth of that $40,000 price tag. Seriously, how could they? What is it?

It's a piece of copper for starters. Okay...so they get the best oxygen free copper out there. Regardless, it's still copper. Copper is copper is copper is copper. Once it's oxygen free, there's really no way of improving upon it, short of controversial processes such as cryogenic freezing etc...

Then, you've got plastics/vinyls/rubbers/foils for the casing/shielding of the cable. Yes, this costs money...but not that much, especially when they're buying in huge bulk amounts like they obviously would.

You've got the connectors...which we'll call on the high side, and say that it costs them $40-50 each to produce.

Then we've got the voodoo boxes. What the hell's in them? It ain't diamonds or anything like that. It's a series of electrical components...resistors/capacitors etc/I don't really know what because I'm not an engineer, which presumably are of very high quality, but even still, can't really cost that much. Once again, they buy these things in huge bulk amounts.

What do you end up with? A product that cost ridiculously, vastly, obscenely less than $40,000 to produce. I don't see how it could possibly cost more than $500 for MIT to produce a pair of their $40,000 cables...and I can hardly even see it costing them $500.

Add on to that, the fact that nobody in the world(even MIT) seems to know just what the hell it is that those network boxes do...and you've got a $40,000 piece of crap that I've got absolutely no interest in buying whatsoever. Perhaps if there was some kind of logical explanation as to what exactly the network boxes DO, I'd see things differently...but this explanation apparently isn't available. Everytime I've asked on here what the network boxes do, I've been met with answers that all tend to basically add up to "there's magic beans in them thar boxes"...which doesn't really explain much. If there's some technical article that explains what the hell those things do, I've apparently missed it. I'd love to read it. Cuz I know there aren't actually magic beans in the network boxes, but that's apparently what many of you seem to think.

I'm just very skeptical about a product that costs $40,000, and makes no attempt to explain to you what it does, or how it goes about doing it. Call me crazy I guess.

So, to answer your question, in a cost no object scenario...no, I would not spend $200,000 on cables for my stereo(because obviously one $40,000 cable won't connect your entire system). Sure, I'd spend a little bit on some cables, but I doubt I'd end up spending more than a couple thousand dollars at the most. I believe in the differences in cables to a minimal degree, but I also believe in the ability of companies such as MIT to take advantage of foolish people with way too much money, and a desire to have "bragging rights"...the biggest, the best...

I know there's a representative from MIT on Club Polk here, and I know that MANY of the members here use MIT cables. I'm hoping that at least one of you knows what the hell those magic voodoo boxes do, and will be able to explain it to me.

Here's the only information that I can find on MIT's site that's even remotely close to this question...

"So, what is the difference between an audio cable and an
audio interface? Simply put, an audio cable is a piece of wire that is
used to make a random connection between audio components. An
interface is an engineered component that is purposefully designed to
efficiently transport energy, with a predetermined bandwidth, from one
component to another. "

Ok...so MIT cables aren't cables...they're audio interfaces. What is an audio interface? It's an engineered component that is purposefully designed to efficiently transport energy, with a predetermined bandwidth, from one component to another. Ok...so what the hell is a cable then? A cable is apparently definitely not an engineered component that is purposefully designed to
efficiently transport energy, with a predetermined bandwidth, from one
component to another? No...it's apparently a "piece of wire that's used to make a random connection". What the hell is a random connection? Closing your eyes and hoping that you plug the cable into something? Plug it in and you don't know what you're gonna get? Sounds like MIT is making up terms here...

It sounds to me as if an audio cable and an audio interface are exactly the same thing.



Sorry if I'm rambling here, but this topic has annoyed me for a long time. It's almost as if asking "what the hell do the network boxes do" is a taboo subject that people just aren't supposed to bring up. They're just supposed to blindly believe that these cables...err...audio interfaces do whatever the hell it is that...well...whatever they claim to do? What the hell is it that they even claim to do? I don't recall ever even reading THAT anywhere!! These cables cost $40,000, but they won't tell you what they're supposed to do...they won't tell you why or how they designed the cables to do what it is that they don't want you to know that they're supposed to do.

Forgive me for being confused here. I guess I'm just crazy for not blindly believing that a $40,000 cable is somehow, for some inexplicable reason...actually worth it. Personally, I'd never even spend $40,000 on a pair of speakers...in a cost no object situation, I probably still wouldn't even spend $40,000 on an entire stereo! It's just on sheer principle. The same can be said of anything. I don't care how nice they are, there aren't any speakers in the world that are actually worth paying $150,000.

I'm betting that I still won't get an answer to my question...lmao

reeltrouble1

no I am laughing my **** off and listening to much better stuff including wire with boxes, what a moronic post, really, go stand in the corner, unzip and amuse yourself, better yet you might try looking in the corner of a round room for your magic penny.

RT1

tonyb

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

better yet you might try looking in the corner of a round room for your magic penny.

RT1

Now that there is funny.....:biggrin::biggrin:

TroyD

Ok...As far as the Signal Cable issue goes...yes, for the first 6 feet I suppose you're paying more "per foot"...but did you not take into account that with the initial charge, you're also paying for the connectors on the cable, along with the termination charge? Perhaps the cost for the connectors and the termination/labor fee is $73, and the cost of the 6' cable is $36 at $6/ft. That would add up to the total $109 cost of the cable. You aren't paying for simply 6' of wire and nothing else, for the initial $109.

What schools do you people go to? You 'suppose' that you are paying more per foot? Take out the 'suppose', you are. It's 18.166666. 73 bucks for termination? That's retarded because Frank ain't going to sell you unterminated cable for 6 bucks a foot. Why would ANYONE pay for terminated cable because you can buy what he uses for terminator for a couple of bucks (if that) and solder them yourself. What you are saying is so devoid of logic that I honestly can't even counter it.

Even supposing that this isn't the case...haven't you ever heard of bulk discounts? With just about anything in the world, buying a bigger amount of something costs you less $ per unit in the long run. Be it speaker cable, a group of 10 laptops at wholesale prices...or simply a bigger jar of peanut butter. Buying in bigger amounts costs you less per unit thus, logically, buying a greater length of cable should cost you less $/ft in the long run.

You betcha, I know about buying in bulk...but that's not what you are arguing. You are changing the discussion because your original premise has a huge gaping hole in it. From 6 feet to 7 feet, using my example, does not constitute buying in bulk. It's simply a case of Frank saying that he needs to sell his product at 'X' dollars per unit to make an acceptable profit. If you want a different size he'll sell it to you for 'X' plus and add'l 'Y' per foot. It's not buying in bulk...apples and oranges

Ok, as for your inane rambling on cables. You are making a completely emotional and arbitrary appeal that is no less arbitrary than me saying that I would pay $40K for a pair of cables.

You think it's ridiculous and you don't believe in it. Ok, I got it. I was tracking the first time. Now, let us apply some logic here. Take a deep breath and follow the logic.

Value is a concept that is completely dependent on the person who applies the concept. Meaning, you and I can look at the same thing and based on our own point of view have a completely different conclusion. Neither one is an absolute. Your assesment is just as arbitary as mine. There is no 'right' answer.

Now, let's say that both of us had 'X' number of dollars of disposable income. It could be a hundred bucks or a million....the actual number is completely irrelevant. You decide to spend you 'X' number of dollars on a high end watch and I spend mine on a high end cameral. Now, we each think that our items represent a good value but we also think that the other is nuts. Who is right?

Obviously, there is no absolute answer. If you are happy with your decision and I'm happy with mine....whodafuk is anyone else to question it?

Yeah, I get it. It eats you up that someone has 40K to drop on something that you can't...that you'd love to have that coin to put your kid through college. I get it. That's YOUR bias. It's not a moral absolute.

Also, I have a very nice set of MIT cables. I like them. I think they represent a pretty good ROI for my disposable income. You may disagree....and you are welcome to but that doesn't make you 'right' and me 'wrong'.

BDT

TroyD

Oh, and in case CC is sitting there smugly saying 'aha! still not answering my question!'

Ok, here is the answer to your question about the network boxes. I don't have the first damn clue. It is, however, irrelevant. I'm not mechanically inclined.....I don't know how half the **** on my car works, but that doesn't stop me from buying the one that I like, now does it?

It could be the mythical flux capacitor for all I know....but it doesn't matter.

Now, for the record, I don't have the foggiest idea of how the MIT Oracles sound or if I would buy them if I had the means....I'm just saying that your contention has no real merit for anyone but yourself.

BDT

mantis

F1nut wrote: »

What personal attacks? There's history here that pre-dates your time, so let it be.

And I thought our little thing was getting good , we don't compare to all this man ,I'm sitting back watching all this madness over in wall speaker wire.
Funny isn't it?:cool:

TroyD

heh heh heh....see all the fun you are missing out on, Dan?

Hope you had a great holiday season, BTW.

BDT

hearingimpared

TroyD wrote: »

Nobody is ever going to deny that all things being equal, larger is more expensive. That's pretty much common sense.

Humor me for a minute though, and I don't even have to use 40K cables. Let's go with Signal Cables:

(copied directly from thier website)
Per Stereo Pair Standard Length (6 feet) including terminations

Price per stereo pair - $109.00

Each additional foot (pair) - $6.00

Ok, 109 bucks for a 6 foot pair.....that's 18 bucks and some change per foot. Now, anything OVER 6 feet, you add 6 bucks a foot. So, no, these cables are clearly NOT sold on a 'per foot' basis. If they were, the #'s would come out even. Yes, longer (bigger) costs more...but they aren't sold as if you were buying in bulk. Period. End of discussion. Class dismissed. Thanks for playing.

Now, as far as the 40K for a pair of cables argument goes....I honestly can't believe some of you folks. Would I pay it? In my current circumstances? Of course not....but, lets say that I was in a situation where I could by a 'cost no object' rig? Damn skippy I would. It's like the idiots who bemoan the fact that Stereophile reviews ultra-buck gear. Hell yeah, that's the stuff I want to read about, things I can dream about but never afford.

The argument that 40K is excessive, ok, what isn't? It doesn't matter what # you pick, it's arbitrary by nature. Rationality has nothing to do with it.....the only value that matters is what the individual decides for himself. I sit next to a AF pilot at work, he thinks it's insane what my Quads cost.....on the other hand, I think that his mega-buck Breitling watch doesn't tell time any better than my 10 year old Swiss Army watch that I paid 40 bucks for at the Osan BX years ago. Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

BDT

BINGO!!! was his namo!!!

One step further and this is probably me being Mr. Obvious but Signal charges $109 for their "Per Stereo Pair Standard Length (6 feet) including terminations" right, right! So now let's consider, R & D, labor, parts, overhead, etc that go into one set of cables! There you have your $18 per foot he (Frank) is not going to charge $18 just to cut a longer foot off the spool to make the cable, no it's $6.00. Why there is any argument about this is beyond me.

As far as a "rip off" pair of cables. Curt I like you alot bro but you know better than to say something like that without sharing your experience about THAT cable. You sound like the naysayers who are always raling against high end gear and have never tried it.

EDIT; whoops read down a little further and saw redundancy . . . my bad!

hearingimpared

TroyD wrote: »

heh heh heh....see all the fun you are missing out on, Dan?

Hope you had a great holiday season, BTW.

BDT

I caught the last few months of that saga and I'm tellin' ya, being a new guy back then I was laughing my **** off!!!

Nothing has changed Cliff!!! I don't know you but I remember you PMing me way back when and patting my rump for disagreeing with Troy and Brett at the time. You signed off with, and I'll never forget this, "gotta go, I have continue my fight with Troy and Brett!" Nothing changes if nothing changes. The only thing different in this new saga is that I've haven't seen Brett chime in but nothing else has changed.

DarqueKnight

mantis wrote: »

Don't take it that way , it's what I have learned in my years hangin out with Engineers who design amps , speakers and such. I ask all the time what is the preferred wire and I always get the gauge and length thing.

You may want to talk to some telecommunications company engineers for a different perspective. There is much more to wire than gauge and length. The Bell Laboratories Technical Journal has many articles going back decades that describe how wire performance can be changed and improved by differences in the dielectric properties of insulation, impurities in the metal, grain structure of the metal, twist geometry and conductor material. Even the way metal is drawn into wire affects its electrical properties.

Just because someone has an engineering degree it does not mean they have a depth of understanding of a particular engineering topic. Regrettably, some engineers think that the fundamental rules they learned in their undergraduate engineering program is all there is to it. If that were true, there wouldn't be much need for continuing research and graduate engineering programs. Wire performance cannot be completely, or even mostly, explained by gauge, length and Ohm's Law. These three simple concepts only begin to scratch the surface of what actually goes on when a stream of electrons interacts with a metal conductor at the molecular and atomic levels.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Are their differences in cabling? Absolutely...but NO cable is worth $40,000, and if you spend $40,000 on a damn cable you are an overly self indulgent, egotistical idiot with way too much money and nothing good to waste it on. People around the world are starving, and others are spending $40,000 on an 8' piece of copper.

I can understand your outrage, but aren't there more wasteful pursuits to be mad about? For example, have you ever paid several thousand dollars for a diamond ring? Some people cheerfully pay hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars for what is essentially a highly polished rock. I mean, people around the world are starving, and others are spending $1,000,000+ on a small piece of carbon that spends most of the time in a vault, safe deposit box, or jewelry box.

Even if I had Bill Gates money, I wouldn't spend $1,000,000+ on a small piece of carbon. I also wouldn't say that the people who spend their discretionary income on small sparkly pieces of carbon are self indulgent, egotistical idiots. For all I know, the people who are spending $1,000,000+ on polished carbon rocks might be spending 10X that amount on charities. However, even if they spend $10 mil on diamonds and give $0 to charities, that is their right.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Seriously, I don't care who you are, what you do, what kind of gear you have, or how much money you make...NO cable is worth 40,000 and if anyone here has actually spent $40,000 on a cable, I have basically lost every iota of respect for you for being so ridiculously materialistic and overly self indulgent. There are literally hundreds of millions of better ways to spend that kind of money.

Some might lose every iota of respect for you for being so arrogant and condescending that you feel entitled to tell other people how they should spend their disposable income. Who are you to say how people should spend their hard earned?

comfortablycurt wrote: »

If I was in a cost no object situation, would I spend $40,000 on a pair of cables? Hell no I wouldn't, on sheer principle. MIT(or any other cable manufacturer) has absolutely no way of justifying putting a $40,000 price tag on a damn cable. Regardless of how complex the cable is, I find it basically impossible to believe that the production costs of that cable could even approach a hundredth of that $40,000 price tag. Seriously, how could they? What is it?

Why don't you call or write to them and ask? Audioquest is very forthcoming about the high costs of the winding machinery that produce their cables.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

It's a piece of copper for starters. Okay...so they get the best oxygen free copper out there. Regardless, it's still copper. Copper is copper is copper is copper. Once it's oxygen free, there's really no way of improving upon it, short of controversial processes such as cryogenic freezing etc...

That is not true.

Look up US patent number 4605056 (Dr. Atsumi Ohno, Ohno, “Process and apparatus for the horizontal continuous casting of a metal molding”, U.S. Patent 4605056, August 12, 1986). PCOCC copper (Ultra-Pure Copper by Ohno Continuous Casting Process) is an improved copper with a single metal crystal structure that improves the noise performance of the copper. This copper is made in limited quantities at a single factory in Japan.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Then, you've got plastics/vinyls/rubbers/foils for the casing/shielding of the cable. Yes, this costs money...but not that much, especially when they're buying in huge bulk amounts like they obviously would.

By this same reasoning, auto manufacturers should not be charging ten of thousands, and sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars for automobiles that only have a few hundred dollars of raw material costs.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Once again, they buy these things in huge bulk amounts.

This is not always true of high cost, limited production items. How many $40,000 cable pairs do you think MIT reasonable expects to sell worldwide? Of the relatively few people (millionaires) who can afford this cable, how many are audiophiles? Of those rich audiophiles, how many are interested in MIT cables?

In addition to the raw material costs, there are research and development costs, labor, marketing, packaging, manufacturing costs, etc.

An automobile may only have $500 in material costs. How much do you think the factory costs that will turn that $500 lump of metal, plastic and rubber into an automobile? Would a few million dollars be a reasonable guess? What would you guess the yearly electric bill is for a *small* auto assembly plant?

comfortablycurt wrote: »

What do you end up with? A product that cost ridiculously, vastly, obscenely less than $40,000 to produce. I don't see how it could possibly cost more than $500 for MIT to produce a pair of their $40,000 cables...and I can hardly even see it costing them $500.

Have you worked or do you work for a wire and cable manufacturer? From what informed sources and experience do you draw your insights?

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Sorry if I'm rambling here, but this topic has annoyed me for a long time. It's almost as if asking "what the hell do the network boxes do" is a taboo subject that people just aren't supposed to bring up. They're just supposed to blindly believe that these cables...err...audio interfaces do whatever the hell it is that...well...whatever they claim to do? What the hell is it that they even claim to do? I don't recall ever even reading THAT anywhere!! These cables cost $40,000, but they won't tell you what they're supposed to do...they won't tell you why or how they designed the cables to do what it is that they don't want you to know that they're supposed to do.

Since you have no interest in the product, why do you care how it works? Even if MIT sent a team of engineers to your home and they spent a week going over the technical details of their $40K cable in painstaking detail, you would still be mad at them for daring to offer such a cable...because there are other, more appropriate things for rich people to spend their money on...right?

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Forgive me for being confused here. I guess I'm just crazy for not blindly believing that a $40,000 cable is somehow, for some inexplicable reason...actually worth it. Personally, I'd never even spend $40,000 on a pair of speakers...in a cost no object situation, I probably still wouldn't even spend $40,000 on an entire stereo! It's just on sheer principle. The same can be said of anything. I don't care how nice they are, there aren't any speakers in the world that are actually worth paying $150,000.

Some people buy diamonds for bragging rights. Others buy them for their beauty.

Several years ago, I would have never considered spending a few thousand dollars on a phono cartridge. Now, I think nothing of it. Did I buy an Ortofon MC Windfeld ($3750) for bragging rights? No, not at all. I simply wanted more resolution from my analog rig. I went through a succession of phono cartridges starting at those which sold for under $100. The MC Windfeld is not for the first time buyer or someone inexperienced in proper analog playback system setup, evaluation and listening techniques.

Likewise, MIT's, or any company's high line merchandise, is aimed at those who have some knowledge and experience in the merchandise's field and can appreciate the higher quality and performance.

Hope this helps.

TroyD

Thing is Joe, that Cliff is like Don Quioxte fighting the windmills.

I like to argue, I'm pretty good at it....but I don't take it personally. Wires, cables whatever, the problem most people have....fatal flaw, actually, is that they remove logic and subsitute emotion. It doesn't fly.

Now, where I do get touch with Cliff is that his business practices have been pretty shady. He knows it, there are a bunch of us here that know it....but that's a horse of a different color in this case.

BDT

TroyD

Just read DK's post. Wow. Spot on, but WOW.

BDT

Face

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Look up US patent number 4605056 (Dr. Atsumi Ohno, Ohno, “Process and apparatus for the horizontal continuous casting of a metal molding”, U.S. Patent 4605056, August 12, 1986). PCOCC copper (Ultra-Pure Copper by Ohno Continuous Casting Process) is an improved copper with a single metal crystal structure that improves the noise performance of the copper. This copper is made in limited quantities at a single factory in Japan.

This is what I use in all the interconnects I make for myself. When I have some extra cash I intend on making a pair of speaker cables out of it.

reeltrouble1

The draught that drags this place are the repeated echoes, same skeptic crap we heard 8 yers ago, save the flavor of the month/year crowd. So if someone tells you something should be one way and someone tells you something different too many here now just choose which to believe and spout their feelings as some sort of Dali when in fact their daffadills....time was we actually listened to things here, then the trolls came, Justin left and it became the time of the dumbass at Club Polk since this place is now motivated by the almighty dollar.

I hear big differences in wire types, of course I use hi-fi gear and each should listen to what works well with their gear, of course its much easier to just dismiss the work and believe someone else's personal agenda testament.

The number of dumb asses at Club Polk is directly proportional to the heigth of the flashing neon sign times the number of flashing bulbs inside the directional arrow.

RT1

DarqueKnight

But listening, studying and learning is soooooooooooo much work.:frown:

F1nut

comfortablycurt wrote: »

There are literally hundreds of millions of better ways to spend that kind of money.

Like for an ounce?

hearingimpared

comfortablycurt wrote: »

There are literally hundreds of millions of better ways to spend that kind of money.

The sad thing there is, that's just for one of the cables!! You've OBVIOUSLY gotta have the matching magic voodoo speaker cables and IC's...which would bring the total system cost for cables up to a couple hundred thousand or so...:rolleyes:

Curt, I don't get your angst here. People spend their money as they see fit and what makes them happy regarless of price in many cases. I don't see how you can make the statement "literally hundreds of millions of better ways to spend that kind of money!" How about starting it off with "IMHO!"

Jesse makes a great point above. You smoke that funny stuff, you don't hesistiate to pay the price. I don't smoke that stuff and find it a silly waste of money but I don't rale on you for paying the price of the stuff because you thoroughly enjoy it. I'm not going to rale on you about the fact that it is illegal or that it's bad for your brain etc. You enjoy it, it seems to make your life easier so have at it!!!

I just don't get where you are coming from Bro. Perhaps you are a little cranking from the pain of your healing process and I'm sorry if that's the case but I got to tell you, your logic and your, well kind of rantings, are not the Curt we know.

Sure you have stong opinions but to tell people how they should spend their hard earned dough plus ridicule them for "buying rip off cables" doesn't entirely match your persona!

When I was on heavy duty pain meds three years ago, I was coming here and rambling and causing a stir until Jesse called me and straightened me out. If it's the drugs talking and I'm saying if, then perhaps you should refrain from posting until you are in a better frame of mind.

Don't let this come back to bite you in the rear end Bro . . . you're a good guy!

blueboxer

I like gold fish crackers. Yum...

mantis

TroyD wrote: »

heh heh heh....see all the fun you are missing out on, Dan?

Hope you had a great holiday season, BTW.

BDT

It reminds me of old times Troy.

The holidays where good here , to good on the waist line , now I gotta work off an extra 10 lbs LOL.

I hope you and your families holiday was nice.

reeltrouble1

I know Max had a good Chuck....le.

Sans the moaning....

Cables Matter.

Oh and Tubes Rule.

RT1.....the thing about cliffie....he takes his whoopin....without the mod whining...

reeltrouble1

I know Max had a good Chuck....le.

Sans the moaning....

Cables Matter.

Oh and Tubes Rule.

RT1.....the thing about cliffie....he takes his whoopin....without the mod whining...